Unite Network Rail Strikes Off

[yorksrob]

You make a very relevant point!

And this I think is where some modern thinking needs to appear on the part of the unions. If passenger numbers remain supressed, and the current action certainly isn't helping it improve, we might well see for the first time actual cuts being made. I see no reason not to believe that the gvmnt are very much up for it, and of course that seriously dents the unions' power if it means lower headcount requirements.

Indeed. The unions will have to concede something, however the fact that agreements have been reached in other parts of the country suggests that this isn't impossible.

 

[Starmill]

The rejection of a higher pay increase over at NR, with arguably fewer 'strings' attached, suggests that the deal would have been rejected even without DOO being inserted.

Indeed RMT would be unlikely to accept that offer - although Unite and TSSA may well have done.

 

[yorksrob]

Precisely. There was no such offer without the clauses which commit to RMT accepting the principle of DOO. And there's unlikely to be.

If DOO was a management priority, rather than a Government insertion, I would have thought that the Minister would have been eager to point it out on the Today programme yesterday.

 

[Starmill]

If DOO was a management priority, rather than a Government insertion, I would have thought that the Minister would have been eager to point it out on the Today programme yesterday.

Management don't like DOO because it causes too much conflict trying to negotiate it. But the government are only offering a pay rise with the savings resulting from it, and other changes.

 

[Carlisle]

It has been accepted quite happily by RMT and Aslef at Greater Anglia and ScotRail within the past few years.

Greater Anglia yes but Scotrail only permits driver door release, except on legacy SMA routes.

 

[yorksrob]

Management don't like DOO because it causes too much conflict trying to negotiate it. But the government are only offering a pay rise with the savings resulting from it, and other changes.

Yet it's Government telling us that the strikes are between the management and the Unions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

Greater Anglia yes but Scotrail only permits driver door release, except on legacy SMA routes.

Yes I seem to recall wondering why this wasn't an option during the interminable Northern dispute.

 

[43096]

I'm convinced that DOO bit was not put in in good faith, but rather as a spoiler so the deal would not be accepted. If you wanted to put DOO in you would say more about what you meant by DOO and where. DOO on all routes is just not going to happen.

It isn’t going to happen on every route, no. But this is about DOO being in staff contracts and there is logic in having it in all contracts to allow DOO working in future.

Didn’t we establish that SWR drivers have DOO in their contracts, even though no SWR services are DOO? It should have been done across all operators well before now.

 

[Carlisle]

I

Management don't like DOO because it causes too much conflict trying to negotiate it.

Indeed, the likes of Graham Eccles expanded South Central’s DOO then joined SWT & signed an agreement to rip down all its recently upgraded monitors .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

Yes I seem to recall wondering why this wasn't an option during the interminable Northern dispute.

northern probably would’ve settled on the Greater Anglia deal had RMT not changed position midway & refused similar deals elsewhere until their hand was forced at SWR .

 

[43066]

The rejection of a higher pay increase over at NR, with arguably fewer 'strings' attached, suggests that the deal would have been rejected even without DOO being inserted.

We don’t know for sure, but a deal could have been agreed - perhaps a %or two more. By inserting DOO at the last minute, as Mark Harper himself hasn’t denied, the government effectively prevented a deal from being agreed…

Are you saying that isn’t the case?

 

[brad465]

Apparently RMT security staff strike action at Eurostar has been called off so an offer can be voted on:

Eurostar strike action called off amid pay talks

Members of the RMT union were due to walk out on Friday and Sunday, but will now vote on a new pay offer.

www.bbc.co.uk

Strikes by security staff who work on the Eurostar train service this week have been called off to let union members vote on a pay offer.
Members of the Rail, Maritime and Transport (RMT) union, employed by Mitie, were due to walk out on Friday and Sunday in a dispute over pay.
Talks are continuing, and further strikes next week will go ahead if the dispute is not resolved.
Mitie said it has contingency plans in place if the action proceeds.

 

[Starmill]

Greater Anglia yes but Scotrail only permits driver door release, except on legacy SMA routes.

But control of the doors was on the table which is what I said. Whereas the principle of single person operating isn't, at least not with RMT anyway.

 

[AVK17]

Why all the discussion of DOO on this thread? It has nothing to do with the Network Rail dispute.

 

[Tw99]

Why all the discussion of DOO on this thread? It has nothing to do with the Network Rail dispute.

Agreed. Would be great if people could resist the temptation to express their opinion on it for the 100000000th time, so this thread can stay open.

 

[yorksrob]

It's not just Network Rail who are out though, the TOC's are as well.

 

[AVK17]

It's not just Network Rail who are out though, the TOC's are as well.

You're quite right but this thread is specifically about the Network Rail dispute.

 

[Annetts key]

The offer at Network Rail is still being rejected however, at 5%+4% and nothing to do with DOO. Only by the RMT though. And only because the NEC recommended rejection.

Actually, the ‘strings’ attached to the ‘offer’ to Network Rail maintenance (including CAPEX and Works Delivery) staff which the company call ‘Modernising Maintenance’, but which are actually cuts to the scheduled maintenance frequencies, changes to terms and conditions and changes to working practices (they want trained qualified personnel to become jacks of all trades) ARE a very big sticking point. And this was proposed by Network Rail before they offered any pay increase.

And keep in mind that the reductions to scheduled maintenance frequencies applies across all lines including busy main lines.

With both Network Rail and the TOCs, the government via the companies are basically saying you can only have a pay rise if you trade terms and conditions, working practices and the total number of posts. But even then, you can’t have an increase anywhere near the rate of inflation (regardless of which measure you use).

Understandable, the majority of RMT union members are not very keen on this. That’s why there is overwhelming support in the votes for industrial action. This is the membership asking the RMT to try to negotiate something better.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

Just heard there were more talks planned for tomorrow. Any chance of the NR strike getting suspended?

 

[Annetts key]

Just heard there were more talks planned for tomorrow. Any chance of the NR strike getting suspended?

Not very likely.

 

[yorksrob]

You're quite right but this thread is specifically about the Network Rail dispute.

It's kind of pointless trying to split one company dispute from another when they're all out.

 

[Towers]

You're quite right but this thread is specifically about the Network Rail dispute.

It is, but the TOC threads repeatedly get locked!

 

[Fred26]

It's kind of pointless trying to split one company dispute from another when they're all out.

It is, but the TOC threads repeatedly get locked!

What we could do with is a thread for each dispute - NR, TOC (RMT), TOC (ASLEF), for example.
With a list of the government's desires.

At the moment one dispute is often confused with another. That's bad enough in the media, but it doesn't need to happen on here.

 

[yorksrob]

It is, but the TOC threads repeatedly get locked!

Indeed. They do generate some conflict, but the industrial relations issues are the elephant in the room at the moment.

 

[Starmill]

Actually, the ‘strings’ attached to the ‘offer’ to Network Rail maintenance (including CAPEX and Works Delivery) staff which the company call ‘Modernising Maintenance’, but which are actually cuts to the scheduled maintenance frequencies, changes to terms and conditions and changes to working practices (they want trained qualified personnel to become jacks of all trades) ARE a very big sticking point. And this was proposed by Network Rail before they offered any pay increase.

And keep in mind that the reductions to scheduled maintenance frequencies applies across all lines including busy main lines.

With both Network Rail and the TOCs, the government via the companies are basically saying you can only have a pay rise if you trade terms and conditions, working practices and the total number of posts. But even then, you can’t have an increase anywhere near the rate of inflation (regardless of which measure you use).

Understandable, the majority of RMT union members are not very keen on this. That’s why there is overwhelming support in the votes for industrial action. This is the membership asking the RMT to try to negotiate something better.

This is your interpretation of the planned reform, you've posted it many times now so we're all familiar with the way you see it.

Maintenance roles at Network Rail have been specifically identified as an area where pay is out of line with market rates, with both basic pay and total reward being above market. Work outcomes are also lower than they should be given the money being spent.

I don't think there's an expectation you'll like it, few people do when a good deal ends, but unfortunately that's the way it's going. Surely a negotiated settlement is better than having to put up with the changes and not getting a pay rise?

The same benchmarking identified that stations and catering staff are also above market.

 

[Towers]

What we could do with is a thread for each dispute - NR, TOC (RMT), TOC (ASLEF), for example.
With a list of the government's desires.

At the moment one dispute is often confused with another. That's bad enough in the media, but it doesn't need to happen on here.

The problem is the bickering starts!

 

[carriageline]

This is your interpretation of the planned reform, you've posted it many times now so we're all familiar with the way you see it.

Maintenance roles at Network Rail have been specifically identified as an area where pay is out of line with market rates, with both basic pay and total reward being above market. Work outcomes are also lower than they should be given the money being spent.

I don't think there's an expectation you'll like it, few people do when a good deal ends, but unfortunately that's the way it's going. Surely a negotiated settlement is better than having to put up with the changes and not getting a pay rise?

The same benchmarking identified that stations and catering staff are also above market.

I don’t think anyone denies some modernisation needs to happens. Even the RMT has said they are happy to modernise (afterall, it’s not like maintenance hasnt changed at all in the past 20 years)

But I guess the issue is, the RMT want it on their terms. I’m just not sure what those terms are anymore!

 

[Annetts key]

I don’t think anyone denies some modernisation even happens. Even the RMT has said they are happy to modernise (afterall, it’s not like maintenance haven’t changed at all in the past 20 years)

Network Rail maintenance did “modernise” in 2010. I’ll attach a copy of the 2b/c document that was the result of a negotiated settlement between Network Rail and the unions for you to look at.
The source for this is from the members area of the RMT website (which is not accessible by the public) so I can’t post a link. It’s also available from the Network Rail employees site, but this part is not accessible by the public. Hence again, I can’t provide a link.

I should also say that this supersedes the conditions of service brought in by the previous private contract companies, but only in the areas that it covers. For areas not covered, the previous conditions of service continue to apply.

 

[carriageline]

Network Rail maintenance did “modernise” in 2010. I’ll attach a copy of the 2b/c document that was the result of a negotiated settlement between Network Rail and the unions for you to look at.

Sorry, despite my terribly worded message, that’s the exact point I was trying to put across. They use drones, all sorts of new tools and technology. Painting the RMT as “anti modernisation” isn’t right, they just want it done right

 

[Annetts key]

Sorry, despite my terribly worded message, that’s the exact point I was trying to put across. They use drones, all sorts of new tools and technology. Painting the RMT as “anti modernisation” isn’t right, they just want it done right

Of more precisely, without disadvantaging their members terms and conditions. And reasonable negotiations over changes to working practices.

 

[Wolfie]

DEFEND JOBS, PAY AND CONDITIONS - NETWORK RAIL

www.rmt.org.uk

Eligible to vote:18540
Votes cast:15370 (83%)
Voting to Accept:5598 (36%)
Voting to Reject:9772 (64%)
Rejected by 52.7% of RMT members eligible to vote. Not really big enough to be comfortable, a lot of RMT members voted to accept the offer. Unite members accepted. TSSA recommends acceptance result due Thursday 15 December. Even if Unite and TSSA have far fewer members at Network Rail than the RMT it still shows that the unions are not united on this, the RMT is starting to look isolated.

As a mathematician and statistian by background l hate deceptive use of figures.... Accepted by less than 30% of RMT members eligible to vote. To assume that members who for whatever reason didn't vote were in favour is frankly rubbish.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

You could turn that round and say 30.2% of those eligible to voted to accept…….

I make it 29.9% (rounding errors no doubt) but l agree your logic.

 

[carriageline]

Of more precisely, without disadvantaging their members terms and conditions. And reasonable negotiations over changes to working practices.

From your side, what are the ‘negative’ maintenance changes? We keep hearing about working more nights etc, but reading that and the NR released proposal it looks the same? (I’m NR, RMT by the way)

Feel free to PM if better