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Uniforms!

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sem34090

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I will admit that this has probably come up here several times before, that I don't work in the railway industry and that I probably have some pretty outdated ideas on this subject. Just thought I'd put that first.

Anyway, onward to my probably-slightly-rant-based post; Why does the British rail network of today seem to generally lack a decent (which to me tends towards 'smart') uniform for customer-facing staff (I'm excluding other staff here as their clothing does, above all, need to be as practical as possible.)? There are, of course, exceptions - Since it appeared a few years ago I have quite liked the look -but obviously cannot comment on the practicality- of the full GWR Guards' uniform (Shirt, Tie, Waistcoat, Jacket in corporate dark green with metal buttons). To me it looks suitably smart and presentable, in most cases where I've seen it. It is readily apparent that the wearer is a member of staff which can be essential. It also seems to mirror European practice, where smarter uniforms (for customer-facing roles) seem to have persisted long after they have generally seem to have vanished from the UK.

In my -obviously- limited experience of travelling in a heritage uniform to and from volunteering at my local preserved line I have also, sometimes, found myself being asked questions in preference to the actual staff. I have noticed a tendency for this amongst tourists, but certainly not only from them. Twice I have been mistaken for a TOC's inspector, once by a cleaner at a station and once by a rail replacement bus driver. I do not wear hi-vis when travelling on the rail network to try and avoid this. It seems that there is something that at least some passengers see in a smart uniform that suggests authority and professionalism - I have sometimes been asked these questions when a member of proper railway staff has been easily visible and close at hand.

Obviously times change and progress cannot be stopped in all circumstances, but I do wonder if there is a case to be made for the revival of smarter uniforms. I have heard others suggest that in past times when these uniforms also tended to give a clear guide as to what grade a person was employed at that it had practical benefits in unusual and emergency situations in that senior members of staff were easily identifiable by their uniform.

Oh and another thing - Decent materials! They would probably help a smarter uniform be more comfortable, last longer, be more practical, durable and maybe even more ethically sound than cheap polyester equivalents. A uniform can be smart and practical concurrently, but cheap materials do not tend to lend themselves well to either or both. Some of my uniform pieces are originals of pre-1964 vintage and are still able to be made presentable, and still fit for purpose too.

Others will vehemently disagree with me, I will likely vehemently disagree with others but that's generally the sign of a decent discussion! I am unlikely to be able to be convinced that polo and t-shirts are able to pass as 'smart' -personally I cannot stand either on aesthetic grounds- but I can see how in some situations they might be more practical.
 
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mrcheek

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Whilst the GWR uniforms are very impressive, I cant imagine they are all that comfortable if you have to wear them all day.

I agree that employees should look smart, and I favour uniforms, but society is changing. Hardly anyone wears a tie these days. Many offices dont even require suits, or even proper shirts!

I think polo shirts are acceptable, provided they have company logos on them. T shirts is probably taking "casual" a bit too far!
 

185143

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On the topic of impressive looking uniforms, nothing will come close to those of Caledonian Sleeper.
 

185

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Cost. Buy in bulk, it's cheaper. 'Bespoke tailored' :lol: ...ours was 3 months late after the first boat from the far east sank.

But then, buying so cheap, it falls apart after a few months and firms use twice as much. My tie looks like Frankenstein's neck, repeatedly sewn together after falling apart and getting a new replacement is often worthy of writing a comedy sketch.
 

DarloRich

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Whenever this comes up there seems to be a desire to retrun to some kind of Edwardian day!

A uniform needs to be comfortable, practical, hard wearing, offer a range of climate appropriate items, offer value for money, be well cut, offer a sensible range of sizes, offer both male and female choices ( honestly!),be distinctive and be smart.

Note: Smart does not mean formal.


EDIT: Also need to add made from sensible, good quality, breathable fabrics to my list.
 
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tracksider

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I agree with the OP. Whenever this talk comes up, the "times change" line gets trotted out. The thing is, I think times *are* changing, but back towards a more formal style. This will likely follow the increasing popularity of liveries and branding that draws from heritage styling. Of course adoption won't be uniform (ahem) across the network, but I think it will become more common. Look out for EMR's new uniform in the coming months.

The big absence so far is the return of the peaked cap. I actually think they are great. Even if the rest of the uniform is nothing special, the hat makes it look much more professional. I also think they are really useful for the public who can use them to quickly identify the wearer as "someone I can ask for help/advice", rather than randomly picking anyone in a branded fleece. Formal caps/hats are still valued on the continent and in many countries around the world, so I think it's about time that they made a return here.
 

DarloRich

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I agree with the OP. Whenever this talk comes up, the "times change" line gets trotted out. The thing is, I think times *are* changing, but back towards a more formal style. This will likely follow the increasing popularity of liveries and branding that draws from heritage styling. Of course adoption won't be uniform (ahem) across the network, but I think it will become more common. Look out for EMR's new uniform in the coming months.

The big absence so far is the return of the peaked cap. I actually think they are great. Even if the rest of the uniform is nothing special, the hat makes it look much more professional. I also think they are really useful for the public who can use them to quickly identify the wearer as "someone I can ask for help/advice", rather than randomly picking anyone in a branded fleece. Formal caps/hats are still valued on the continent and in many countries around the world, so I think it's about time that they made a return here.


and there is the post that proves my point. A return to the "good old days". Pure nostalgia.
 

43066

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The big absence so far is the return of the peaked cap. I actually think they are great. Even if the rest of the uniform is nothing special, the hat makes it look much more professional.

Ah, the good old peaked cap, as worn by various unpleasant military dictators throughout much of modern history. Perhaps rail staff should also wear lashings of gold braid and jackboots?

Surely you cannot be serious?!
 

LSWR Cavalier

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I no longer work on the railway but I habitually wear a peaked cap, I doff it to greet people instead of shaking hands

In the UK most of us had to wear uniform at school, maybe unwillingly. Many years later I quite like uniforms, as used in cycling clubs for example

I think there could be standard uniforms for all TOCs with just different colours or logos (tie, scarf, cap? ) specific to the operator
 

tracksider

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and there is the post that proves my point. A return to the "good old days". Pure nostalgia.

Haha, I knew I'd set off some lively responses with this.

If you read what I said, I was actually quite matter of fact -- I didn't actually say I wanted uniforms to be in past styles. I merely said that I thought the trend in the industry was towards branding that drew more from heritage and and smarter uniforms, and that this trend can already be seen regardless of my opinions. I don't think all TOCs will go in this direction. Like you say DarloRich, there are a whole host of *practical* things a uniform should be, first and foremost.

Ah, the good old peaked cap, as worn by various unpleasant military dictators throughout much of modern history. Perhaps rail staff should also wear lashings of gold braid and jackboots?

Surely you cannot be serious?!

I mean, I don't feel particularly passionately about their adoption but I like them for the reasons given. Given that plenty of railway companies on the continent and around the world have a cap as part of their uniform I think it's a fair thing for me to raise and for us to discuss politely without silly comparisons to dictators and asking if I'm serious? I think you'd agree that Japan's railway, for example, is not stuck in a time warp.
 

DarloRich

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Haha, I knew I'd set off some lively responses with this.

If you read what I said, I was actually quite matter of fact -- I didn't actually say I wanted uniforms to be in past styles. I merely said that I thought the trend in the industry was towards branding that drew more from heritage and and smarter uniforms, and that this trend can already be seen regardless of my opinions. I don't think all TOCs will go in this direction. Like you say DarloRich, there are a whole host of *practical* things a uniform should be, first and foremost.


I dislike formality and think hats are old fashioned. For me it is about the wearer and how they feel. If staff don't like things like hats they will soon go missing/get sat on ;)
 

TheEdge

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Ah, the good old peaked cap, as worn by various unpleasant military dictators throughout much of modern history. Perhaps rail staff should also wear lashings of gold braid and jackboots?

Surely you cannot be serious?!

I'd be absolutely on board with that! I'm thinking full Soviet General at all times.

But in all seriousness the "smart" (read cheap scratchy) suits favoured by so many here and by an annoying number of employers are some of the most uncomfortable and impractical uniforms I've had to suffer. As a guard all my pockets were in the suit jacket, so when doing commercial duties in the height of summer I still had to wear said cheap no breathing jacket and thus sweat like a pig, truly professional.

Thankfully my TOC did a recent uniform roll out which allowed us to go for a less suited look if we desired it. While it wasn't quite as good as the cargo trousers and company polo shirt I was hoping drivers might get I was at least able to consign the school uniform jacket and tie to history and just exist in a short sleeved shirt and gilet or fleece.
 

sem34090

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On the subject of caps - On the few occasions that I've forgotten mine by leaving it either at home or in the booking office I have been asked noticeably fewer questions when travelling to and from than when I've had it under my arm or (if my hands are full or it's p***ing it down) on my head. I'd therefore venture that the traditional cap, as used by BR up to 1964, from 1990, by some TOCs in the early privatisation period and on many railways all over the world, does have some value in making staff easily visible as staff besides the ubiquitous Hi-Vis that these days, ironically, can almost make staff less visible.
 

father_jack

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Agree about the GWR uniform. It is smart and comfortable.
The front end seat warmers got a way better deal than the other staff.

The waistcoat was binned off quickly as it was like wearing a lagging jacket. People had to get certs from occupational health excusing wearing them before the company understood. The jacket picks up every bit of dirt and the only applicable dry cleaners seems to be in Inverness. The buttons fell/fall off everything. The 16 inch Asda/Marks and Sparks neck shirt wearer needs a 17 in the work shirt which means the body is too big and the long sleeves cover your hands. The raincoats leak like a sieve and the water splashes off them on to your trousers.....
 
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whoosh

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The big absence so far is the return of the peaked cap. I actually think they are great. Even if the rest of the uniform is nothing special, the hat makes it look much more professional. I also think they are really useful for the public who can use them to quickly identify the wearer as "someone I can ask for help/advice", rather than randomly picking anyone in a branded fleece. Formal caps/hats are still valued on the continent and in many countries around the world, so I think it's about time that they made a return here.

Midland Mainline had hats for on train staff. Many hated them and "lost" them out of the droplight windows of HSTs!
 

43066

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But in all seriousness the "smart" (read cheap scratchy) suits favoured by so many here and by an annoying number of employers are some of the most uncomfortable and impractical uniforms I've had to suffer. As a guard all my pockets were in the suit jacket, so when doing commercial duties in the height of summer I still had to wear said cheap no breathing jacket and thus sweat like a pig, truly professional.

It’s funny how people who fetishise formal/old fashioned uniforms are invariably those who don’t actually have to wear it!

Having said that I know a bloke who buys heritage BR uniform off eBay and has been known to wear it to work. He’s an oddball, though.

On the few occasions that I've forgotten mine by leaving it either at home or in the booking office I have been asked noticeably fewer questions when travelling to and from than when I've had it under my arm or (if my hands are full or it's p***ing it down) on my head.

All the more reason to wear a non uniform overcoat!
 

sem34090

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Regardless of how members of staff would rather their role be, in this context (of customer-facing staff) I dare say that surely being distinctive to passengers, able be easily identified, is surely beneficial? I can understand that staff wouldn't necessarily want to be asked questions by the public, but unfortunately it does kind of go with the territory.

Also, thanks for labelling everyone who thinks something smarter can be better in some circumstances. As I've outlined; I wear such clothing most of the time (smarter; uniform only on days when I'm volunteering) and cannot see why it gets branded as uncomfortable. For me, personally, it's quite the opposite but I realise that is very much a minority view.
 

StephenHunter

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I wear uniform when I'm volunteering... and when returning home via TfL Rail, I was once mistaken for railway staff by an Indian couple!
 

PupCuff

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I don't think a lot of current railway issue uniforms are particularly well made or designed. The last shirts I was issued before I moved behind a desk melted when you ironed them. Items of clothing with fake pockets for design, rather than real ones for practicality. A choice of three coats, of varying thicknesses, each of which when worn have the breathability of pallet wrap equally so you're all sticky and eugh by the end of the day.

I'd quite like a hat, to be honest. I think provided they're well fitted they look smart. A formal uniform needn't be uncomfortable, it just seems like the uniform designers favoured by the rail industry go for affordability over practicability.
 

virgintrain1

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I think polo shirts are acceptable, provided they have company logos on them. T shirts is probably taking "casual" a bit too far!

Polo shirts! Couldn't think of anything worse. Look scruffy and horrid material. Wouldn't want to be seen wearing one whilst shopping in Waitrose never mind working an Intercity train!

It amazes me how some fellow rail staff seem almost offended about the idea of having to wear a suit. We are paid well and can at least put some effort into looking the part. Uniform policies are hardly strict on the railway. Look at Ryanair their staff are paid a pittance and their uniform policy is a hell of a lot stricter than any TOC.

Obviously if work for a TOC that still has units that are not air conditioned in the middle of summer then something like a short sleeve order / ties off order should be made by the duty control manager and and staff can remove their ties (provided they are wearing a short sleeve shirt).
 
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365 Networker

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Having said that I know a bloke who buys heritage BR uniform off eBay and has been known to wear it to work. He’s an oddball, though.
A few years ago I saw a Virgin Trains guard wearing a full InterCity uniform, complete with a name tag.
 

43066

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It amazes me how some fellow rail staff seem almost offended about the idea of having to wear a suit. We are paid well and can at least put some effort into looking the part. Uniform policies are hardly strict on the railway. Look at Ryanair their staff are paid a pittance and their uniform policy is a hell of a lot stricter than any TOC.

I’d be quite happy to wear a suit, but I’m asked to wear a uniform!
 

4-SUB 4732

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Ah, the good old peaked cap, as worn by various unpleasant military dictators throughout much of modern history. Perhaps rail staff should also wear lashings of gold braid and jackboots?

Surely you cannot be serious?!

I can see you in a peaked cap...
 

Tom Quinne

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Whilst the GWR uniforms are very impressive, I cant imagine they are all that comfortable if you have to wear them all day.

I agree that employees should look smart, and I favour uniforms, but society is changing. Hardly anyone wears a tie these days. Many offices dont even require suits, or even proper shirts!

I think polo shirts are acceptable, provided they have company logos on them. T shirts is probably taking "casual" a bit too far!

They weren't, extremely hot in the summer, and not the warm in the winter.

Poor quality unless you dry cleaned them, they did look smart out of the packet however but that was about it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The front end seat warmers got a way better deal than the other staff.

The waistcoat was binned off quickly as it was like wearing a lagging jacket. People had to get certs from occupational health excusing wearing them before the company understood. The jacket picks up every bit of dirt and the only applicable dry cleaners seems to be in Inverness. The buttons fell/fall off everything. The 16 inch Asda/Marks and Sparks neck shirt wearer needs a 17 in the work shirt which means the body is too big and the long sleeves cover your hands. The raincoats leak like a sieve and the water splashes off them on to your trousers.....

Pass me a stiff drink, we actually agree on something!

The “it started over a cup of tea” rebrand uniform is crap!

Thank the lord I don’t have to wear a uniform anhmtoe
 
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philthetube

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Ah, the good old peaked cap, as worn by various unpleasant military dictators throughout much of modern history. Perhaps rail staff should also wear lashings of gold braid and jackboots?

Surely you cannot be serious?!
and Blackpool North staff :D
 

LowLevel

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I don't wear hats and I'm not interested in starting. If issued one it may meet with an unfortunate accident but no matter who moans it is most unlikely to spend any time on my head. The end.

I currently wear a uniform designed in the late 90s. In the summer I drip with sweat to the point the shirt changes colour almost the moment it touches my skin, I just break out. It, the jacket and trousers are all totally unbreathable. It is quite traditional which I don't mind but the quality is awful. The shirts and trousers hang like sacks. The female uniform has literally no pockets, at all.

In the summer and around Christmas I routinely load and unload luggage being a helpful sort. Doing that in synthetic dark coloured shirt and trousers means I could enter a wet shirt competition. I work trains with no or broken air con so again forget uniform standards, if it is hot, off comes the tie or whatever.

I would like a choice of suitable garments made from half decent materials. A polo type shirt and indeed smart shorts (it nearly caused a riot when a sister TOC with the same uniform some years ago became allowed to wear them and yet we weren't) if I have a job working to the seaside in summer where I am going to do manual work.

A smarter shirt option for if I have to work a more business like train.

I do not wish to look like BR in 1956. I work some rough routes with tough crowds and you live and die by being slightly relatable to the locals. Looking like a crap Park keeper or Dixon of Dock Green will just get the piss taken out of you.
 
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