Unelectrified transfer lines in London (Private Eye)

[GRALISTAIR]

He made a reply to the transport select committee and they have his suggestions. Obviously the real biggie is not infill and that of course is F2N.

Plus of course Berks and Hants to Merehead and Whatley quarries then on to Taunton.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

In terms of what's been added to the electrified network since 2010, there's not really been much that is useful for freight yet.

The biggest one is Gospel Oak - Barking, which has made future electric to Thames Gateway (+Purfleet/Dagenham/Tilbury) more practical, as already discussed.

Indeed. So glad that got done. I know it was London but at the time money was being spent elsewhere too. GOBLIN was and is a great piece of infrastructure to be electrified and makes future infills so much easier.

 

[Class 170101]

I believe its still restricted to two electric freight trains in section though.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I believe its still restricted to two electric freight trains in section though.

Grid feeder issues I assume?

 

[Class 170101]

Grid feeder issues I assume?

I believe so

 

[59CosG95]

Carlton Rd - Junction Road comes up regularly; and the amount of freight that would switch to electric haulage if it was (expensively) electrified is precisely nil. There’s plenty of people in the industry who still haven’t realised that.

Acton Wells to Acton Main Line is a better example, as is the London Gateway branch, Acton Wells to West London Jn, and Acton Wells to Harlesden J via Acton Canal Wharf.

The trouble with all these connections, though, is that they are linking up different feeding sections, which means complex electrical sectioning (as per Gospel Oak - Barking), and that makes short stretches very expensive.

As ever, treat the writings of “Dr B Ching” with extreme caution.

Acton Wells (ECR: Rugby) - Acton ML (ECR: Didcot): Neutral Section required
Junction Rd (ECR: Rugby) - Carlton Rd (ECR: York): NS req'd, plus lots of civils work
On the GOBLIN: Gospel Oak - South Tottenham (inc.) has Rugby as its ECR, and South Tottenham (exc.) - Barking has Romford as its ECR.

Sectioning between all the different ECRs, and all the signalling changes that would need to occur if any of these lines were to be electrified, looks like an absolute nightmare. However, a Static Frequency Converter (as installed for Potteric Carr Independent Feeder last year) could be a way around the phase imbalances between the feeders.

 

[59CosG95]

I believe so

I also wonder if this could be an issue between Barking & Thames Haven Junction (i.e. London Gateway), which would need addressing if Gateway was to be wired.

 

[Taunton]

Carlton Rd - Junction Road comes up regularly; and the amount of freight that would switch to electric haulage if it was (expensively) electrified is precisely nil. There’s plenty of people in the industry who still haven’t realised that.

Looking at it from a Goblin passenger train, would have thought the Junction Road link westbound could be done entirely on gravity - looks like it's about 1 in 50 downhill all the way!

 

[Bald Rick]

Looking at it from a Goblin passenger train, would have thought the Junction Road link westbound could be done entirely on gravity - looks like it's about 1 in 50 downhill all the way!

Indeed. Unfortunately most freight traffic that way is empty, and loaded going the other way!

 

[InOban]

That’s what that battery powered 08 is for.

Surely it's what the class 88 is for?

 

[59CosG95]

Surely it's what the class 88 is for?

The 88, and the abilities it offers, is currently used by DRS alone. For DB Cargo, Freightliner, and GBRf (the only operators who run intermodals, unless Colas joins the fray), they need to rely on having shunters at terminals with their current fleet.

 

[Domh245]

Not to mention that if enough yards and terminals are electrified, it's much better value to have a diesel (or battery!) shunter or two at each of them and pure electric locos on the mainline, rather than procuring lots of bi-modal locomotives which spend most of their lives not using their expensive bit

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

Another embuggerance is the 3rd-rail from Southampton to Basingstoke, to Kew, and to North Pole. To run E-locos would require a bi-current electro-diesel, which is a lot to fit in a UK gauge body. The 'Electric Spine' would have dealt with that, but by not running to Brum and the North-West it missed a trick, as that's where the traffic goes (wouldn't expect DaFT to know that, of course).
Pat

 

[59CosG95]

Another embuggerance is the 3rd-rail from Southampton to Basingstoke, to Kew, and to North Pole. To run E-locos would require a bi-current electro-diesel, which is a lot to fit in a UK gauge body. The 'Electric Spine' would have dealt with that, but by not running to Brum and the North-West it missed a trick, as that's where the traffic goes (wouldn't expect DaFT to know that, of course).
Pat

Indeed it would, however the handling of GWEP (amongst many other factors) kiboshed it into the long grass very quickly, especially with regards the conversion from DC to AC making everything that much more complex.
Feeding arrangements would have to change, signalling arrangements would have to change (not sure if the signalling from Basingstoke to Southampton MCT is AC-immune), major civils work would inevitably have to take place (the tunnels in Southampton, Popham, Waller's Ash & Litchfield, among others), etc., etc.

And that's even before you order the materials for the work, the labour, and the plant for the work...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Not to mention that if enough yards and terminals are electrified, it's much better value to have a diesel (or battery!) shunter or two at each of them and pure electric locos on the mainline, rather than procuring lots of bi-modal locomotives which spend most of their lives not using their expensive bit

Almost worthy of its own thread but yes, an electric shunter is needed or will be in future for use in the UK. I am surprised it has not happened before now.

 

[apk55]

Modern electric locomotives can achieve such high power weight ratios that ballast is often needed. A class 88 can not achieve full power output until it is doing almost 50MPH (because of tractive effort limitations) so increasing the power output would achieve little benefit for most freight operations.
Adding a small diesel generator to an electric loco probably does not cost much and acts as a useful ballast weight. As well as being able to shunt off line they would have the advantage
a/ Self rescue in event of a power failure
b/ Rescue other trains in event of a power failure. A class 88 could move any passenger train at modest speed out of trouble.
C/ work engineering trains

 

[HSTEd]

Our main problem is that operators still seem to believe in the mixed traffic locomotive, at least for electrics.

Noone has decided to make a dual voltage electrodiesel yet, but then again they are turning out Bo-Bo locomotives that are clearly not optimised for freight operations.

We have no idea whether a Class 88/92 hybrid is possible on a Co-Co locomotive body yet.
And it looks like we won't find out any time soon.

 

[Class 170101]

Acton Wells (ECR: Rugby) - Acton ML (ECR: Didcot): Neutral Section required
Junction Rd (ECR: Rugby) - Carlton Rd (ECR: York): NS req'd, plus lots of civils work
On the GOBLIN: Gospel Oak - South Tottenham (inc.) has Rugby as its ECR, and South Tottenham (exc.) - Barking has Romford as its ECR.

Sectioning between all the different ECRs, and all the signalling changes that would need to occur if any of these lines were to be electrified, looks like an absolute nightmare. However, a Static Frequency Converter (as installed for Potteric Carr Independent Feeder last year) could be a way around the phase imbalances between the feeders.

Why was the T&H Route electrified with the split between ECRs at South Tottenham rather than to the west towards Haringay Park? South Tottenham itself was previously under Romford ECR and now there is a situation where a train can leave Romford control just after Tottenham South Jn, pass into Rugby Control and then approaching Sevens Sisters return to Romford Control again. Seems a risky thing to do.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Hybrid shunter conversion ready for testing

TRACTION: A 60 year old diesel shunting locomotive has been re-engineered with a low-emission hybrid traction package using automotive technology, as part of a research programme backed by the UK’s Department for Transport. TRACTION: A 60 year old diesel shunting locomotive has been...

www.railwaygazette.com

”A 60 year old diesel shunting locomotive has been re-engineered with a low-emission hybrid traction package using automotive technology, as part of a research programme backed by the UK’s Department for Transport”

An electric 08. Interesting to note that the class 08 design can trace its lineage back to the LMS's very first shunter, No 1831, which was converted from a "Jinty" steam engine in 1927. (Frames, wheels and coupling rods).

(My own 60-year old Hornby 08 is now running on a secondhand Triang "Jinty" steam chassis - so it's an electrically powered model of a diesel loco on a steam chassis)

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

An electric 08. Interesting to note that the class 08 design can trace its lineage back to the LMS's very first shunter, No 1831, which was converted from a "Jinty" steam engine in 1927. (Frames, wheels and coupling rods).

(My own 60-year old Hornby 08 is now running on a secondhand Triang "Jinty" steam chassis)

They say there is a prototype for everything.
Pat