Unacceptable TOC behaviour: First Class, or not First Class

[Tetchytyke]

TBH if you are so worried about accidentally sitting in a (admittedly poorly advertised) 1st class seat then dont sit in the bit between the cab and first set of passenger doors

1st class is in an intermediate carriage on the 377/6 and 377/7s

 

[Anchorman_02]

Having read a little on these "shocking" trains it would seem they were specified to have high capacity seating arrangements and my guess is that first class seating has been added as a result of franchise agreement or customer demand. I doubt very much whether the units are leaving the depot without seat markings (I'd never even heard of the name for them before reading this thread) but there are certainly no carriages in this country where first class is split left and right so if there are any on a seat it applies to the whole compartment. The people contributing to this thread are able to describe the first class stickers and even which part of the formation they are likely to find it in.

I've been in situations before where we've been stranded due to an incident of some kind and despite the best efforts to keep the customers informed, there are always a few that think it's "disgusting" or "outrageous" as if somebody has created the situation intentionally or through some sort of negligence. There is no thought for the people that are doing their best to put it right either by sorting out the chaos it causes, walking out for miles and fixing a defect in all weathers or even gathering bits of body up off the track. It's always somebody's fault. Somebody has dared to interfere with the routine of these most important individuals who don't have time to suffer such a catastrophe. Well I've got news for them. Railway staff and railway companies don't like it either. Everybody wants everything perfect but we can't always have it.

Anyway, it's all solved now because I've arranged a swap with Northern and you are getting the entire fleet of 142s down there. I'm afraid the first class compartments STILL look very much like standard or even steerage if it comes to that. The people of the north west dream of going to work on units like 377s so they'll be happy to sit on third rail stock even if it can't take power. Oh and by the way, you'll need to learn how to kick a waist lock when the brakes won't release and you'll also be needing those expletives that were removed from this thread - outrageous, disgusting, shocking.

 

[HowardGWR]

We made the same mistake on a Gatwick train (we travel a few times per year in total) and were lucky to spot the small sticker on a crowded train and get out before we suffered further embarrassment. Totally with the OP and having read the further comments, especially the unsympathetic ones, even more so. The word for 'First' is not a small '1'. This could be solved in no time with some decently big stickers and a PIS announcement.

 

[Anchorman_02]

We made the same mistake on a Gatwick train (we travel a few times per year in total) and were lucky to spot the small sticker on a crowded train and get out before we suffered further embarrassment. Totally with the OP and having read the further comments, especially the unsympathetic ones, even more so. The word for 'First' is not a small '1'. This could be solved in no time with some decently big stickers and a PIS announcement.

Do you mean first was crowded or the rear of the train was crowded and first wasn't?

 

[21C101]

Having read a little on these "shocking" trains it would seem they were specified to have high capacity seating arrangements and my guess is that first class seating has been added as a result of franchise agreement or customer demand. I doubt very much whether the units are leaving the depot without seat markings (I'd never even heard of the name for them before reading this thread) but there are certainly no carriages in this country where first class is split left and right so if there are any on a seat it applies to the whole compartment. The people contributing to this thread are able to describe the first class stickers and even which part of the formation they are likely to find it in.

I've been in situations before where we've been stranded due to an incident of some kind and despite the best efforts to keep the customers informed, there are always a few that think it's "disgusting" or "outrageous" as if somebody has created the situation intentionally or through some sort of negligence. There is no thought for the people that are doing their best to put it right either by sorting out the chaos it causes, walking out for miles and fixing a defect in all weathers or even gathering bits of body up off the track. It's always somebody's fault. Somebody has dared to interfere with the routine of these most important individuals who don't have time to suffer such a catastrophe. Well I've got news for them. Railway staff and railway companies don't like it either. Everybody wants everything perfect but we can't always have it.

Anyway, it's all solved now because I've arranged a swap with Northern and you are getting the entire fleet of 142s down there. I'm afraid the first class compartments STILL look very much like standard or even steerage if it comes to that. The people of the north west dream of going to work on units like 377s so they'll be happy to sit on third rail stock even if it can't take power. Oh and by the way, you'll need to learn how to kick a waist lock when the brakes won't release and you'll also be needing those expletives that were removed from this thread - outrageous, disgusting, shocking.

Hmm.

Annual season ticket Wigan to Manchester £1092
Annual season ticket Redhill to London £2612.

I think you will find people down here would gladly have 142s for that fares.As it is they pay nearly three times as much then subsidise your fares through their taxes.

As for out in the rain etc. Been there done that got the hiviz.

This isnt about how comfortable trains are down here it is about inadequate marking of first class areas confusing innnocent pax who then get penalty fared or even prosecuted ruining their career by them getting a criminal record (although I would hope such cases never got to court).

 

[All Line Rover]

I think everyone has had a good opportunity to see the pictures and make up their own mind one way or the other, so I have removed them. If the situation improves I will of course post an update.

 

[Anchorman_02]

For anyone viewing this thread for the first time, the OP has now re-titled it, removed or modified several words from the original thread and has now removed the photographs that proved without doubt that you could tell you were inside the first class compartment. It is true that the markings were not large and that the entrance doors were not clearly marked but there is nevertheless a sticker on every window in line with a seat that doesn't appear in all other areas of the train.

Any more back peddling and the thread can be renamed "Southern carriages adequately marked up so don't go in there if you have a standard ticket".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hmm.

Annual season ticket Wigan to Manchester £1092
Annual season ticket Redhill to London £2612.

I think you will find people down here would gladly have 142s for that fares.As it is they pay nearly three times as much then subsidise your fares through their taxes.

As for out in the rain etc. Been there done that got the hiviz.

This isnt about how comfortable trains are down here it is about inadequate marking of first class areas confusing innnocent pax who then get penalty fared or even prosecuted ruining their career by them getting a criminal record (although I would hope such cases never got to court).

Yes well you get weighted salaries to pay for your tickets. There are references to the first class compartment being just as uncomfortable as the rest of the train and nobody will be going to court because Southern are not pressing the issue.

 

[21C101]

For anyone viewing this thread for the first time, the OP has now re-titled it, removed or modified several words from the original thread and has now removed the photographs that proved without doubt that you could tell you were inside the first class compartment. It is true that the markings were not large and that the entrance doors were not clearly marked but there is nevertheless a sticker on every window in line with a seat that doesn't appear in all other areas of the train.

Any more back peddling and the thread can be renamed "Southern carriages adequately marked up so don't go in there if you have a standard ticket".

It wasn't just about southern and within the last 20 minutes I've just got off a GTR train that did not have first class stickers on any of the windows of the first class compartment.

 

[All Line Rover]

Better yet, people could travel on a 377/6 and see with their own eyes.

 

[Anchorman_02]

It wasn't just about southern and within the last 20 minutes I've just got off a GTR train that did not have first class stickers on any of the windows of the first class compartment.

No judge in the land would prosecute you for it.

 

[21C101]

Yes well you get weighted salaries to pay for your tickets.

Oh really?, London weighting is a thing of the past, except for the lucky few. Plenty people down here on minimum wage, and there are also plenty of people in the north on National wage scales.

There are references to the first class compartment being just as uncomfortable as the rest of the train and nobody will be going to court because Southern are not pressing the issue.

As I said above it was not just about Southern and presumably you have proof that no one is being prosecuted? Even if they have dropped the charges some people have been put through a lot of anguish and worry.

 

[Anchorman_02]

Oh really?, London weighting is a thing of the past, except for the lucky few. Plenty people down here on minimum wage, and there are also plenty of people in the north on National wage scales.



As I said above it was not just about Southern and presumably you have proof that no one is being prosecuted? Even if they have dropped the charges some people have been put through a lot of anguish and worry.

People often suffer regret after being caught. Listen, if it's that bad, why don't you complain to the train company. A post on a rail forum warning customers to take care would be more helpful than a witch hunt. Several of you get together and go and see the Operations Manager with your evidence.

 

[yorkie]

No judge in the land would prosecute you for it.

It would be the TOC prosecuting, and they could at least threaten it, causing stress for the innocent party, even if they didn't go through with it.

 

[Bishopstone]

I think the position on Thameslink is becoming unsustainable. It isn't fair on those who have paid for FC, and it isn't fair on those who get caught in the honey traps, unawares.

Either FC needs to be supported with proper signage and enforcement, or it should be abolished. The issue is DFT would like the publicity 'win' of doing away with FC on commuter services, but they remain addicted to the revenue stream when budgets are being squeezed. So - probably through nods and winks - TOCs are asked to keep FC, but not to generate bad publicity by seeking to enforce it zealously (or at all) on busy trains.

A similar confused situation is now developing with the 377/6 and 377/7 on Southern. I declare an interest as a FC season ticket holder who uses Southern a great deal and Thameslink occasionally. I wish they'd both jump one way or the other (ie retain and enforce, or abolish) and I'd live with either decision, but I suspect that conflicting pressures mean the unsatisfactory status quo will linger.

 

[21C101]

I think the position on Thameslink is becoming unsustainable. It isn't fair on those who have paid for FC, and it isn't fair on those who get caught in the honey traps, unawares.

Either FC needs to be supported with proper signage and enforcement, or it should be abolished. The issue is DFT would like the publicity 'win' of doing away with FC on commuter services, but they remain addicted to the revenue stream when budgets are being squeezed. So - probably through nods and winks - TOCs are asked to keep FC, but not to generate bad publicity by seeking to enforce it zealously (or at all) on busy trains.

A similar confused situation is now developing with the 377/6 and 377/7 on Southern. I declare an interest as a FC season ticket holder who uses Southern a great deal and Thameslink occasionally. I wish they'd both jump one way or the other (ie retain and enforce, or abolish) and I'd live with either decision, but I suspect that conflicting pressures mean the unsatisfactory status quo will linger.

There is not a problem on Thameslink per se, there is a problem on the seven or eight sets of 377s they have.

First class on the 319s (which is most of the Thameslink trains) is very obvious (and luxurious with 2+1 seats as against 2+3 in standard) and there is rarely confusion. Oddly when the antimacassas all disappeared from the 377s after GTR took over from FCC, the paper ones did not disappear from the 319s. It is these paper ones that have this week appeared on the 377s.

The class 700s will have first class at either end with a glass partition and different seats with armrests and tables (standard get neither) so the problem will disappear from Thameslink. Southern on the other hand with their huge 377 fleet......

 

[455driver]

1st class is in an intermediate carriage on the 377/6 and 377/7s

Oops, I didnt know that!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Oh really?, London weighting is a thing of the past, except for the lucky few. Plenty people down here on minimum wage, and there are also plenty of people in the north on National wage scales.

It really depends on the company. Certainly the company I work for pays more for those based in the London office. Thought granted I don't think the difference is enough to make up for the extra costs for accommodation and travel.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No judge in the land would prosecute you for it.

Wouldn't have to considering the ToC can still threaten it and get a nice payment out of it.

 

[Fincra5]

I have been on the 6 series.. And the first class is noticeable when onboard. As I said before the stickers on the windows and mostly partition do give it away...

I dunno maybe I'm just aware of my surroundings.

 

[jon0844]

The main difference seems to be the lack of antimacassars, which are meant to be there (as you can see from the first photo) but seem to go missing with these seats.

Hopefully they've got someone trying to solve that, or design some other way of marking the first class seats.

FCC did use totally different seat coverings on the 319s, 321s, 365s and 317s but not the 377s. It does seem that these are perhaps the hardest trains to spot first class, regardless of operates them. They are of course designed to Southern's specifications.

Different seats would certainly help, although usually having a lot more legroom or perhaps 2+1 seating makes it even more obvious, as well as carpet on the floor etc.

In the case of the Thameslink 377s the antimacassas and labels all appeared to have been intentionally removed shortly after the franchise change. Presumably because they had first capital connect (or southern) written on them. New ones appeared in the last week or so.

I can't remember what train it was, but I've seen on at least one train coming back from Brighton that the antimacassars didn't have anything to attach themselves to the top of the seat (usually two holes that fit over two small poles) and relied on the sticky tape - but whoever put them on never peeled off the tape over the sticky section and had just tucked them in at the top - or tried to.

They can't have been put on a long time before, but as soon as we went through a tunnel with the windows open, loads of them blew off!

These were plain white ones with a grey circle and white '1' that had replaced the previous First Capital Connect marked ones - and they might not have been the right design/shape for the trains. FCC was still operating the trains then, but had presumably been working ahead of time for the change not that long after.

I had a similar thread, with some photos (e.g. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1922670&postcount=9 ), showing how GTR had removed all the original first class signs and stickers and put up a single A5 sign that wasn't that clear - on a door that could be left in the open position and easily missed.

All the seats had the '1' but I am not sure that a light grey on white is that good, and if there were lots of people sitting and blocking them then it's hardly sufficient to rely solely on these to tell people.

I assume things have improved now, and I've spotted a few trains where they've got stickers on windows and the main doors.

Funniest thing was seeing a refreshed 365 (having FIRST & CLASS written on each door in white text on a light blue band/ribbon) where FIRST was missing. I never twigged at the time that someone had obviously removed the left hand sticker because they'd been told to remove anything saying 'First'.

 

[causton]

Funniest thing was seeing a refreshed 365 (having FIRST & CLASS written on each door in white text on a light blue band/ribbon) where FIRST was missing. I never twigged at the time that someone had obviously removed the left hand sticker because they'd been told to remove anything saying 'First'.

Don't know if anyone's told them that all the London Connections maps still say First Capital Connect in the map key