Unacceptable TOC behaviour: First Class, or not First Class

[All Line Rover]

...that is the question.

I was surprised to discover how poorly labelled First Class accommodation is on Southern's class 377/6 units. They have the odd design of having a dividing door wedged in the middle of the carriage, and although the seating before the door is clearly Standard Class, is the seating after the door Standard Class? There are no labels on the door indicating that one is entering First Class. Nor, unlike at the very front of the train, are there any antimacassars on the seats, indicating that they are First Class seats. But there are very small First Class stickers on the windows! So is this seating First Class or not?

I myself have no idea, and have never seen such an unacceptable example of a lack of information provided by a TOC. This is an important issue, not because it might annoy First Class ticket holders, but because if it is First Class, there is a very, very high risk that Standard Class holders will sit there accidentally. I boarded the train through the first set of doors, noticed the usual First Class seating on the left with the antimacassars on the seats, and naturally sat in the seating on the right which had no antimacassars, and which on every other 377 train is clearly Standard Class. I didn't notice the stickers on the windows until around 10 minutes later, and when I did I was annoyed that I may have been 'tricked' into sitting in First Class.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Wow. First Class on a train that is actually WORSE than that found on a Turbo? Never knew such a thing existed!

They look just like Standard class, but with a door enclosure? What a waste of time, effort and money. No way would I pay extra for the exact same and level of comfort I can get for cheaper!

 

[westcoaster]

Are these not declassified on southern metro routes.

 

[Drsatan]

Are these not declassified on southern metro routes.

If they are, some RPIs might ignore that if you opt to sit in first, unfortunately...
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(All this is apart from the fact that I don't understand why Southern even has First Class)

I believe that is a franchise requirement. I understand Transpennine has the same issue whereby first class must be provided even on services which are frequently crush-loaded

 

[fgwrich]

To be fair this is an issue which has been known about for a while, and while most of them are I'm led to believe declassified on Metro duties I think very few people have become as offended by it as you appear to be - partly because of their Metro use and partly because the first class provision on Southern and most of Govia's franchises has always been rather poor!

 

[tsr]

If they are, some RPIs might ignore that if you opt to sit in first, unfortunately...

They most certainly shouldn't - it is displayed on many CIS systems (on stations/onboard) and I believe online, and regularly accepted by local guards, so I see no reason why RPIs should behave any differently (and I've never spoken to one who has). The policy is hardly willingly hidden away.

To be fair this is an issue which has been known about for a while, and while most of them are I'm led to believe declassified on Metro duties I think very few people have become as offended by it as you appear to be - partly because of their Metro use and partly because the first class provision on Southern and most of Govia's franchises has always been rather poor!

Some of these trains are also liable to be used to/from Brighton and Horsham via Gatwick, where First Class is enforced, and thus I agree with the OP that it should be better marked (and also clearly declassified when not enforced).

 

[Bald Rick]

You should see first class on the 377/2s that Thameslink run. No segregating door, same seats, no antimacassars. The only indication that it is first is a handful of stickers, some are A5 size, and some are about the diameter of an apple. None can be seen before entering the compartment if the vestibule has standees. The designation from outside is practically invisible, except for the Southern liveried units which have the yellow stripe - which in some cases is declassified. It is much the same on the 377/5s, except there is a segregating door.

It is frankly ridiculous. It would appear that the RPIs agree, as they seem to have given up enforcing first on peak trains formed of this stock (and they'd have a right argument on their hands if they did) Haven't seen any for 2 months.

 

[21C101]

You should see first class on the 377/2s that Thameslink run. No segregating door, same seats, no antimacassars. The only indication that it is first is a handful of stickers, some are A5 size, and some are about the diameter of an apple. None can be seen before entering the compartment if the vestibule has standees. The designation from outside is practically invisible, except for the Southern liveried units which have the yellow stripe - which in some cases is declassified. It is much the same on the 377/5s, except there is a segregating door.

It is frankly ridiculous. It would appear that the RPIs agree, as they seem to have given up enforcing first on peak trains formed of this stock (and they'd have a right argument on their hands if they did) Haven't seen any for 2 months.

They seem to have made a return in the last week or two but now apologetically explain to pax that it is actually first class and gently move them on.

The ones with CCTV cameras on their labels who went round rigorously penalty faring or pre prosecutioning cautioning anyone they found in first class with a standard class ticket have disappeared altogether though.

----------------

On the subject, I remember reading years ago about a person travelling in first class in an inner suburban train on a standard class only service that it is not possible to buy a first class ticket for.

An RPI came round and demanded a £20 penalty fare off everyone in first class. Most paid. One didn't. After a "conversation" the RPI informed him that he would have the police waiting at the next stop (the London Terminal), he basically said OK then.

Get to London. Police board, ask him for his ticket. He readily and politely co-operates, and produces a two week, first class all line rover ticket and then informs the policeman that at no time did the RPI ask for his ticket, he just demanded £20...........

 

[DarloRich]

WOW first world problems right there! EDIT - no need to be grumpy, but really.........

It is a franchise commitment by Southern to provide FC seating but it is declassified on a great number of Southern services. For instance it is declassified on the Milton Keynes trains i think as far as Watford and rarely enforced thereafter.

 

[21C101]

WOW first world problems right there! EDIT - no need to be grumpy, but really.........

It is a franchise commitment by Southern to provide FC seating but it is declassified on a great number of Southern services. For instance it is declassified on the Milton Keynes trains i think as far as Watford and rarely enforced thereafter.

Its not funny though if you unrealisingly sit in there, in identical seats to Standard Class, with no antimacassas and hardly any labels in the compartment and end up with a penalty fare, caution of prosecution or police arranged to meet you at the next stop when you get off with RPI escorting you off, all of which I have seen on Thameslink route 377s over recent months.

 

[AmeralGunson]

Some of us commuters - not me now - brought this up with Southern management at one of their meet the managers evenings. He told us it was because the previous operators (Connex - even worse timekeeping than FGW) had ordered the trains as second class only.

 

[DarloRich]

Its not funny though if you unrealisingly sit in there, in identical seats to Standard Class, with no antimacassas and hardly any labels in the compartment and end up with a penalty fare, caution of prosecution or police arranged to meet you at the next stop when you get off with RPI escorting you off, all of which I have seen on Thameslink route 377s over recent months.

there are stickers on the doors and windows.

Milton Keynes by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

 

[21C101]

there are stickers on the doors and windows.

Milton Keynes by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

Not on the Thameslinks there ain't. One incident I saw had no stickers inside the compartment at all, just a couple facing out on the glass barrier (with people standing in front of them), and more on the door to the compartment which was stuck open so also behind the standing people. No antimaccassas either, they all disappeared when FCC went and have only reappeared in the last week or so.

Hence the RPIs are now treading very carefully.

I watched more than one very upset passenger photograph the stickerless and antimacassaless inside of the unit to take away as evidence for a complaint/appeal and in one case someone knowledgeable in the compartment quietly advised them to make sure they photoed the unit serial number by the drivers door once the RPI had gone.

 

[crehld]

the 377/6 had the odd design of having a dividing door wedged in the middle of the carriage, as shown in the second photo. The seating before the door is clearly Standard Class, but is the seating after the door Standard Class? There are no labels on the door indicating that one is entering First Class. Nor, unlike at the very front of the train, are there any antimacassars on the seats, indicating that they are First Class seats. But there are very small First Class stickers on the windows! These stickers are visible in the third and (just about) fourth photos. So is this seating First Class or not?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who fell for this. Was on the Southern service from Clapham Junction to Milton Keynes on Monday and also sat down unwittingly in first class until the relative quiet and a grumpy man pointed out where I was. Again same seating as standard (not even a difference in leg room) and nothing other than a tiny notice to inform you you're in first class.

Some of us commuters - not me now - brought this up with Southern management at one of their meet the managers evenings. He told us it was because the previous operators (Connex - even worse timekeeping than FGW) had ordered the trains as second class only.

But Southern ordered the 377/6s, so how can they blame Connex? Or am I missing something?

 

[21C101]

Some of us commuters - not me now - brought this up with Southern management at one of their meet the managers evenings. He told us it was because the previous operators (Connex - even worse timekeeping than FGW) had ordered the trains as second class only.

The odd thing is that the middle two carriages are effectively third class with 2+3 seating. The end carriages have identical 2+2 seats with armrests in both first and standard class.

I find that excuse hard to fathom as the ex FCC 377s were only built two or three years ago. I think its more likely that someone had the bright idea of making two out of four carriages first class to try and increase revenue, and the idea was subsequently kicked into touch.

And how on earth did such a narrow walkway between the 2+3s get through a safety case?

 

[thelem]

The main difference seems to be the lack of antimacassars, which are meant to be there (as you can see from the first photo) but seem to go missing with these seats.

Hopefully they've got someone trying to solve that, or design some other way of marking the first class seats.

 

[crehld]

there are stickers on the doors and windows.

Milton Keynes by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

Hardly good enough in my opinion. The example I sat inadvertently in on Monday had the labels in the top corner of the window so were even more obscure. It would be much clearer if, like most other first class compartments, a different seat colour / upholstery design was used, or at the very least antimacassars; clear labelling on the outside of the train so I know it's the first class compartment when I board; and dare I say something like improved legroom or larger seats to at least give the impression I'm getting an enhanced service for my money.

 

[thelem]

Again same seating as standard (not even a difference in leg room)

I think there is actually slightly more leg room, because one of the rows of two seats is replaced with a single seat facing the centre of the carriage.

 

[DarloRich]

Not on the Thameslinks there ain't.

fail :roll:

Hardly good enough in my opinion. The example I sat inadvertently in on Monday had the labels in the top corner of the window so were even more obscure. It would be much clearer if, like most other first class compartments, a different seat colour / upholstery design was used, or at the very least antimacassars; clear labelling on the outside of the train so I know it's the first class compartment when I board; and dare I say something like improved legroom or larger seats to at least give the impression I'm getting an enhanced service for my money.

it is a big sticker in the middle of the window and there are (sometimes) antimacassars, poor as they are, in the first class section of the southern trains. I guess they get pinched.

it still isnt worth the OP's vast outpouring of wibble though!

Milton Keynes by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

 

[crehld]

It is a franchise commitment by Southern to provide FC seating but it is declassified on a great number of Southern services. For instance it is declassified on the Milton Keynes trains i think as far as Watford and rarely enforced thereafter.

If this was the case the declassification was not made clear, and the one passenger in the first class compartment took great pleasure in pointing out I was in his own personal first class zone! How dare me!

I think there is actually slightly more leg room, because one of the rows of two seats is replaced with a single seat facing the centre of the carriage.

I didn't notice any difference, but I didn't bring my tape measure with me. If there was a difference it would have been nominal at best.

Besides I was happy with the standard offer and my main concern at that point was coming across an unsympathetic RPI! I rarely travel first class but if I was I'd expect something more than a sticker on the window for my premium!
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fail :roll:



it is a big sticker in the middle of the window and there are (sometimes) antimacassars, poor as they are, in the first class section of the southern trains. I guess they get pinched.

it still isnt worth the OP's vast outpouring of wibble though!

Milton Keynes by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

I can appreciate they get pinched... certainly weren't any around on Monday! Only reinforces the need for something more substantial. Perhaps next time I'll place a newspaper over the top of the next standard class seat I'm sat in. I'll at least get the impression I've travelling first!

 

[DarloRich]

If this was the case the declassification was not made clear, and the one passenger in the first class compartment took great pleasure in pointing out I was in his own personal first class zone! How dare me!

They dont tell people it is declassified. That would be to easy

I can appreciate they get pinched... certainly weren't any around on Monday! Only reinforces the need for something more substantial. Perhaps next time I'll place a newspaper over the top of the next standard class seat I'm sat in. I'll at least get the impression I've travelling first!

They should have gone for an arrangement like the priority seat shown in my last picture - very simple, clear and nothing to pinch! Costs money mind

 

[21C101]

In the case of the Thameslink 377s the antimacassas and labels all appeared to have been intentionally removed shortly after the franchise change. Presumably because they had first capital connect (or southern) written on them. New ones appeared in the last week or so.

 

[crehld]

They should have gone for an arrangement like the priority seat shown in my last picture - very simple, clear and nothing to pinch! Costs money mind

Completely agree! But if they're willing to shell out a little extra cash for different upholstery for the odd priority seat I can't see how this would be a barrier for doing the same in first class.

 

[DarloRich]

Completely agree! But if they're willing to shell out a little extra cash for different upholstery for the odd priority seat I can't see how this would be a barrier for doing the same in first class.

they might have got a grant

 

[thelongestroad]

Goodness me, how absolutely disgusting and absurd. Someone, call Metro's infuriated rail passengers newsdesk.

 

[Fincra5]

The series (ignoring weekends) mainly run on the metro area, where 1st Class is Declassified, noted mainly on the PIS... Infact they weren't supposed to branch out too far from it. But with peak services some have branched further afield. The seating is the same, correct, the only Southern fleet on which it isn't is the Gatex 442s. Oh and a slight difference with the 4 series (thinner armrests and plugs).

The stickers on the window should be enough for indicate its First Class (Which is only on use on NON metro services), and on the Doors.

At the end of the day even when there are partition doors (oh well if there isn't) people still say they didn't notice its 1st Class with the Head Rests, Window Stickers and Door/ Vestibule Partition stickers.

1st Class on Commuter Lines IMO is pointless but it has a business case.

 

[Kite159]

The only difference between standard class seating & first class seating on the 377s (1 to 5) is that the first class area has power sockets. The FC area should be kept to that small area behind the cab. Some of the 377s don't even have a dividing door between the FC area & standard. I think looking at a timetable at Ford earlier in the year when on a Southern day that half the services had 1st class (mainly Southampton), half didn't (mainly Portsmouth) How confusing can that be for passengers, when a 377 tips up.

At least the other main Southern units with 1st class (the 171s) you can tell it's first class due to the 2+1 seating (which is the same as the 442s?)

 

[fgwrich]

The series (ignoring weekends) mainly run on the metro area, where 1st Class is Declassified, noted mainly on the PIS... Infact they weren't supposed to branch out too far from it. But with peak services some have branched further afield. The seating is the same, correct, the only Southern fleet on which it isn't is the Gatex 442s. Oh and a slight difference with the 4 series (thinner armrests and plugs).

The stickers on the window should be enough for indicate its First Class (Which is only on use on NON metro services), and on the Doors.

At the end of the day even when there are partition doors (oh well if there isn't) people still say they didn't notice its 1st Class with the Head Rests, Window Stickers and Door/ Vestibule Partition stickers.

1st Class on Commuter Lines IMO is pointless but it has a business case.

Very much agreed. Is it worth changing the title of the thread because I'm seeing little that's outrageous behaviour by Southern. Poorly marked maybe, but outrageous?

 

[FOH]

They dont tell people it is declassified. That would be to easy

As noted by another poster it is on the PIS. Regularly says something like "there is no first class on Southern Metro services in the London area. You may sit in any part of this train"

 

[Scotrail84]

Is this thread a wind up? Seriously, that's some rant about first class.