"Unglamorous" infrastructure improvements- North

[Ianno87]

Thank you! Yes I know the service is poor, I meant the infrastructure and ability is ostensibly the same - and yet, there is no desire to leverage it. Colne itself only sees one pathetic train per hour.

You'd have to at least commit about 5 years' worth of funding to at least establish the service and give demand chance to materialise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is one key reason why to do the Curves instead of this "North Parkway" - if you do, you can do an hourly single-unit service from Preston to Burscough Bridge.

 

[WAO]

There's an hourly stopping service from Leeds, half under the wires, so equivalent to the benefit of a half hourly service. Would qualify down South! Additionally stopping services to Doncaster share the route from Swinton Jn, many of which could be split.

Waiting for the MML, stalled at various points and even XC, doesn't help local needs, expressed politically at the last election. The Southern started electrification locally then extended, when it had learned what to do.

WAO

 

[johnnychips]

There's an hourly stopping service from Leeds, half under the wires, so equivalent to the benefit of a half hourly service. Would qualify down South! Additionally stopping services to Doncaster share the route from Swinton Jn, many of which could be split.

WAO

We do not want to be messing about splitting and joining services at Swinton. It’s hard enough threading the current stoppers through the fast 2 XC, one fast TPE and one fast Northern per hour, let alone freight.

Incidentally, as we are speculating, how would potential Doncaster to Sheffield electrification square with the already electrified section between Parkgate and Rotherham. I don’t know what system/voltage that is.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Might be a bit biased but reinstating double track on the Mid Cheshire line between Mickle Trafford & Mouldsworth and Skelton Junction & Edgely Junction. Would easily allow a 2nd train an hour along the line, at least as far as Navigation Road.

 

[WAO]

They'd not split at Swinton but at Doncaster of course, i.e fewer continue to Hull & N Lincs. Electric stoppers are nippier, so ease pathing.

The class 399 Sheffield tram train is supposed to be dual voltage,750V dc/25kV ac, with the OLE adaptable for either.

WAO

 

[D365]

Incidentally, as we are speculating, how would potential Doncaster to Sheffield electrification square with the already electrified section between Parkgate and Rotherham. I don’t know what system/voltage that is.

Tram train is electrified to 750V DC currently but has been designed so that it can be adapted to 25kV AC. The Class 399s use the connecting chord at Meadowhall South to change between tram and NR signalling, therefore it should be straightforward to add a voltage changeover.

 

[Halish Railway]

Some ideas for branch lines:
- Milner Wood Junction (near Menston) to Otley, along with capacity improvements such as doubling Springs Junction to Apperley Junction, which should also be grade-separated.
- Horsforth to Leeds-Bradford airport.
- March to Wisbech.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I do like how a thread for "small, unglamorous" projects has most of the replies listing things which are neither of those things and which have multiple threads covering them already...

My suggestions would be:

• A proper building for the island platform at Wakefield Kirkgate.
• A loop between Lockwood and Berry Brow to allow improved frequency on the Huddersfield to Sheffield line (capacity at Sheffield Midland notwithstanding).
• A more spacious concourse at Bristol Temple Meads.

 

[Bletchleyite]

• A more spacious concourse at Bristol Temple Meads.

Agreed on this one - the retail and food offering is appalling for such an important station. There isn't even an M&S, and the nearest mini supermarket (think it's a Tesco Express) is well over 10 minutes' walk away.

It would be easy enough to do something in the old Brunel trainshed replacing the car parking in there, a bit like the slightly separate old concourse in Leeds.

Preston is similarly lacking but as it's on one end of Fishergate there's plenty of stuff nearby outside the station.

 

[AndyHudds]

I do like how a thread for "small, unglamorous" projects has most of the replies listing things which are neither of those things and which have multiple threads covering them already...

My suggestions would be:

• A proper building for the island platform at Wakefield Kirkgate.
• A loop between Lockwood and Berry Brow to allow improved frequency on the Huddersfield to Sheffield line (capacity at Sheffield Midland notwithstanding).
• A more spacious concourse at Bristol Temple Meads.

What do you mean a proper island platform? Just out of interest, what's wrong with the current one?

 

[RT4038]

What do you mean a proper island platform? Just out of interest, what's wrong with the current one?

??? It says 'a proper building on the island platform' , not a proper island platform!

 

[Sceptre]

Some ideas for branch lines:
- Milner Wood Junction (near Menston) to Otley, along with capacity improvements such as doubling Springs Junction to Apperley Junction, which should also be grade-separated.
- Horsforth to Leeds-Bradford airport.
- March to Wisbech.

Not for nothing, but isn't LBA too far uphill for a meaningful spur off either the Ilkley or the Harrogate line?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

• A more spacious concourse at Bristol Temple Meads.

Hardly the North of England?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Hardly the North of England?

Whoops! Well it is somewhat out in the provinces at least...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whoops! Well it is somewhat out in the provinces at least...

London-in-Zummerzet(-ish) these days no?

(I do like Bristol though, wouldn't mind living there and I do know a few people who do - just too far from family to be motivated to actually want to, if I relocate it'll be northwards)

 

[AndyHudds]

??? It says 'a proper building on the island platform' , not a proper island platform!

Sorry misread, was reading in the go on my way to work.

 

[PR1Berske]

The Burscough Curves may seem "unglamorous" but it's this kind of focused, specific investment which opens up so much more possibility and should be the kind of infrastructure project which local authorities had the power to fund.

Preston to Southport by bus (the trustworthy workhouse X2) is a long, twisty-turny route through semi-rural suburbia, and is an unequal hybrid of express coach and hail-and-ride stopper. The Curves would offer an alternative. Not a replacement (for some of the communities on the bus route would have nothing were it taken away), just an alternative additional extra. The A49 over the River Douglas at Tarleton can get chocka, at the best of times. One smashed wall from one unfortunate accident and the entire route is closed: the Curves would come into their own.

That said, for the interest of balance, just relaying the Curves and getting Northern to run trains up and down would not be enough. The line into Preston would almost certainly need re-jigging, so services getting onto the WCML could do so without standing at Farington with the engine ticking over for too long. The line into Burscough and Ormskirk would need re-jigging, as MerseyRail would suddenly have a semi-kind-of-almost competitor into their territory. The line into Wigan would need re-jigging, not least because Southport <--> Wigan <--> Manchester services would need a few minutes added into the timetables with knock-on effects, however minor.

Lancashire County Council has (repeatedly) rejected the Curves as financially viable to re-open. This matters, because the argument in favour has to have a positive BCR. One tangentially related issue will be the Skelmersdale railway station scheme, if that ever gets built, because West Lancashire could then have a better financial case for linking Southport <--> Burscough <--> Ormskirk <--> Wigan.

 

[RT4038]

The Burscough Curves may seem "unglamorous" but it's this kind of focused, specific investment which opens up so much more possibility and should be the kind of infrastructure project which local authorities had the power to fund.

Preston to Southport by bus (the trustworthy workhouse X2) is a long, twisty-turny route through semi-rural suburbia, and is an unequal hybrid of express coach and hail-and-ride stopper. The Curves would offer an alternative. Not a replacement (for some of the communities on the bus route would have nothing were it taken away), just an alternative additional extra. The A49 over the River Douglas at Tarleton can get chocka, at the best of times. One smashed wall from one unfortunate accident and the entire route is closed: the Curves would come into their own.

That said, for the interest of balance, just relaying the Curves and getting Northern to run trains up and down would not be enough. The line into Preston would almost certainly need re-jigging, so services getting onto the WCML could do so without standing at Farington with the engine ticking over for too long. The line into Burscough and Ormskirk would need re-jigging, as MerseyRail would suddenly have a semi-kind-of-almost competitor into their territory. The line into Wigan would need re-jigging, not least because Southport <--> Wigan <--> Manchester services would need a few minutes added into the timetables with knock-on effects, however minor.

Lancashire County Council has (repeatedly) rejected the Curves as financially viable to re-open. This matters, because the argument in favour has to have a positive BCR. One tangentially related issue will be the Skelmersdale railway station scheme, if that ever gets built, because West Lancashire could then have a better financial case for linking Southport <--> Burscough <--> Ormskirk <--> Wigan.

But wouldn't a Preston-Southport rail service inevitably take some trade from the X2, probably resulting in a service reduction for the communities not served by rail?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

• A more spacious concourse at Bristol Temple Meads.

Could perhaps be considered the North for anyone living in Dorset, I suppose!

 

[Bletchleyite]

But wouldn't a Preston-Southport rail service inevitably take some trade from the X2, probably resulting in a service reduction for the communities not served by rail?

True, but I wouldn't say that was a reason not to do it.

 

[PR1Berske]

But wouldn't a Preston-Southport rail service inevitably take some trade from the X2, probably resulting in a service reduction for the communities not served by rail?

Yes it will, I agree with that point. Traffic will be lost. But the X2 would become like the 61/68s into Blackpool, I imagine. Still running, still useful to the communities without ready access to the railways.

What you're hinting at is important because Stagecoach do very well out of West Lancashire, including its Ormskirk bus which peels off the X2 route. The Curves would, for me, supplement rather than damage.

 

[S&CLER]

But wouldn't a Preston-Southport rail service inevitably take some trade from the X2, probably resulting in a service reduction for the communities not served by rail?

Improved rail services tend to attract custom from motorists who are much more willing to consider switching to trains (or trams) than to buses. Also, the X2 in my experience is largely patronised off peak and at weekends by ENCTS pass holders, who would presumably stay with it.

 

[Ianno87]

But wouldn't a Preston-Southport rail service inevitably take some trade from the X2, probably resulting in a service reduction for the communities not served by rail?

Hasn't happened for the X43 between Burnley and Manchester... If anything, it boosts general propensity to travel between the two places.

 

[Bevan Price]

1. It is pointless to electrify just Manchester Victoria to Rochdale when most of the services go beyond Rochdale. It only makes sense if the entire Calder Valley line is electrified through to Halifax, Bradford & Leeds (followed at some stage by the Copy Pit route through to Blackburn & Preston

2. I would scrap the proposal for Kirkby to Skelmersdale and instead reinstate Ormskirk to Skelmersdale, with a new extension to a couple of new stations in the "new town" area (possibly involving some new tunnels). I would also electrify from Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge (over-riding objectors to new 3rd schemes.) Then Ormskirk line services would then be extended alternately to Skelmersdale or Burscough Bridge.

 

[Ianno87]

1. It is pointless to electrify just Manchester Victoria to Rochdale when most of the services go beyond Rochdale. It only makes sense if the entire Calder Valley line is electrified through to Halifax, Bradford & Leeds (followed at some stage by the Copy Pit route through to Blackburn & Preston

2. I would scrap the proposal for Kirkby to Skelmersdale and instead reinstate Ormskirk to Skelmersdale, with a new extension to a couple of new stations in the "new town" area (possibly involving some new tunnels). I would also electrify from Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge (over-riding objectors to new 3rd schemes.) Then Ormskirk line services would then be extended alternately to Skelmersdale or Burscough Bridge.

1) Electrification to Rochdale and Stalybridge would be an opportunity to push through electric services that currently terminate at Victoria to free up capacity there

 

[The Planner]

2. I would scrap the proposal for Kirkby to Skelmersdale and instead reinstate Ormskirk to Skelmersdale, with a new extension to a couple of new stations in the "new town" area (possibly involving some new tunnels). I would also electrify from Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge (over-riding objectors to new 3rd schemes.) Then Ormskirk line services would then be extended alternately to Skelmersdale or Burscough Bridge.

Getting up to Headbolt Lane is much further progressed than anything the other direction and much more likely to happen so getting to Skem that way first has more chance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Getting up to Headbolt Lane is much further progressed than anything the other direction and much more likely to happen so getting to Skem that way first has more chance.

True. Though the advantage of going from Ormskirk is that there is a considerable travel demand between Skem and Ormskirk and vice-versa, but there isn't in the same way between Skem and Kirkby. That said, the roads aren't congested and there's a decent bus service.

There would also need to be a re-route around Westhead where a housing estate has been built on the trackbed, though it wouldn't be too hard to do that as it's just fields to the north.

Rainford is probably way cheaper, though, and possibly easier to get to a station site near the Concourse (which is where it'd have to be, if you're going to have it on the fringes you might as well just electrify to Upholland and run buses from there, possibly renaming it "Skem South Parkway" or something).

(I've looked at this one a lot, because I was rather obsessive about it and the Burscough Curves as a kid)

 

[RT4038]

Hasn't happened for the X43 between Burnley and Manchester... If anything, it boosts general propensity to travel between the two places.

Has happened with the Galashiels-Edinburgh service....

 

[S&CLER]

True. Though the advantage of going from Ormskirk is that there is a considerable travel demand between Skem and Ormskirk and vice-versa, but there isn't in the same way between Skem and Kirkby. That said, the roads aren't congested and there's a decent bus service.

There would also need to be a re-route around Westhead where a housing estate has been built on the trackbed, though it wouldn't be too hard to do that as it's just fields to the north.

Rainford is probably way cheaper, though, and possibly easier to get to a station site near the Concourse (which is where it'd have to be, if you're going to have it on the fringes you might as well just electrify to Upholland and run buses from there, possibly renaming it "Skem South Parkway" or something).

(I've looked at this one a lot, because I was rather obsessive about it and the Burscough Curves as a kid)

Besides Westhead, the old trackbed was built on/converted into a road in the Blaguegate/Pennylands area of Skem. From Rainford, to get a route to Skem Concourse would only involve crossing open farmland in the Holland Moss area, where there is room for the proposed triangular junction to allow a Skem-Wigan dmu (assuming that electrification at 25kV through Wigan Wallgate is ruled out by astronomical costs) and the limited freight service to Knowsley.

Much more trivially, I still wish Headbolt Lane could be renamed Simonswood (pron. Simmonswood). I haven't seen any info. on whether or not the Headbolt Lane scheme includes any redoubling; the M57 bridge near Switch Island would be prohibitively expensive to widen, but the A506 bridge might be more affordable.