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Unfair Penalty fare Prosecution HELP!!

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drbdrb

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This is going all around the houses with little to no help to the OP I'm afraid. If he is unable to prove that he was given permission to travel by an authorised person, then he is likely on a hiding to nothing.

Nonsense.

He tells them to take it to court, where the member of staff on the gateline can explain the CCTV coverage.

CCTV showing that the OP has tried their card in two ticket machines, and then the gateline member of staff letting them through the barrier to try the card in their machine, and then the OP going off to get the train.

On every occasion I have passed by when a gateline employee has encountered a fare dodger who is trying to get in or out, it is blindingly obvious what is going on, even if you have not heard the conversation.

Magistrates are not stupid, and if the gateline employee cannot give a convincing explanation, game over.

As for the arguments about whether somebody is an "authorised person" or not, I remember some people quite getting the hump when it was suggested that they needed to provide evidence of their authority, with an attitude of "if my uniform and badge is not enough"...
 
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Flamingo

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Are you going to pay the fine for him if your advice proves to be total bull-****?
 

reb0118

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A gateline assistant may have the authority to allow someone through their gate but does not have the authority to allow them to board trains without a valid ticket or permit.

Part IV general conditions
58. Limitation of authority of a Train Company's staff or agents

A Train Company's staff or agents have no authority to waive or change these Conditions.

The above from the national conditions of carriage and railway byelaws taken from the EMT website - the first one that came up upon a web search.
 
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A-driver

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What fine. He isn't guilty of anything.


'Fine' is a word generally used to imply a financial penalty. Trying to pick up on use of the word instead of PF is just being a pedant and is not helpful or worthwhile.
 

najaB

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'Fine' is a word generally used to imply a financial penalty. Trying to pick up on use of the word instead of PF is just being a pedant and is not helpful or worthwhile.
From what the OP has said, it's not even a penalty fare that's in dispute, it's £50 or so of charges. Which makes it even more ridiculous that he's not paying it and instead it's taking (or not as it turns out) about going to court about it.
 

Flamingo

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What fine. He isn't guilty of anything.

The fine the magistrates will impose after they hear the case, and find him guilty of a Bylaw 18 open and shut case.

So far the only excuse the OP has is "The man on the platform said it was OK" and "My mum was going to meet me and pay", which are right up there with "My dog ate my homework".

The TOC do not have to prove anything other than the OP was there and did not have a ticket. The OP is the one that has to furnish the defence. He is highly unlikely to be able to do so.
 
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Nick W

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The fine the magistrates will impose after they hear the case, and find him guilty of a Bylaw 18 open and shut case.

But not without its complications. I suspect that at least two rail workers will have to attend. The TOC will surely have to do their preparation and prove that the ticket machine was in working order, particularly if the OP claims to have used the card successfully after the event and the staff member agrees. The staff member will also have some explaining to do if the OP is telling the truth (and the assumption here seems to be that the OP isn't. I assume the OP probably is given this is an anonymous forum.).
 

A-driver

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But not without its complications. I suspect that at least two rail workers will have to attend. The TOC will surely have to do their preparation and prove that the ticket machine was in working order, particularly if the OP claims to have used the card successfully after the event and the staff member agrees. The staff member will also have some explaining to do if the OP is telling the truth (and the assumption here seems to be that the OP isn't. I assume the OP probably is given this is an anonymous forum.).


Easy to prove a ticket machine is working and irrelevant anyway as the OP admits his card was broken. As for being verbally told to travel it comes down to exact wording. Also, the OP has dug a hole for himself by running away from the RPIs. This backs up that the gateline staff did not give him authority to travel. Not wanting to explain a situation is not reasonable cause to suspiciously run away from the collectors. He must have known how suspicious that would look. It's like deliberately avoiding eye contact with and giving a wide birth to customs officers at an airport. It's obvious you have something to hide.
 

jon0844

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I've seen and heard permission being given, verbally, which I've thought is BOUND to give problems to the person later on. Obviously I've not followed them to see if that was the case.

These 'people on the platform that said it was okay' DO exist. Nowhere near as often as claimed, but once is too many. These people do no favours for the rest of the railway staff, although I am sure they all feel they're being helpful and not considering the potential for problems. Or maybe some are aware, but don't care as long as it gets rid of the person?

And I've been given advice that I believed to be incorrect. But I will never accept verbal permission, for obvious reasons, so I ask for something in writing. In ALL of the situations where I've been suspicious of what I'm told, my request has been refused. I sometimes get the question 'Why do you need that? Don't you believe me?' and still get refused!

It's obviously little comfort to the OP now, but if a member of staff did let him through and give what appeared to be permission to sort things out at the other end, then it would be vital to get that in writing - or on tape/camera. But the chances are, the OP would then find such permission would be retracted very sharpish if a camera or 'tape recorder' pulled out.

In my opinion, the ONLY viable solution is to pay IN FULL right away and then make a complaint to the TOC to recover the money.

DO NOT IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TRY AND FIGHT THIS IN COURT!

I'll add the usual disclaimer of 'assuming the facts given here are truthful' first, but there seems to be a valid case for complaint. Had you not been let through, you'd obviously have been stuck but at the same time not get into the situation you are in now. You might have chosen to, say, get a taxi to someone who could give you some money.

Trying to avoid the RPIs was silly, although I suppose I can sympathise about the thought of having to explain to them when you wanted to sort it at the destination, but unless the RPIs knew you were walking away to avoid them - I am not sure they'd know you even did that? And of course, I assume you aren't lying about having made arrangements to have someone meet you to pay (as against try and walk out and not pay at all).

And, finally, if you were so sure your card might still work in another machine, perhaps you can argue that you DID have a means to pay. But perhaps the staff at Tottenham Hale should have advised on other options, such as SILK.

Finally, let me say again - PAY UP and then seek to try and resolve things afterwards.
 

Llanigraham

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But not without its complications. I suspect that at least two rail workers will have to attend. The TOC will surely have to do their preparation and prove that the ticket machine was in working order, particularly if the OP claims to have used the card successfully after the event and the staff member agrees. The staff member will also have some explaining to do if the OP is telling the truth (and the assumption here seems to be that the OP isn't. I assume the OP probably is given this is an anonymous forum.).

Have you ever attend a Magistrates Court hearing, even as a member of the public? Somehow I doubt it from that response.
2 rail workers will not be needed, 1 would be fine, and as an employee only needs to make a statement that the ticket machine was working.
 

EM2

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Have you ever attend a Magistrates Court hearing, even as a member of the public? Somehow I doubt it from that response.
2 rail workers will not be needed, 1 would be fine, and as an employee only needs to make a statement that the ticket machine was working.
I have, as a witness. And yes, two rail workers were called, myself and a colleague.
 

34D

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A gateline assistant may have the authority to allow someone through their gate but does not have the authority to allow them to board trains without a valid ticket or permit.



The above from the national conditions of carriage and railway byelaws taken from the EMT website - the first one that came up upon a web search.

I absolutely agree with you, in terms of your operational procedures at Scotrail.

But from the passenger perspective, we don't have tiers of authorised people - just one level
 

cjmillsnun

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I've seen and heard permission being given, verbally, which I've thought is BOUND to give problems to the person later on. Obviously I've not followed them to see if that was the case.

These 'people on the platform that said it was okay' DO exist. Nowhere near as often as claimed, but once is too many. These people do no favours for the rest of the railway staff, although I am sure they all feel they're being helpful and not considering the potential for problems. Or maybe some are aware, but don't care as long as it gets rid of the person?

And I've been given advice that I believed to be incorrect. But I will never accept verbal permission, for obvious reasons, so I ask for something in writing. In ALL of the situations where I've been suspicious of what I'm told, my request has been refused. I sometimes get the question 'Why do you need that? Don't you believe me?' and still get refused!

It's obviously little comfort to the OP now, but if a member of staff did let him through and give what appeared to be permission to sort things out at the other end, then it would be vital to get that in writing - or on tape/camera. But the chances are, the OP would then find such permission would be retracted very sharpish if a camera or 'tape recorder' pulled out.

In my opinion, the ONLY viable solution is to pay IN FULL right away and then make a complaint to the TOC to recover the money.

DO NOT IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TRY AND FIGHT THIS IN COURT!

I'll add the usual disclaimer of 'assuming the facts given here are truthful' first, but there seems to be a valid case for complaint. Had you not been let through, you'd obviously have been stuck but at the same time not get into the situation you are in now. You might have chosen to, say, get a taxi to someone who could give you some money.

Trying to avoid the RPIs was silly, although I suppose I can sympathise about the thought of having to explain to them when you wanted to sort it at the destination, but unless the RPIs knew you were walking away to avoid them - I am not sure they'd know you even did that? And of course, I assume you aren't lying about having made arrangements to have someone meet you to pay (as against try and walk out and not pay at all).

And, finally, if you were so sure your card might still work in another machine, perhaps you can argue that you DID have a means to pay. But perhaps the staff at Tottenham Hale should have advised on other options, such as SILK.

Finally, let me say again - PAY UP and then seek to try and resolve things afterwards.

Agreed. It's the way that has a chance of working.
 

maniacmartin

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Every time I've asked a railway employee to put something in writing, they've told me they "are not allowed to". The man on the platform always says, but never writes.
 

reb0118

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The man on the platform always says, but never writes.

Reminds me of the old army saying with regard to NCO ranks:-

Three stripes ~ can read and write,

Two stripes ~ can read or write, and,

One stripe ~ knows someone who can read or write. :p

That said I often endorse passengers tickets to authorise something out of the ordinary as a form of customer service.
 

jon0844

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Every time I've asked a railway employee to put something in writing, they've told me they "are not allowed to". The man on the platform always says, but never writes.

Funny that isn't it? They probably got the rule from the same book that says they can't do things you know they can!
 

Flamingo

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Reminds me of the old army saying with regard to NCO ranks:-

Three stripes ~ can read and write,

Two stripes ~ can read or write, and,

One stripe ~ knows someone who can read or write. :p

That said I often endorse passengers tickets to authorise something out of the ordinary as a form of customer service.
Or the old one about why KGB men go around in three's - one to do the reading, one to do the writing, and one to keep an eye on the two intellectuals.
 
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