"Unglamorous" infrastructure improvements- North

[L+Y]

Posting to collate discussions that have gone elsewhere...

Which small infrastructure improvements, either already in full or partial development, or as yet still at the drawing board stage, would make the biggest difference to rail travel in the north of England?

I'm thinking, for example, of improvements on the scale of new flyovers, platforms and perhaps the odd reopened branch line or freight reopening, as opposed to Woodhead style grand line restorations.

 

[D365]

Manchester Picc Platforms 15/16?

I can only apologise

 

[lancastrian]

I can give you a list.

1. The Burscough Curves: From the Ormskirk line 3rd rail to Burscough Bridge. From Preston to open up a direct route from Preston to Southport for the first time since September 1964.
2. Skipton to Colne line plus redoubling the line from Colne to Rose Grove.
3. A dynamic loop between Lytham to St Annes including both stations.
4. Extend to Clitheroe service to Hellifield.
Electrify from Manchester Victoria to both Rochdale & Stalybridge.
5. Newcastle to Ashington in South East Northumberland.
6. A second line and platform at Malton.
7. 3rd rail extended from Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate.
8. 3rd rail extended from Bidston to Wrexham Central.
9. Get the second line and platform rebuilt at Dore.

That will do for now.

 

[D365]

I can give you a list.

1. The Burscough Curves: From the Ormskirk line 3rd rail to Burscough Bridge. From Preston to open up a direct route from Preston to Southport for the first time since September 1964.
2. Skipton to Colne line plus redoubling the line from Colne to Rose Grove.
3. A dynamic loop between Lytham to St Annes including both stations.
4. Extend to Clitheroe service to Hellifield.
Electrify from Manchester Victoria to both Rochdale & Stalybridge.
5. Newcastle to Ashington in South East Northumberland.
6. A second line and platform at Malton.
7. 3rd rail extended from Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate.
8. 3rd rail extended from Bidston to Wrexham Central.
9. Get the second line and platform rebuilt at Dore.

That will do for now.

In this day and age, I feel electrification is very glamorous!

 

[lancastrian]

In this day and age, I feel electrification is very glamorous!

Really, they have been doing 3rd rail electrification for over a 100 years. I could have added Ellesmere Port to Helsby on to that list for 3rd rail.
It would complete the Merseyrail Network fully.

 

[D365]

Really, they have been doing 3rd rail electrification for over a 100 years. I could have added Ellesmere Port to Helsby on to that list for 3rd rail.
It would complete the Merseyrail Network fully.

I was inferring overhead electrification; I don't think there's been any brand new third rail installations since the 90s.

Normally I wouldn't be a fan of third rail extensions but with the Class 777s, Merseyrail will be more akin to a metro that's just engineered to heavy rail standards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Normally I wouldn't be a fan of third rail extensions but with the Class 777s, Merseyrail will be more akin to a metro that's just engineered to heavy rail standards.

Plenty of those around the world; several German S-Bahnen, the RER in Paris and indeed the Metropolitan Line.

Notably, talking of Hamburg, they fitted pantographs and transformers to some S-Bahn EMUs to allow an extension - so this would have a parallel in Merseyrail if it was easier/cheaper to complete say Kirkby to Wigan with wires (though the bridge into Wallgate is a perpetual nuisance in that regard).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

1. The Burscough Curves for me is an absolute definite. Preston to Southport direct.
2. A dynamic loop between Lytham to St Annes including both stations and then run Southport services through to Blackpool South and North.
3. Electrify about 4000 miles of railway

 

[Bald Rick]

2. A dynamic loop between Lytham to St Annes including both stations

All three, surely!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

2. A dynamic loop between Lytham to St Annes including both stations and then run Southport services through to Blackpool South and North.

All three, surely!

Basically I would double track all way including Ansdell and Fairhaven

 

[Ianno87]

Manchester Picc Platforms 15/16?

I can only apologise

Scrap it, and just rebuild 13/14 straighter and wider to the west, combined with a rebuild of Oxford Rd.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Scrap it, and just rebuild 13/14 straighter and wider to the west, combined with a rebuild of Oxford Rd.

What would that gain in terms of capacity?

 

[Ianno87]

What would that gain in terms of capacity?

Improve throughout with better dwell times and platform re-occupations, not just "baking in" the current sloppy operations and poor dwell times on curved, narrow platforms where passenger circulation is crowded and slow.

I'm thinking wide, straight platforms that distrubute passengers uniformly along their length...the polar opposite of the current platforms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Improve throughout with better dwell times and platform re-occupations, not just "baking in" the current sloppy operations and poor dwell times on curved, narrow platforms where passenger circulation is crowded and slow.

I'm thinking wide, straight platforms that distrubute passengers uniformly along their length...the polar opposite of the current platforms.

The thing is, that still blocks the corridor if something goes wrong, e.g. a train failure, passenger requiring an ambulance etc. There need to be 2 platforms in each direction at Picc and Oxford Road for that reason (and Deansgate probably closed).

 

[Ianno87]

The thing is, that still blocks the corridor if something goes wrong, e.g. a train failure, passenger requiring an ambulance etc. There need to be 2 platforms in each direction at Picc and Oxford Road for that reason (and Deansgate probably closed).

Have trains that break down less would be a better solution, and a clear, efficient process for dealing with unwell passengers. It is very rare that a passenger is sufficiently unwell to not be able to be removed from the train.

Two platforms aren't "needed" at Thameslink core stations when the same issues are equally likely (probably more likely with significantly more passengers) there.

Bi-di to work around failures suffices to keep a basic service running.

 

[37424]

I can give you a list.

1. The Burscough Curves: From the Ormskirk line 3rd rail to Burscough Bridge. From Preston to open up a direct route from Preston to Southport for the first time since September 1964.

No. Is there really a strong business case for that compared to many others?

2. Skipton to Colne line plus redoubling the line from Colne to Rose Grove.

No. Is that really a small infrastructure improvement? I would class that as fairly major, from a passenger perspective its a joke business case wise, and as for a freight line not convinced, it would need to be looked at in the context of NPR plus all these freight trains would have to get through the busy Airedale route.

3. A dynamic loop between Lytham to St Annes including both stations.

Yes probably justified for a half hourly service

4. Extend to Clitheroe service to Hellifield.
Electrify from Manchester Victoria to both Rochdale & Stalybridge.

No. I expect extending to Hellifield is another dubious business case that would end carrying lots of fresh air about.
I don't see the point in extending electrification to Rochdale at this stage when most services go beyond Rochdale.
Staybridge yes but in the context of a medium term and long term plan for the Transpennine routes including NPR
Would look at Wigan-Bolton instead of Rochdale

5. Newcastle to Ashington in South East Northumberland.

Yes and should be a strong candidate

6. A second line and platform at Malton.

Yes if helps prevent congestion going to 2 trains per hour in each direction

7. 3rd rail extended from Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate.

No because the Health and Safety Police are unlikely to allow it

8. 3rd rail extended from Bidston to Wrexham Central.

As above and not sure it should be a high priority

9. Get the second line and platform rebuilt at Dore.

Yes

Electrification highest priority Transpennine route. although that's not small scale obviously. Re look at such as Bolton-Wigan

I would also look at the case for electrification for Leeds-Harrogate-York along with any capacity improvement needed for a half hourly service from Harrogate to York. One advantage of this route is that is self contained for Local Services and could all go electric, along with the already electric capable London trains.

I also think people should shut up moaning about investment for the North when has clearly been quite a lot of investment recently.

The issues with regard to Piccadilly and the TPE routes need to be looked at in the context of NPR, its development and likely go ahead and capacity needed in the intervening period. In the mean time for Piccadilly I would look at less frequent longer trains, and also perhaps get away from the idea that everywhere in the north needs a train to Manchester and particularly Manchester Airport.

 

[The Planner]

Getting the third rail extended out to Headbolt Lane is tricky enough at the minute.

 

[cle]

I don't see how Wigan-Bolton wires is hugely instrumental in itself, without Rochdale/Staly to counter-balance, and a lot more cross-Manchester local service to justify them all, and shift folks at scale.

Dore is the most important thing here so far, but is actually a few pieces of work and has its own thread.

Colne/Skipton is classic crayon - looks sensible on a map, but unsure what it would actually do. Hellifield provides this same link - ostensibly - and it's barely used.

On the more modest, local side -
Lytham/St Annes is smart.
Helsby has definitely grown as a railhead with the new services, and would give more purpose to the EP route.


The North East I know less about, but seems pretty unanimous on Blyth/Ashington and also the Washington route.

 

[darloscott]

Getting the third platform completed at Middlesbrough would be a good start for my area, along with reopening the third platform at Hartlepool to allow capacity improvements there.
Darlington's new "local lines" platform would allow a frequency improvement to Saltburn once Middlesbrough is sorted too. Possibly a second unit on Whitby line with associated loops to allow a decent frequency there during the summer too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Colne/Skipton is classic crayon - looks sensible on a map, but unsure what it would actually do. Hellifield provides this same link - ostensibly - and it's barely used.

Er, because it has one train each way per week?

Extend the Clitheroes to Hellifield and you'd get some *actual* idea of potential usage.

 

[Iskra]

Er, because it has one train each way per week?

Extend the Clitheroes to Hellifield and you'd get some *actual* idea of potential usage.

I agree with that. Wouldn’t that be a sensible first step before re-building the line between Skipton and Colne? If a Clitheroe-Hellifield service can sustain itself it would cement the business case.

 

[37424]

I agree with that. Wouldn’t that be a sensible first step before re-building the line between Skipton and Colne? If a Clitheroe-Hellifield service can sustain itself it would cement the business case.

Which would venture to guess would be next to naff all and good way of throwing money away. I sure there are better priorities.

 

[Ianno87]

Er, because it has one train each way per week?

Extend the Clitheroes to Hellifield and you'd get some *actual* idea of potential usage.

I agree with that. Wouldn’t that be a sensible first step before re-building the line between Skipton and Colne? If a Clitheroe-Hellifield service can sustain itself it would cement the business case.

Which would venture to guess would be next to naff all and good way of throwing money away. I sure there are better priorities.

A Hellifield trial would be highly speculative and probably a good way of pouring taxpayers' money down the drain. It would only make sense if there were some sizeable untapped commuting demand to Manchester from Hellifield. Which there isn't.

 

[Iskra]

A Hellifield trial would be highly speculative and probably a good way of pouring taxpayers' money down the drain. It would only make sense if there were some sizeable untapped commuting demand to Manchester from Hellifield. Which there isn't.

Yes, I think we know that. What we're saying is it seems less speculative allotting one DMU to run back and forth on an existing line compared to rebuilding a line from scratch!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Carlisle station, possibly. (If the Waverley Route were to be extended back into Carlisle, where would services terminate at the station?)

 

[30907]

Carlisle station, possibly. (If the Waverley Route were to be extended back into Carlisle, where would services terminate at the station?)

There are two north-end bays, so no problem.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There are two north-end bays, so no problem.

Of course, platforms 7 and 8, both capable of taking trains of at least six carriage lengths, if I (now) rightly recall.

 

[cle]

Yes, I think we know that. What we're saying is it seems less speculative allotting one DMU to run back and forth on an existing line compared to rebuilding a line from scratch!

Thank you! Yes I know the service is poor, I meant the infrastructure and ability is ostensibly the same - and yet, there is no desire to leverage it. Colne itself only sees one pathetic train per hour.

 

[WAO]

I would scrap the Burscough Curves and Skelmersdale branch (for the moment) schemes and instead:

• Build a Burscough interchange station (called Liverpool North Parkway!) where the Preston and Southport lines cross with car park, cafe, lifts etc and access from the A59. Passengers accept changing trains on Metros worldwide. Fitting batteries to the new Merseyrail stock would allow Burscough to become the terminus instead of Ormskirk.
• 
  
• Redouble Upholland – Fazakerley (the L&Y's main line) and build good road access from West Skelm to Rainford Jn and from the East to Upholland (at Pimbo). Run a frequent connecting bus service between the two stations serving the disparate estates of the town. Skelm rambles too much for a single central station to serve. Bring Merseyrails out to terminate, either by batteries or wires. No more d.c.
• 
  
• Give Manchester some proper electric crossrails by wiring to the immediate neighbouring towns, as mentioned (Wigan, Rochdale, Stalybridge, Marple, Buxton, New Mills etc), rather than expanding costly but low capacity light rail.
• 
  
• Put Sheffield on the electric map from the North by wiring South from South Kirkby/Moorthorpe and from Doncaster .
• 
  
• The stopping services provide more local benefit (important for Boris) than long distance services and offer less scope for NR planning disasters.
• 
  
• Perhaps it’s as well that I’m now away from the area!
• 
  
• WAO

 

[Iskra]

I would scrap the Burscough Curves and Skelmersdale branch (for the moment) schemes and instead:

• Build a Burscough interchange station (called Liverpool North Parkway!) where the Preston and Southport lines cross with car park, cafe, lifts etc and access from the A59. Passengers accept changing trains on Metros worldwide. Fitting batteries to the new Merseyrail stock would allow Burscough to become the terminus instead of Ormskirk.
• 
  
• Redouble Upholland – Fazakerley (the L&Y's main line) and build good road access from West Skelm to Rainford Jn and from the East to Upholland (at Pimbo). Run a frequent connecting bus service between the two stations serving the disparate estates of the town. Skelm rambles too much for a single central station to serve. Bring Merseyrails out to terminate, either by batteries or wires. No more d.c.
• 
  
• Give Manchester some proper electric crossrails by wiring to the immediate neighbouring towns, as mentioned (Wigan, Rochdale, Stalybridge, Marple, Buxton, New Mills etc), rather than expanding costly but low capacity light rail.
• 
  
• Put Sheffield on the electric map from the North by wiring South from South Kirkby/Moorthorpe and from Doncaster .
• 
  
• The stopping services provide more local benefit (important for Boris) than long distance services and offer less scope for NR planning disasters.
• 
  
• Perhaps it’s as well that I’m now away from the area!
• 
  
• WAO

It's a nice idea but seems like a lot of effort when only one service could actually use it? If Sheffield ever gets wired it needs to be as part of wiring the full MML or the XC core. Anything else is pretty pointless.