Unfair Penalty fare Prosecution HELP!!

[hazzamabam]

Hi

In basic terms i was caught on a Greater Anglia train without a ticket recently.

When i was caught i explained my situation to the ticket inspectors but the took none of it so i received a letter in the post asking if i was the person i said i was which i replied to saying yes i was and explaining my case hoping that they wouldnt give me a penalty and would just charge my ticket price. I got a reply saying something along the lines of. The usual thing is to prosecute everyone (i cant see that being true seems like a bit of scaremongering). In this case we are going to charge you the normal ticket fare plus an admin charge (which i was fine about) until i read £78.60 now the ticket price is roughly £20 on a Sunday morning so i was pretty angry about an almost £60 admin charge what's that about...i rang them up and again explained saying i didnt want to pay the admin charge and the just again threatened me with court and stuff like that they then gave me the bank details for a transfer whereby i transfered £30 and sent a final email explaining that this was to cover the ticket price and a bit extra to cover whatever there ridiculous admin charge was for (paper??, postal??). I got a reply today saying that if i didnt pay the rest in 3 days i would be taken to court and prosecuted. Im scared because i dont want to end up with a criminal record (mostly this) i cant realistically fork out whatever a lawyer will cost and i dont want to end up paying thousands over £50 but its the principle i feel like im being mugged off and that i have no power thats whats really annoying me.

Heres my story:

sunday morning tottenham hale i try to buy a ticket in both ticket machines neither of them even recognise my card (it was slightly snapped but had worked all of satuday ive now replaced it) so i spoke to the guy at the barriers he let me through and again tried with his handheld machine which also didnt work, my freind then kindly tried with his card aswell but had no money left on it and then the railman said to sort it out at the other end and let me through the barrier. I have said in all my letters that they can pull up the CCTV footage and check that this is true so i dont see why i should be paying 4 times my ticket price when i had FULL intention of paying the fare and in no way tried to avoid paying. Being honest now i did walk up to the end of the train when i saw ticket inspectors as i wished to just avoid explaining myself and the conflict but about 20 seconds from my stop the unfortunately reached me. Other than that i did nothing to be seen as deliberatly trying to avoid paying the ticket fare and i have already payed them £30 to cover the ticket price + more this is simply now over the made up figure of an admin charge left to pay will i really get taken to court over this when i have given them there money

Any advice would be greatly appreciated and feel free to ask me questions if your a bit shady on some details of my case

Thanks Harry

 

[GadgetMan]

You say the fare would be £20ish on a Sunday. How much is the Anytime Single fare for the journey you made as that is the amount they will be pursuing in addition to the admin fee.

Although the Barrier staff allowed you to make the journey with the understanding you can sort the fare out at the other end, the big question this raises is how were you planning on paying at the other end of your journey? Your card is damaged which is not the Railway's problem and your friend did not have funds to cover your ticket.

Pay the amount they are asking for and avoid traveling without a Valid ticket in future where an opportunity to buy before traveling exists. Going to court will end up costing you more and you will almost definitely lose the case.

 

[34D]

What he said. Pay the other £40. Can always do a complaint to customer services after you've paid

 

[455driver]

You were on a train without a valid ticket, end of!
If you dont pay the full amount as requested then they will take you to Court, and if it goes to Court you will have zero defence as it is your responsibility to ensure you have a valid ticket so you will be found guilty as it is a strict liability offence (a simple yes/no question). the fine will be a lot more than the 'admin' fee whether you agree with it or not.

If you feel aggrieved by the 'admin' fee then go to Court and contest it.

 

[lucyjacobs89]

Maybe just pay for your alleged mistakes or you might end up with a huge court fine and a record. Feeling a bit mugged off is a better feeling than a criminal record, no? Then maybe you can sort it afterwards like the others suggested

 

[richw]

From what you've said I would suggest paying the amount they are requesting.
From the info you've provided here you are guilty or travelling without a ticket or means to pay due to your damaged card.
Have a look through the disputes and prosecutions area of the forum. There are some threads highlighting fines issued by court for ticketless travel and are typically in the £300-£600 range. This puts the amount they are requesting into perspective for you.

 

[furlong]

the railman said to sort it out at the other end and let me through the barrier.

How likely do you think it is that the railman would make a statement confirming what you say, that he provided you with verbal authority to travel? Did you give this explanation on the train and suggest they attempt to contact this person to confirm it?

Occasionally people report success in paying up in full to remove the threat of prosecution, and then pursuing the matter through Customer Services to obtain part of their money back where they think they were handled unfairly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have said in all my letters that they can pull up the CCTV footage and check that this is true

So have you effectively given them notice that, were they to pursue this into court, some CCTV footage may form part of your defence case and therefore they must be sure to preserve this footage in case it is needed as evidence?

 

[Nick W]

In theory, it will be up to GA to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the OP wasn't given authority to travel without a ticket, on the understanding that the OP would rectify the problem at the destination. This could be difficult for the company if it cannot provide a satisfactory explanation for how the OP managed to pass through barriers in the absence of this!

However I am worried that the OP's conduct to date may have complicated matters.

 

[furlong]

You were on a train without a valid ticket, end of!

Not 'end of' if an authorised person did indeed give him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

 

[455driver]

Not 'end of' if an authorised person did indeed give him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

So saying "the man at the station said it would be okay" is the defence!
For some strange reason I cant see that working otherwise everyone would say it.

 

[furlong]

So saying "the man at the station said it would be okay" is the defence!

If that can be substantiated. Not if it is untrue.

No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
...
an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

I agree with Nick W that, based on the (necessarily incomplete) picture we have been given here, there seem to be complications for both sides.

 

[Flamingo]

Even if we take the OP's story at face value, how did they think they were going to sort it the other end, and why did they try to run away from the RPI's if they had been given permission?

My advice to them would be pay up, and ignore the quasi-defences being posted, as none of them will work.

Otherwise, let us know which court will it be in, I want to try out my new popcorn maker...

 

[najaB]

...Im scared because i dont want to end up with a criminal record (mostly this) i cant realistically fork out whatever a lawyer will cost and i dont want to end up paying thousands over £50 but its the principle i feel like im being mugged off and that i have no power thats whats really annoying me....

Any advice would be greatly appreciated....

Pay the £50 and then raise a complaint with the customer services team afterwards. As you said, a lawyer will cost you way more than £50 and there's no guarantee little chance that you'll win - what would a criminal conviction cost you?

 

[WillPS]

I would echo the comments made above. Do you perhaps have your snapped card still? You could offer this as evidence additionally. I would expect customer service to make a refund regardless of the legality - which unfortunately is that you committed a strict liability offense. For that reason though, I would de-escalate the matter by paying the £50 under protest.

Ignore the "pay the money and think of yourself as an idiot" type comments.

 

[najaB]

In theory, it will be up to GA to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the OP wasn't given authority to travel without a ticket...

For a Regulation of the Railways Act conviction, yes. For a byelaws prosecution, then no: it is up to the OP to show that he was given permission as you are guilty unless given permission to travel without a ticket.

 

[455driver]

I would echo the comments made above. Do you perhaps have your snapped card still? You could offer this as evidence additionally. I would expect customer service to make a refund regardless of the legality - which unfortunately is that you committed a strict liability offense. For that reason though, I would de-escalate the matter by paying the £50 under protest.

Ignore the "pay the money and think of yourself as an idiot" type comments.

So the OP was unable to pay as the card had snapped, how exactly was he going to pay at the other end?
The fare is due before the journey starts, the OP was unable to pay so therefore should not have started the journey.

All the liberals on here will only lead the OP down a very expensive route and it is the OP that will have pay for it not them.

 

[island]

How were you planning on paying for your ticket "at the other end" given that your card was damaged?

 

[neilmc]

I'm one of those terrible liberals but my advice also would be to pay up.

Although there's a defence against the charge of ticketless travel that an "authorised person" gave you permission, finding this person at a major London station is another matter and, unless there's a wholesale failure of equipment or the like to which other passengers can attest, likely to prove impossible.

And there's the other consideration that "authorised persons" may well lie through their teeth and claim you misunderstood or ignored their advice, which (even if your version of events is 100% kosher) may have been given simply to get you off of the station and on to a train thus becoming someone else's problem.

Sorry but the legislation is stacked against you.

 

[Flamingo]

Ignore the "pay the money and think of yourself as an idiot" type comments.

But if nobody tells him how will he know?

 

[A-driver]

I'm a little confused by the comments "an authorised person gave him permission".

We only have the OPs word for this. Do we know that this is exactly what the "railman" as he was described, actually said? Could it have been misinterpreted?

I would have thought it fairly obvious that one should seek something in writing rather than taking someone's word. And I'm unsure what CCTV would prove other than watching a conversation between people.

 

[hazzamabam]

to people asking how i was going to sort it out at the other end, that was being planned as i was on the train i was probably going to get my mum to wait for me at the other end of the line and to pay at my destination when i got there.

It is genuinely what happen hence why i keep emphasising the fact that they can pull up CCTV footage and watch there employee let me through the barrier after me trying both ticket machines and then trying his handheld machine before him waving me on.

 

[Nick W]

The OP would claim that barriers were in operation and that he had no ticket but was let through. No evidence collected by the TOC would dispute this.

[But the OP's subsequent dealings have muddied the waters, and the general advise posted (settle the matter) may well be advised.]

 

[najaB]

The OP would claim that barriers were in operation and that he had no ticket but was let through. No evidence collected by the TOC would dispute this.

The best that that CCTV could prove is that he was let through the barriers. It can't provide any details about what was said before he was let through - assuming that it shows even that.

 

[Nick W]

The best that that CCTV could prove is that he was let through the barriers. It can't provide any details about what was said before he was let through - assuming that it shows even that.

How else can you explain this?
"I'm desperate for the toilet but first can you check my card and my friend's card worked?"? "I'm meeting a friend off the train, but would also like to check my card"? "I'll let you through anyway, and you can get it at the other end, but I do not authorise you to travel. "

There would need to be more evidence to dispute the OP's story.

 

[tony6499]

As you admit to running away then that would imply guilt to the RPI, or that you had something to hide. Listen to the advice of others and pay up and get the matter dealt with before it escalates.

 

[najaB]

How else can you explain this?

Not knowing the layout of the station in question it could've been "Try it in that machine and come back if it doesn't work." (if it's a station with an 'excess fares' type machine). The point is, there's no way that CCTV can prove that he was given permission to travel.

There would need to be more evidence to dispute the OP's story.

Not necessarily - the byelaws say that you have to be able to show a ticket or be able to prove that you have permission to travel. Admittedly it wouldn't carry the risk of a criminal record, but he's even less chance of being found not-guilty since, at best, all he can prove is that he spoke to someone and then passed through the barriers.

 

[Nick W]

Not knowing the layout of the station in question it could've been "Try it in that machine and come back if it doesn't work." (if it's a station with an 'excess fares' type machine). The point is, there's no way that CCTV can prove that he was given permission to travel.

All that's required is enough evidence to yield reasonable doubt.

Not necessarily - the byelaws say that you have to be able to show a ticket or be able to prove that you have permission to travel.

Where?

You will notice that parts of the Railway Byelaws state that "written permission" is needed, but other parts such as s.18 require mere "permission". Surely verbal permission is sufficient if the exception proves the rule?

 

[A-driver]

I am happy to be corrected here as I'm not 100% on this but I don't believe that you are entitled to travel until you have purchased a ticket (unless machines are broken etc). Therefore, having someone meet you at the other end with the money isn't acceptable. You may be permitted to do this out of goodwill but I don't believe you are entitled to do this.

No matter what the reason for travel, if you are unable to buy a ticket (weather it be as you have no money or because your card does not work) you should not be travelling.

 

[Nick W]

As you admit to running away then that would imply guilt to the RPI, or that you had something to hide. Listen to the advice of others and pay up and get the matter dealt with before it escalates.

The OP has provided a reasonable explanation for this foolish course of action, but I agree that that paying up is the most prudent course of action as a result.

 

[A-driver]

All that's required is enough evidence to yield reasonable doubt.





Where?



You will notice that parts of the Railway Byelaws state that "written permission" is needed, but other parts such as s.18 require mere "permission". Surely verbal permission is sufficient if the exception proves the rule?

How do you prove verbal permission? What if they gateline staff are asked and they deny giving permission? I can't see how verbal permission can be accepted or trusted and would personally want something in writing.