Unite Network Rail Strikes Off

[Starmill]

So you expect Guards to vote for the abolishment of their role yes? Would you?

The government asked for the RMT to accept the principle of DOO, not to actually agree it, and certainly not to actually make the staff leave the business.

RMT policy is that they object to the principle itself. Which is a bit odd given where it is used.

 

[Carlisle]

RMT's objection is with the very principle of driver only trains. They still object to the closure of ticket offices, but they wouldn't object to the principle of a consultation through the usual Schedule 17 process, as they would then be able to use that to effectively campaign agaiinst it

Sounds similar to what happened during the RMTs GWR DCO dispute where retention of proper buffet counters on IET stock also formed part of that particular campaign but quietly forgotten once guards retained full control of their dispatch process .

 

[Islineclear3_1]

So do we know exactly what the RMT dispute is about now?

Is it just the prospect of possible redundancies for guards if DOO is rolled out further or are there other factors, apart from pay? Isn't there a system of redeployment/suitable alternative employment?

 

[yoyothehobo]

So is the reason that the RMT havent accepted in NR because of DOO for guards?

I honestly cant see the pay offered going any higher, especially with unions already accepting the offer elsewhere in NR.

Modernising maintenance will happen with or without a payrise, NR have made that clear.

No compulsory redundancies is on the table.

What is the RMT after at NR?

 

[gazzaa2]

RMT can't underestimate the government resolve on this.

The intermittent strikes are basically pointless now. They've got 2 options. Either a blanket ban on overtime until the dispute is resolved (this effectively renders much of the railways unusable given the reliance on overtime), or an all-out strike until it's resolved.

I think the strike action over Christmas with the engineering works was a last throw of the dice from RMT, hoping it'd make them want to avoid losing all those works but they just don't care. The blanket ban on overtime seems their only realistic option now going into next year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I did think all-out strikes were a thing of the past as people couldn't afford them, but there have been some on a number of Arriva local companies, including one on Merseyside that lasted months and was well supported.

Certainly an all-out strike would get Government attention, though they'd probably on the other hand like the money saved.

 

[Kite159]

And unless the RMT start digging into their pockets to pay the staff for striking I can't see a never ending overtime ban/all-out strikes lasting long before the staff decide enough is enough and cross the picket line as they can't simply afford to lose more money.

The long bus strikes lasted as long due to Unite paying off the workers to carry on striking

 

[Annetts key]

So is the reason that the RMT havent accepted in NR because of DOO for guards?

I honestly cant see the pay offered going any higher, especially with unions already accepting the offer elsewhere in NR.

Modernising maintenance will happen with or without a payrise, NR have made that clear.

No compulsory redundancies is on the table.

What is the RMT after at NR?

The DOO issue is nothing to do with the dispute with Network Rail employees. The RMT is well aware of the law.

Why would the decisions of the two other unions (who combined have a fraction of railway members compared to the RMT) make any difference to RMT members? Keep in mind that most of the modernising maintenance changes won’t affect the vast majority of TSSA members.

Question: If Network Rail do intend on pushing forward with modernising maintenance (which in my humble opinion is actually more like going backwards in the way that employees are treated and the way that the infrastructure is maintained), then why does the company continue to ask the RMT to accept it?

Why did they not start the process of consultation for modernising maintenance months ago?

Why has the company spent so much time and effort making sure that everyone knows that it’s the (so called) savings from modernising maintenance that will fund the pay rise for all Network Rail employees if modernising maintenance was happening regardless?

Finally, why link modernising maintenance and the ‘pay offer’?

If modernising maintenance does come in as it is detailed currently, the result is likely to be more existing employees leaving, and the number of new employees that stay after joining also falling. Already Network Rail has problems with the number of apprentices leaving being at very high rates.

Trust has broken down between Network Rail and the employees.

 

[yoyothehobo]

So can you tell me what the RMT do want at Network Rail?

Assuming Modernising Maintenance will be happening (it will).

 

[Annetts key]

So can you tell me what the RMT do want at Network Rail?

Assuming Modernising Maintenance will be happening (it will).

Just because Network Rail say that all the modernising maintenance changes will be happening does not mean that the Network Rail employees have to roll over and accept it.

What Network Rail want significantly affects the jobs and the way of working for nearly all maintenance staff (including CAPEX and Works Delivery).

What would you do if your employer turned your world upside down?

 

[gazzaa2]

And unless the RMT start digging into their pockets to pay the staff for striking I can't see a never ending overtime ban/all-out strikes lasting long before the staff decide enough is enough and cross the picket line as they can't simply afford to lose more money.

The long bus strikes lasted as long due to Unite paying off the workers to carry on striking

But if they want any hope of getting what they want they need to do something drastic. The government are winning at the moment because they've got the iron will to not back down. They've seen through 6 months of intermittent strikes without batting an eye lid and can always call in all favours from the press in terms of coverage and support.

As it stands the impasse will just continue until a change of government which is realistically a couple of years away at least and no pay rises.

 

[Bishopstone]

As it stands the impasse will just continue until a change of government which is realistically a couple of years away at least and no pay rises.

Whenever the next Labour government gets in, it will prioritise the health service, social care and schools (in that order, probably). There won’t be a bonanza for the rail industry, staffed mostly by members of a union which disaffiliated from the Labour party many years ago.

I would caution against rail staff (and posties!) holding-out for a Starmer windfall.

 

[Silverlinky]

Its a strange state of affairs when at LNR the one day ASLEF strikes mean no services run, and now the 24 hour TSSA strike means that no services will run on 28th or 29th December, yet on RMT strike days they continue to run a train service using contingent staff and these staff are also supplementing the SC's currently during the overtime ban meaning far less disruption that would otherwise be expected.

A lot of pain being felt by RMT members for what appears to be little effect at least on this TOC.

 

[exbrel]

And unless the RMT start digging into their pockets to pay the staff for striking I can't see a never ending overtime ban/all-out strikes lasting long before the staff decide enough is enough and cross the picket line as they can't simply afford to lose more money.

The long bus strikes lasted as long due to Unite paying off the workers to carry on striking

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2022 ==

so what is the strike pay,

 

[jayah]

So you expect Guards to vote for the abolishment of their role yes? Would you?

DOO already exists.

Most people are employed on the basis of the value they add, and don't have to go on strike to prove they still have a worrhwhile role to perform.

Ironically those striking are also destroying the businesses that funds their ongoing employment.

I don't expect turkeys will vote for Christmas, but the men in grey suits should have removed this opportunity for self harm and reality denial, decades ago.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2022 ==

This is nothing to do with nationalisation or not.

Even if the franchise system had survived its own internal contradictions, it would not be able to overcome the Government no longer being willing to drown everyone in a river of money.

If the Franchises had gone over the heads of the government and agreed the pay deals they would inevitably have gone bust when the government refused to increase their subsidy payments accordingly.

Nationalisation didn't destroy the sacred river of money on which the growth of the franchise era was built, the changing socio-economic landscape did.

Everything to do with nationalisation.

You have gone from 20 buyers of labour, to a cash strapped monopoly that doesn't care about service quality.

There is a pecking order of deserving cases for public money and rail workers are a long way down it.

So it was before 1995 - everything to do with nationalisation!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2022 ==

Maybe not, but a policy of curtailing permanent chaos, disruption and cuts on the railway could appeal to voters.

There will be far more public outrage if rail workers get a lot more than nurses are being offered, and the consequences for borrowing and inflation from this public sector pay round are significant.

The government shows no sign of caring about quality in any public service delivery - the cloth will be cut whichever way is most convenient.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Everything to do with nationalisation.
You have gone from 20 buyers of labour, to a cash strapped monopoly that doesn't care about service quality.
There is a pecking order of deserving cases for public money and rail workers are a long way down it.
So it was before 1995 - everything to do with nationalisation!

Added to which, my perception is that rail wages (at TOCs certainly) have done very well after 25 years of negotiating with private TOCs, unlike nurses/care workers/teachers who have been under the public sector cosh all that time.
And yet the unions have been trying to get rid of the private employers on the railway from the start.
I think the government will want to achieve major changes in T&Cs before agreeing to give "GBR", or whatever it becomes, the arms' length relationship the industry desires.

 

[jayah]

And unless the RMT start digging into their pockets to pay the staff for striking I can't see a never ending overtime ban/all-out strikes lasting long before the staff decide enough is enough and cross the picket line as they can't simply afford to lose more money.

The long bus strikes lasted as long due to Unite paying off the workers to carry on striking

They should raise the contracted working week to 37-38hrs and the nominal salary figure accordingly.

It would be a win, win on salary, it would protect staff earnings from either side weaponising overtime and mitigate the huge and permanent service cuts looming when the timetable that can be delivered using the current workforce and 35hr contracts becomes apparent.

 

[Annetts key]

They should raise the contracted working week to 37-38hrs and the nominal salary figure accordingly.

It would be a win, win on salary, it would protect staff earnings from either side weaponising overtime and mitigate the huge and permanent service cuts looming when the timetable that can be delivered using the current workforce and 35hr contracts becomes apparent.

Well that shows how much you know. Some existing staff are on 40 hours (average per week) contracts. And there is overtime in these workplaces.

Elsewhere, some existing staff have committed Sundays as part of their contract, that effectively adds the length of the Sunday turn of duty (8 to 12 hours) to their working week.

 

[HSTEd]

Everything to do with nationalisation.

You have gone from 20 buyers of labour, to a cash strapped monopoly that doesn't care about service quality.

20 buyers of labour who can only operate with sign off from the state and with the help of subsidies (direct or indirect) from the Treasury.

 

[yorksrob]

DOO already exists.

Most people are employed on the basis of the value they add, and don't have to go on strike to prove they still have a worrhwhile role to perform.

Ironically those striking are also destroying the businesses that funds their ongoing employment.

I don't expect turkeys will vote for Christmas, but the men in grey suits should have removed this opportunity for self harm and reality denial, decades ago.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2022 ==


Everything to do with nationalisation.

You have gone from 20 buyers of labour, to a cash strapped monopoly that doesn't care about service quality.

There is a pecking order of deserving cases for public money and rail workers are a long way down it.

So it was before 1995 - everything to do with nationalisation!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2022 ==


There will be far more public outrage if rail workers get a lot more than nurses are being offered, and the consequences for borrowing and inflation from this public sector pay round are significant.

The government shows no sign of caring about quality in any public service delivery - the cloth will be cut whichever way is most convenient.

Rail workers appear to be asking for less than the nurses, so that seems unlikely. If government had left negotiations to the industry, things might be done and dusted by now, with the government being able to hail a below inflation pay award.

 

[Chester1]

The announcement of regulated fare rise of 5.9% probably sets the limit of any pay offer. The government will argue any larger pay increase will require a larger fare increase. The reality is more complicated but its a good way of undermining public support for strikes. The argument that below inflation fare rises require below inflation pay increases for rail staff will cut through with many people.

My 2 cents on DOO is that the public can be won over if they are reassured that there will be a second person onboard long term. For instance if DfT decide to make St Pancras - Corby DOO they should replace guards with OBS on the route and introduce OBS on Great Northern services. The latter should have a second person onboard and with a reduction in fare dodging OBS could potentially pay for themselves.

 

[gazzaa2]

Whenever the next Labour government gets in, it will prioritise the health service, social care and schools (in that order, probably). There won’t be a bonanza for the rail industry, staffed mostly by members of a union which disaffiliated from the Labour party many years ago.

I would caution against rail staff (and posties!) holding-out for a Starmer windfall.

I wouldn't say they're holding out for that, the RMT will not want 2 more years of this at all, but it doesn't seem to bother the government at all, they're thriving on the battle. The difference with a Labour government is they'd want to get around the table and sort it out, you'd assume, the Tories are not interested.

If this carries on until the end of 2024 then it'll be cataclysmic for the railways.

 

[Annetts key]

I’ve been sent some interesting bits from Rail Business UK

Many managers have told Rail Business UK that they ‘are reaching breaking point’, fed up that they are no longer able to make decisions. One says that they are ‘not sure DfT knows the damage it is doing to the industry and we’re fed up with being told they know best and we’re a bunch of idiots.’

Suggestions from Whitehall that agency staff could be drafted in to deliver services during future strikes ‘show the level of ignorance’ within DfT. Noting the safety implications, the insider insisted ‘we will not be doing that’,

It is clear that the current level of government control is causing mounting concern within the private sector over its future involvement in the industry. ‘DfT seems to think that there will always be an outsourcing contractor who will come along and work on a wafer-thin margin’, reports another insider. ‘But you’ll lose a load of experience and when things go wrong there will be nobody who knows how to get out of it.’

Within the senior DfT management team, at least one member is described as having ‘leanings towards Serpell’. David Serpell was the civil servant who authored a January 1983 report which included an option to reduce the length of the network by 84% to achieve what was at the time termed ‘a purely commercial rail network’.
It is understood that DfT’s budget for the passenger railway for 2023-24 remains the same as for 2022-23, while for 2024-25 a further £1bn is removed from the funding available. However, given rising inflation and other costs, even a flat budget is likely to equate to a real-terms cut of at least 10% in available expenditure. As result, significant cuts to rail provision are being drawn up by several operators, with one TOC proposing replacing trains with buses on at least one branch line. Other areas being ‘forensically’ examined by DfT include onboard catering. Some TOC Managing Directors have already been warning stakeholders to ‘get used to’ permanently shorter train formations and overcrowded services on leisure flows.

I can’t quote all that I have, not while using a mobile.
I don’t currently have a link to post. If/when I find one, I’ll edit this post.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I can’t quote all that I have, not while using a mobile.
I don’t currently have a link to post. If/when I find one, I’ll edit this post.

It looks like this item from Railway Gazette reviews the same information:

Rail leaders frustrated as DfT tightens grip and cuts loom

UK: Rail Business UK has taken soundings from across the train operating companies, Network Rail and from sources close to the Department for Transport, finding a bleak outlook. Industry leaders fear having to implement stark cuts to rail provision, even if the industrial relations issues...

www.railwaygazette.com

Just over a year ago when Rail Business UK surveyed the UK rail sector’s senior management about the post-Covid outlook, there was a consensus that without action to drive forward reform, two decades of growing rail use could come to a jarring halt.
Today, 13 months on, the situation is much bleaker: industrial relations strife is paralysing much of the network, long-awaited plans to create a ‘guiding mind’ under Great British Railways are seemingly in abeyance, and train operators and Network Rail are wilting under unprecedented government micro-management.

As things stand, the outlook for the immediate future seems exceptionally challenging, with little imminent hope of rapid resolution to the various industrial disputes involving operators, NR and the two largest rail trade unions.
In addition, significant cuts to services are now in prospect: Rail Business UK can reveal that an operator has already offered to cease running trains on one route to save money; indications are that this is not a one-off proposal. Meanwhile, the Department for Transport has ordered Great Western Railway to withdraw its 16 refurbished ‘Castle Class’ IC125 trainsets over the next 12 months, without replacement, which is likely to lead to a sharp reduction in the number of trains running between Plymouth and Penzance, even if some services are covered by reallocated Class 802 trainsets.
Chiltern Railways and CrossCountry are under pressure to withdraw their loco-hauled and HST trains on cost grounds despite struggling to manage severe overcrowding against a backdrop of little to no fleet investment over the past decade and more.

This retrenchment comes in the context of DfT having static rail budget for 2023-24, which is in real terms a cut of around 10% because of inflation, and a reduction in available funding of around £1bn in the following financial year.

The rest is too long to quote, but is equally insightful.

 

[RPI]

I've always been amazed at the Unions obsession with Nationalising the railway, now that's what we've effectively got and its gone massively down hill.

The franchising system was far from perfect but it allowed operators some commercial freedom and an opportunity to raise revenue through the fare box, truth is, under actual privatisation we wouldn't be in this current situation, we'd have had a pay rise and there wouldn't be mass disruption to suppress demand.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Its a strange state of affairs when at LNR the one day ASLEF strikes mean no services run, and now the 24 hour TSSA strike means that no services will run on 28th or 29th December, yet on RMT strike days they continue to run a train service using contingent staff and these staff are also supplementing the SC's currently during the overtime ban meaning far less disruption that would otherwise be expected.

A lot of pain being felt by RMT members for what appears to be little effect at least on this TOC.

There are no contingency staff working on non-RMT strike dates (or shouldn't be as that isn't agreed with unions, understandable). Though that was attempted previously and removed immediately as not filling vacancies is not a reason to use contingency, filling such vacancies is wha resolves that kind of disruption.

Not sure why you think it's a strange state of affairs - contingency for guards role is well versed.
No such thing as contingency drivers, and no contingency DTCM/control to replace TSSA strikes.

Can't run trains without all three sets of positions covered. Not sure why that isn't comprehended.

 

[HSTEd]

The franchising system was far from perfect but it allowed operators some commercial freedom and an opportunity to raise revenue through the fare box, truth is, under actual privatisation we wouldn't be in this current situation, we'd have had a pay rise and there wouldn't be mass disruption to suppress demand.

No, under actual privatisation they'd all gone bust because essentially none of them would be able to pay their staff.

The franchising system only appeared successful because it formed a mechanism to allow the government to siphon huge subsidies to the industry without comment.

Even if franchising had continued, the death of government support for the river of subsidy money would have led to this same outcome.

I know people want to believe that franchising was what kept the wolves from the door, but it wasn't - it was a widespread belief in politics that subsidising the railway heavily was important. The repeated catastrophic failures of modernisation programmes, the death of the mass commuter market and the degraded post coronavirus financial position of the state have done it in.

If the franchises had just given the unions what they wanted then they would have gone bust when the Treasury and DfT said no to giving them the necessary subsidy uplift.

EDIT:

People who claim it is unreasonable for the Government to give a wad of subsidy money to a board of railway staff to run the railway, then claim that the government should give a wad of subsidy money to a board of railway staff to run the railway - but its fine because these people are notionally in the "private sector".

The political consensus on the railway is dead, that is the issue.

 

[Bantamzen]

I did think all-out strikes were a thing of the past as people couldn't afford them, but there have been some on a number of Arriva local companies, including one on Merseyside that lasted months and was well supported.

Certainly an all-out strike would get Government attention, though they'd probably on the other hand like the money saved.

Didn't the Arriva drivers get strike pay though? Makes a hell of a difference if you are getting paid for striking, trust me I remember disputes in the past when my old union paid it.

 

[43066]

Yes, as political campaigns go it is proving very expensive for the union members.

I assume you think nurses and ambulance drivers are also on a “political campaign”? Or do you only parrot anti trade union propaganda when it comes to railway staff?

The nurses, care sector and the NHS are first, second and third for cash.

Your own personal wish list. Throwing more money into the useless, wasteful, inefficient NHS sounds like a terrible idea to me. Unless you can explain why an organisation that receives above inflation budget increases year after year is managing to do worse than ever before? As a tax payer I’d like to know why…

I’d also like to know why the NHS has recently recruited more nurses and doctors but is now treating fewer patients than before Covid. Is this down to Spanish practices in the health service? Perhaps their Ts and Cs need sorting out…

No compulsory redundancies is an absurd proposition that cannot exist in the private sector (as they can go bust)

If an employer goes bust the employees simply lose their jobs. That has nothing whatsoever to do with redundancy and it’s absurd to conflate the two.

It is perfectly reasonable for a union representing guards to lobby for no compulsory redundancies. Especially when the role will continue to exist for many years to come, and the railway is generally short of operational staff.
Hence reductions in headcount can be managed by voluntary severance/redeployment etc.

It is a barrier to technology, efficiency and progress and traps employees in low productivity jobs that should have been replaced and automated.

So now you’re saying redundancy is a relief to workers “trapped” in jobs you don’t approve of

.

I must say this strikes me as a pretty vile thing to say at a time when some forum members are guards who are likely worried about their futures.

Most people are employed on the basis of the value they add, and don't have to go on strike to prove they still have a worrhwhile role to perform.

So why are nurses and paramedics on strike?!

There will be far more public outrage if rail workers get a lot more than nurses are being offered, and the consequences for borrowing and inflation from this public sector pay round are significant.

The more informed members of the public will be able to work out that 700,000+ nurses will cost rather and have more serious consequences for borrowing and inflation than under 100,000 railway staff (its pretty clear that the government propaganda about public sector pay leading to inflation is nonsense - it’s expected to fall next year irrespective of modest pay settlements of the type that are being awarded).

There are no contingency staff working on non-RMT strike dates (or shouldn't be as that isn't agreed with unions, understandable).

Let’s just say experiences vary…

 

[gazzaa2]

I've always been amazed at the Unions obsession with Nationalising the railway, now that's what we've effectively got and its gone massively down hill.

The franchising system was far from perfect but it allowed operators some commercial freedom and an opportunity to raise revenue through the fare box, truth is, under actual privatisation we wouldn't be in this current situation, we'd have had a pay rise and there wouldn't be mass disruption to suppress demand.

Franchises just take though (via exponential fare increases) and still rely on government money to actually improve services. Compare fares now to 30 years ago, you can't just continually pass the cost on to the customer, especially after over a decade of stagnant wages. And then if they fail the government have to step in, so it's privatise the profits and nationalise the risk.

The problem with nationalisation is the UK/England will invariably vote in Tory governments who see it as their duty to decimate public services (and stick another party in power and they may not run it much better either). Relying on inept or ideological governments to run services isn't ideal either.