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Unacceptable TOC behaviour: First Class, or not First Class

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Anchorman_02

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I think I'm quite customer focused and really want the railway to succeed and improve but if this is all the OP has to worry about to the level of "outrageous and shocking" then there isn't a lot going on in there.

Let them know what you think but fgs, get over it!
 
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andyb2706

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I've not gone through every post but I don't know about you complaining to passenger Focus but if I was a First Class paying customer I would be complaining to Passenger Focus with the big differential of prices from a first to standard ticket.

Can anyone tell me the difference between the standard and first class on this train? Apart from the first class stickers.
 

All Line Rover

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My concern is about innocent passengers being prosecuted, and what is outrageous is that this could occur because of a TOCs own failing to accurately demarcate First Class; a problem which cannot have escaped its attention after so many years.

I'm still non the wiser as to whether I was sitting in First Class or not. What good are First Class stickers if, quite aside from being laughably small, they are 'part-time' stickers!?
 

Anchorman_02

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My concern is about innocent passengers being prosecuted, and what is outrageous is that this could occur because of a TOCs own failing to accurately demarcate First Class; a problem which cannot have escaped its attention after so many years.

I'm still non the wiser as to whether I was sitting in First Class or not. What good are First Class stickers if, quite aside from being laughably small, they are 'part-time' stickers!?

Well tell them what you think but your terminology is OTT. It's a concern but it's not exactly life threatening. £500 for a ticket is outrageous and a drunk with a knife is shocking but inadequate stickers are inconvenient. I'm sure revenue collectors can be convinced of an innocent mistake if the stickers are that bad unless it's somebody they see in there every day.
 

yorkie

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I think I'm quite customer focused and really want the railway to succeed and improve but if this is all the OP has to worry about to the level of "outrageous and shocking" then there isn't a lot going on in there.

Let them know what you think but fgs, get over it!
Why should people not care about the fact that people are tricked into sitting in this seating and then asked to either pay a £20 Penalty Fare or even be prosecuted!?

If the railway didn't charge Penalty Fares for this, and didn't threaten prosecution for this, then I'd entirely agree the rant was unnecessary.

But given how passengers have been, are being, and no doubt will continue to be, treated by various Train Companies in these circumstances, why shouldn't we be angry at that treatment?!

Of the people who think the rant is unjustified, several of you appear to be Guards. Perhaps that's because on your trains 1st is clearly marked, and if it wasn't you'd obviously not be threatening a PF or prosecution and would apologetically and politely explain it's 1st class, and simply move standard passengers on. The trains in question do not have Guards, and instead have the occasional visit by a RPI who might be polite about it or on the other hand might be rather threatening. And that's not acceptable.
 

Anchorman_02

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Why should people not care about the fact that people are tricked into sitting in this seating and then asked to either pay a £20 Penalty Fare or even be prosecuted!?

If the railway didn't charge Penalty Fares for this, and didn't threaten prosecution for this, then I'd entirely agree the rant was unnecessary.

But given how passengers have been, are being, and no doubt will continue to be, treated by various Train Companies in these circumstances, why shouldn't we be angry at that treatment?!

Of the people who think the rant is unjustified, several of you appear to be Guards. Perhaps that's because on your trains 1st is clearly marked, and if it wasn't you'd obviously not be threatening a PF or prosecution and would apologetically and politely explain it's 1st class, and simply move standard passengers on. The trains in question do not have Guards, and instead have the occasional visit by a RPI who might be polite about it or on the other hand might be rather threatening. And that's not acceptable.
Well look, I'm not saying it's right but I think the wording is OTT. I also think that your suggestion that the stickers are designed to trick people are equally OTT. Do you think TOCS are out to trick people? Lighten up.
 

All Line Rover

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Well look, I'm not saying it's right but I think the wording is OTT.

Satisfied with the semantics of my edited post?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Do you think TOCS are out to trick people? Lighten up.

TOCs may not be out to trick people, but where they are aware of a problem as serious as this, they should fix it. Sufficient signage does not require a multi-million pound investment, nor does programming the on-board PIS to indicate when First Class is declassified.
 

WelshBluebird

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Do you think TOCS are out to trick people? Lighten up.

Because the suggestion that a private company that is mainly run for the benefits of its shareholders could possible try to trick customers into paying more is so out there?
 

physics34

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The anti maccassas and 1st class stickers were originally for when the 377/5s were new and they ran on East Grinsteads for a while.

1st class is disclassified on metro services, but im not sure about the Brighton Expresses on a saturday that they operate.
 

21C101

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Well tell them what you think but your terminology is OTT. It's a concern but it's not exactly life threatening. £500 for a ticket is outrageous and a drunk with a knife is shocking but inadequate stickers are inconvenient. I'm sure revenue collectors can be convinced of an innocent mistake if the stickers are that bad unless it's somebody they see in there every day.

Maybe if you had been penalty fared for sitting in a first class compartment with identical seats to standard class, with no stickers or antimacassas inside it and just apple sized stickers facing out on the glass partition (with people stood in front of them), and told by an RPI with a CCTV camera on his lapel recording everying you say and do that the because the PIS display at the station where you got on said that first class was at the front that is not an acceptable excuse, you might feel differently?


Frankly GTR is lucky not to have ended up on BBC Watchdog or similar, or up before the magistrates on a trading standards/demanding money with menaces charge; and they appear (rightly) now to have told RPIs not to charge penalty fares or prosecute, just admit that the notices are inadequate and ask people to move out of 1st class (or let them stay if they are getting off at the next stop).
 
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Anchorman_02

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Maybe if you had been penalty fared for sitting in a first class compartment with identical seats to standard class, with no stickers or antimacassas inside it and just apple sized stickers facing out on the glass partition (with people stood in front of them), and told by an RPI with a CCTV camera on his lapel recording everying you say and do that the because the PIS display at the station where you got on said that first class was at the front that is not an acceptable excuse, you might feel differently?


Frankly GTR is lucky not to have ended up on BBC Watchdog or similar, or up before the magistrates on a trading standards/demanding money with menaces charge; and they appear (rightly) now to have told RPIs not to charge penalty fares or prosecute, just admit that the notices are inadequate and ask people to move out of 1st class (or let them stay if they are getting off at the next stop).
Yada, yada, yada. By your own admission it's fixed now if they've been told not to charge penalty fairs. If I'd been charged £20 when they were doing it I'd have pulled together the pictures at the beginning of this thread and complained. No joy? Take it to watchdog. Oh but wait, it's been sorted out now and there isn't even a valid complaint. I'll tell you what else I'd have done. I'd have made very sure I didn't sit in a seat where I could see stickers of any kind on the window without asking first. It might look similar to standard but if the train is packed and that part isn't - come on. I wish I'd got so little to worry about and I consider myself reasonably content. Outrageous shock case closed.
 

47802

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The OP is right to be angry Southern 1st on the 377's is a complete P*** take.


1st and Standard needs to be clearly indicated and differentiated to avoid confusion, there need to be some differences between Standard and 1st otherwise its just taking the P*** out of 1st class passengers.

Either Southern have to keep first and standard class only fleets separate, or they get rid of 1st all together or have all routes with 1st.
 

yorkie

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... I wish I'd got so little to worry about ...
No-one is making you read this thread.

And some people do worry a great deal about confrontations on trains and can't help that fact. Not everyone is as eloquent, confident and assertive as you are in such situations.

One forum member was detained for over 3 hours due to a revenue inspection officer incorrectly deciding his ticket wasn't valid, I know another was detained by police incorrectly at York station (the member of staff who caused that was later advised not to waste police time) and also prevented from leaving a train. The other day a young person was detained at a rural station against the policies of that TOC. Another forum member had his entire wallet seized by Southern because the RPI thinks that Northern Rail issued tickets in the new style are "forgeries" (I don't know if he has got it back yet!). The same person was almost stranded at Perth as a teenager without any means to get home, because it was thought he had "hacked" a booking engine as they did not believe the itinerary.

Such acts may not worry you because you'd know how to handle them, but they are a real worry to some people.
 

DaveNewcastle

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My concern is about innocent passengers being prosecuted, . . . .
which innocent passengers have been prosecuted following this demarcation of the accomodation, and when?

Or is this just a fantasy scandal?
. . . . One forum member was detained for over 3 hours due to a revenue inspection officer incorrectly deciding his ticket wasn't valid, . . . .

. . . . I know another was detained by police incorrectly at York station . . . .

. . . . The other day a young person was detained at a rural station against the policies of that TOC. . . .

. . . . Another forum member had his entire wallet seized by Southern . . . .
How do these four incidents have any bearing on the thousands of passengers travelling in first class with the Company refered to in this thread, Southern, and travelling without incident ?
We both know that Southern trains don't go anywhere near York, so why more hyperbole?

I agree that the OP's comments are quite disproportionate to the facts (or as Anchorman 02 has put it, OTT).
 
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Tetchytyke

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Bletchleyite

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All trains on the West London Line carry first class accommodation throughout.

The PIS seems to disagree, stating after Watford that "Southern Metro services do not have First Class". Yes, that is just a statement of fact, but if it didn't apply to that train it would be more than a little misleading.

Neil
 

Deepgreen

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The situation is a farce - I catch the 0831 Redhill to Victoria some mornings, which originates from Horsham. It is usually a 377/7. The first class even within this small sub-class varies hugely - at least one unit (377704) has no first class labeling at all, and others have varying amounts labeled. The actual labels are positioned on the windows such that they are almost hidden by the seating, and the headrest cotton covers that are supposed to be applied when operating in first class mode are almost always missing (and are pathetic little bibs that fall off anyway). Passengers clearly have no idea what to make of it, and the conductors I have spoken to think it's a shambles. The 377/7s have different first class layouts to the 377/6s, which are both different again to the rest of the 377s (some of which have glass doors and some don't).
The whole thing smacks of very poor stock design planning at the very least, and has resulted in a situation where no-one benefits - first class ticket holders who pay extra are invaded by unsuspecting or uncaring standard class ticket holders (the latter knowing they are very unlikely to be challenged and who probably think a £20 fine once or twice a year is very good value for first class travel!), while genuinely-mistaken passengers risk fines. The use of identical seating in both classes leads to further confusion (especially with Gatwick passengers) and, of course, the seating in the 377/6s and 7s is so poor that most people don't regard it as adequate for standard class, let alone first! Connex did attempt to abolish first with the original specifications for the fleet, but were forced to abandon that by vociferous commuters, and Southern have had opportunities to rectify the situation since (not least with the refurbishment programme) but have failed to do so.
 
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DarloRich

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The thing I like best about this faux outrage, which could almost be a superb parody, is the fact that each picture presented as evidence for the prosecution INCLUDES SOME FORM OF FIRST CLASS DEMARKATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What do you want? a flashing neon sign with rotating beacon and a loud voice saying "WARNING FIRST CLASS"

:roll:
 

Wolfie

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The thing I like best about this faux outrage, which could almost be a superb parody, is the fact that each picture presented as evidence for the prosecution INCLUDES SOME FORM OF FIRST CLASS DEMARKATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What do you want? a flashing neon sign with rotating beacon and a loud voice saying "WARNING FIRST CLASS"

:roll:

I think the problem comes down to the quality, adequacy and consistency of such markings....
 

Bletchleyite

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My personal view is that First Class which is completely identical to Standard is a joke and such sets should be Standard only. But at the very least the seat covers should be obviously different, or some such, with prominent 1s on the windows, both sides of every entrance door and on any door/partition you have to go through to access it. And ideally a yellow cantrail stripe.

Antimacassars are another usual way of doing it - indeed in the days of the 8-car Pendolinos VT used to indicate the semi-permanent declassification of Coach G by removing these.

Neil
 
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21C101

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This thread seems to be heading for do not feed status.

Wherefore best practice customer service
 

alastair

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It is ironic,isnt it ,that the on the one Southern train that does have "proper" first class(with 2 and 1 seats),the Marshlink diesel units,first class is declassified(and has been for some years)apparently due to overcrowding problems!
 

DarloRich

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Not on the GTR 377s there aint.

I don’t use them ( ;) ) but in the picture supplied by the OP first class branding is visible in every shot.

As for the FFC/GTR trains CLEARLY there should be some form of demarcation branding for the first class areas or a blanket withdrawal of such facilities. I would doubt any penalty issued in such circumstances would stand up to scrutiny once you provided evidence to show there were no markings on the train.
 

21C101

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I don’t use them ( ;) ) but in the picture supplied by the OP first class branding is visible in every shot.

As for the FFC/GTR trains CLEARLY there should be some form of demarcation branding for the first class areas or a blanket withdrawal of such facilities. I would doubt any penalty issued in such circumstances would stand up to scrutiny once you provided evidence to show there were no markings on the train.

Indeed but not all pax have a smartphone to phot the inside of a train or the confidence to appeal. They will just avoid using the train wherever possible - noting that most of the victims appear to be irregular travellers on discretionary journies.

It seems not to register in some quarters that the passengers are the people who pay their wages.
 

455driver

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Either Southern have to keep first and standard class only fleets separate, or they get rid of 1st all together or have all routes with 1st.

Which other South London TOC has all routes with 1st class then?

TBH if you are so worried about accidentally sitting in a (admittedly poorly advertised) 1st class seat then dont sit in the bit between the cab and first set of passenger doors, and when you do sit down have a look around to see if there are any stickers/labels/antimacassars etc indicating anything!
If you get on a train and there are lots of people standing but there are seats available in this area then that might just be a bit of a clue.
 

Minilad

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Indeed but not all pax have a smartphone to phot the inside of a train or the confidence to appeal. They will just avoid using the train wherever possible - noting that most of the victims appear to be irregular travellers on discretionary journies.

It seems not to register in some quarters that the passengers are the people who pay their wages.

BINGO. End thread
 

455driver

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It seems not to register in some quarters that the passengers are the people who pay their wages.

And there we go again! :roll:

Can you tell me 5 jobs where the customers 'dont' pay for the staffs wages please?
 
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