UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[E27007]

In fact it’s even more broad than just selling PHEVs. Improving the fuel efficiency of existing cars can get you extra credits/points. Quoting from the New Automotive article linked to below:



There is further detail in the article including worked examples.

Catch-22%: How carmakers can meet UK EV targets without selling more EVs

New briefing shows how carmakers can meet the UK's EV sales targets without having to sell more electric cars

newautomotive.substack.com

If I had a pound for every time I’ve seen people online quote the mandate figure assuming it was an absolute figure manufacturers had to reach I’d be a very rich person.

Thank you for the clarification, a PHEV sale is a count towards the ZEV mandate target, is it correct to state each battery non-IC ZEV counts as a 1 percent point, and a PHEV counts as a fraction of percent point, what is the ratio? The worked example of Stellamotors does not show how a 9gm /4.7% reduction in emissions is converted to 4419 points "ZEV2 points.
How many PHEV's to accumulate the same point as a pure battery ZEV?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If I was in the position of the European automotive industry, I am not sure I would be lobbying to give Chinese competitors another 10 years of head start…

Plenty of the vehicles I see on the road from the Chinese newcomers are the ICE or hybrid versions. Particularly those hideous Jaecoo knock-off Range Rover things.

 

[Snow1964]

Plenty of the vehicles I see on the road from the Chinese newcomers are the ICE or hybrid versions. Particularly those hideous Jaecoo knock-off Range Rover things.

Those Jaecoo hybrids are more range extender electric, something that was available on the discontinued BMW i3.

To some extent plug in hybrids are only bought because of company car tax breaks, but in practice have extra complications (and with it lower reliability), still need to service engine etc, so in a way are worst of both worlds.

Whilst people might currently be attracted to offers on them, it is likely they will suffer like expensive to fix executive cars when they get to an age where parts need replacing. My gut feeling is Chinese are doing ok because European manufacturers are not offering what consumers want (eg Fords silly decision to drop Fiesta, Focus, Ka etc, basically their go elsewhere if don't want big over spec's car approach)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Those Jaecoo hybrids are more range extender electric, something that was available on the discontinued BMW i3.

To some extent plug in hybrids are only bought because of company car tax breaks, but in practice have extra complications (and with it lower reliability), still need to service engine etc, so in a way are worst of both worlds.

Whilst people might currently be attracted to offers on them, it is likely they will suffer like expensive to fix executive cars when they get to an age where parts need replacing. My gut feeling is Chinese are doing ok because European manufacturers are not offering what consumers want (eg Fords silly decision to drop Fiesta, Focus, Ka etc, basically their go elsewhere if don't want big over spec's car approach)

I think the new Chinese brands will be a mixed bag- when looking round new car dealership's a few months back with a relative, the quality of BYDs surprised me... but from what I hear the build quality of the Jaecoos leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[cactustwirly]

I don't think any targets or deadlines are going to matter because more and more people are buying EVs, and unlikely to return to ICE afterwards. EVs are getting ever cheaper, with more and more second hand bargains, and ranges will increase with new battery technology.

I'm not sure if and when we'll get to where Norway is, but we don't need a deadline to get people to transition which is gaining all the time. As more people get EVs and more people experience them, they'll want one too.

I'm not talking about custom build cars or other performance models, but mainstream vehicles.

Only for a company car where they make sense because of the low BIK

With road pricing and Tax on EVs, long payback costs and higher running costs they do not make an attractive offering to most private buyers

Carwow recently did a ICE, PHEV and EV comparison, ICE was the cheapest to buy and cheapest to run. The EV had a 7 year payback period because of the higher purchase cost

If everyone was buying EVs then there would be no need to push back the deadline

 

[Trainman40083]

I suspect that many people will decide they don't really need a car at all. When I look round my area, many cars hardly move all week. For some they will opt for inner city living, where there may be no car parking. Others will use public transport. Others will probably have all their purchases brought to them.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I suspect that many people will decide they don't really need a car at all. When I look round my area, many cars hardly move all week. For some they will opt for inner city living, where there may be no car parking. Others will use public transport. Others will probably have all their purchases brought to them.

I agree. I go for long periods without a car (months / years). Made easier because I live in London. I use busses and trains and hire a van for the annual camping trip. Coach to relatives in Cardiff as coach fares so cheap and I dread the long drag own the M4.

But despite now having an over 60s Oyster I have bought a second hand Honda CRV. Yes I noticed the cost of insurance and road tax but I have been straight out benefiting from its use on trips where public transport does not work. In London that is moving larger objects and then also outer London trips. When the car dies I will procrastinate getting a replacement until I get desperate !.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect that many people will decide they don't really need a car at all. When I look round my area, many cars hardly move all week. For some they will opt for inner city living, where there may be no car parking. Others will use public transport. Others will probably have all their purchases brought to them.

Young city dwellers increasingly are, but families won't.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Young city dwellers increasingly are, but families won't.

Indeed, add to that us oldies who are noticing the joints wearing out having walked a lot.

 

[Trainman40083]

Indeed, add to that us oldies who are noticing the joints wearing out having walked a lot.

Where I am, more people do appear to be walking... Even old ladies with walking aids....and they walk where the bus goes.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Where I am, more people do appear to be walking... Even old ladies with walking aids....and they walk where the bus goes.

I think there is a change. Especially perhaps amongst those not able/willing to afford an EV (like me). It is a pity so many places (shops) have relocated to out of town areas that favour the car user. As I have said before I would prefer car usage to be minimised rather than just converted to EV.

My local junior school. You see them sitting there engine ticking over parked both sides of the road making it too narrow for bi directional travel. They even end up on the zebra crossing and school zig zag lines. The actual crossing is the place some pause to pick up (I have once ended up impeded when trying to cross the road on the crossing) !. Most of these problems will endure if EVs are seen as a solution.

 

[jon0844]

People almost certainly have less disposable income nowadays, given higher rents and bills, so a car is quite a luxury even if the cost of owning and running a car is less.

Besides the kids who still want to street race and go to car cruises, a lot of people probably don't see cars in the same way as we did in the 80s and 90s. Not everyone has to buy a hot hatch, or a basic car they do up with kit from Halfords to appear in the next issue of Max Power, and so there's no feeling that you need a car because it's just the thing you have to do when you get to 17.. and how I expect every single American kid has to do because otherwise they simply can't get around.

 

[Trainman40083]

I think there is a change. Especially perhaps amongst those not able/willing to afford an EV (like me). It is a pity so many places (shops) have relocated to out of town areas that favour the car user. As I have said before I would prefer car usage to be minimised rather than just converted to EV.

My local junior school. You see them sitting there engine ticking over parked both sides of the road making it too narrow for bi directional travel. They even end up on the zebra crossing and school zig zag lines. The actual crossing is the place some pause to pick up (I have once ended up impeded when trying to cross the road on the crossing) !. Most of these problems will endure if EVs are seen as a solution.

Inner City living, maybe more offices in City Centres creates a hub and spoke, where cars are not needed so much. Effectively because much of the demand is in the City centre, the shops meet it there. I could see a time when many people fell out with internet shopping. Yes it is easy...but only if you get exactly what you hoped, in good condition and actually received it your house

 

[Energy]

Besides the kids who still want to street race and go to car cruises, a lot of people probably don't see cars in the same way as we did in the 80s and 90s. Not everyone has to buy a hot hatch, or a basic car they do up with kit from Halfords to appear in the next issue of Max Power, and so there's no feeling that you need a car because it's just the thing you have to do when you get to 17.. and how I expect every single American kid has to do because otherwise they simply can't get around.

Many more are also going to university, where the car mostly sits around.

 

[Noddy]

what I hear the build quality of the Jaecoos leaves a lot to be desired.

Sounds a lot like Range Rover then!


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higher running costs

Why do you think they have higher running costs?

Carwow recently did a ICE, PHEV and EV comparison, ICE was the cheapest to buy and cheapest to run. The EV had a 7 year payback period because of the higher purchase cost

Do you have a link to that?

 

[mike57]

Carwow recently did a ICE, PHEV and EV comparison, ICE was the cheapest to buy and cheapest to run. The EV had a 7 year payback period because of the higher purchase cost

We recently bought a new small car. We went for simple ICE, because anything else comes at a cost penalty with no benefit to us. We did downsize as we dont do long journeys by car.

We live in a rural area and EV infrastructure is pretty much non existant. In our nearest town supermarkets have a few EV charging points, but thats pretty much it. Its also worth noting that 'public' car chargers charge considerably more than a home EV charging, frequently 2-3 times as much.

If everyone in our village had an EV with a fast home charger (22kW) then the lights would go out (Every house has at least one car, cars are not a luxury in rural areas), there is no way that the infrastructure (70s-80s vintage in a lot of cases) would support this level of demand on top of current day to day demand.

I have to say the current governments attitude, taxing EVs on one hand and trying to force people into them on the other hand is going to backfire. If the 2030 ICE ban stays we will be in a situation where people will choose to keep running older ICE cars because that is the most practical solution. People in London have already picked up on the Historic Vehicle tax class to avoid the ULEZ costs, so in 20 years will we have a lot of old cars still in use, which will probably be like 'Triggers Broom' with an aftermarket of parts and refurbs to keep these cars on the road.

 

[Bald Rick]

If everyone in our village had an EV with a fast home charger (22kW) then the lights would go out (Every house has at least one car, cars are not a luxury in rural areas), there is no way that the infrastructure (70s-80s vintage in a lot of cases) would support this level of demand on top of current day to day demand.

1) the lights wouldn’t go out
2) The infrastructure could easily manage. Average power demand for an EV household doing average miles if all charging is done at home is roughly the same as a once daily use of a tumble dryer.

 

[DelW]

My local junior school. You see them sitting there engine ticking over parked both sides of the road making it too narrow for bi directional travel. They even end up on the zebra crossing and school zig zag lines. The actual crossing is the place some pause to pick up (I have once ended up impeded when trying to cross the road on the crossing) !. Most of these problems will endure if EVs are seen as a solution.

At least EVs will eliminate that aspect - why do people sit parked at the roadside with the engine idling for long periods? I live near a primary school and see (and hear and smell) it almost every school day.

Railway related example: yesterday afternoon I went out for a walk, and to see the class 455 farewell tour on a route where 455s were unknown in service. At one location by a level crossing, there were several vans (parked on the double yellow lines at a junction) whose occupants were wearing full orange hi-viz, so presumably track-work related. In one of the vans, the driver was sitting in the cab, reading his phone, with the engine running. About half an hour later, I walked back, the driver was still on his phone, and the engine was still idling wastefully. Why? It wasn't particularly cold (10-12°), and the driver was in full PPE, so would hardly have needed the heater.

Obviously in this case he wasn't paying for the wasted fuel, but on the school runs, parents are likely to be paying for their own fuel but still see fit to idle the engine for 10 or 15 minutes on every trip. It can't be good for the engine either. I wish the parents round my way would switch to EVs and not pollute my garden with their exhaust and noise on summer afternoons!

 

[cactustwirly]

Sounds a lot like Range Rover then!


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2025 ==



Why do you think they have higher running costs?



Do you have a link to that?

Public charging is 70p KWH, equivalent to running a petrol car that does 30mpg

 

[mike57]

is done at home is roughly the same as a once daily use of a tumble dryer.

1.5 hours at 2kW for a tumble dryer, = 3kW/hr

To be fair I was specifically refering to rural locations, which is where I see the problems arising

Average EV Usage 0.3kW/hr per mile. Typical average useage for our area 10,000 miles per annum. (Nearest town 10 mile round trip, a lot commute to Scarborough or Driffield which is 30 ish mile round trip. So taking the average of 10,000miles pa which is typical for a rural area car usage that is about 9kW/hr per day. Thats additional load, on an already (locally) unreliable supply, more houses have been built, per house consumption has risen, and that has been reflected in an increasing number of outages while we have lived here (nearly 20 years).

We average 8000 miles a year, dont use the car for holidays and I work from home, long journeys are done by train.

I realise a town/city based user will/could have lower usage, more public transport, things with in walking distance, but rural car users dont have that option in most cases.

 

[Snow1964]

To be fair I was specifically refering to rural locations, which is where I see the problems arising

Average EV Usage 0.3kW/hr per mile. Typical average useage for our area 10,000 miles per annum. (Nearest town 10 mile round trip, a lot commute to Scarborough or Driffield which is 30 ish mile round trip. So taking the average of 10,000miles pa which is typical for a rural area car usage that is about 9kW/hr per day. Thats additional load, on an already (locally) unreliable supply, more houses have been built, per house consumption has risen, and that has been reflected in an increasing number of outages while we have lived here (nearly 20 years).

I would politely suggest there are few local problems with capacity of electricity supply (and generally they happen where trees pull down overhead lines).

What you might not have realised is domestic EV chargers have a data connection in the background (similar to how smart meters communicate), and when you plug in car and ask for overnight smart charge (at about 6.5-7p which is about twelfth of a rapid charger cost), it spaces it out to lower impact on grid.

If I have really run my car battery down, and opt for top up to 90% or 100% instead of default 80% then it will run at 7.4kw for 7 hours. But in most cases it only runs at 2-3kw/h at intervals during the night. It actually adjusts the charging schedule to smooth the grid load, and often starts at 00:04 or 00:07 rather than midnight.

The system is smart in the background, I have no idea how the EV companies (in my case ohme) work out the rate of charging at different hours of the night. And of course most nights it isn't plugged in. Maybe once a week, sometimes twice if we have a longer trip as well.

 

[Noddy]

If everyone in our village had an EV with a fast home charger (22kW)

A home fast charger is 7kW, you’d only get 22kW if you have a 3 phase supply which the vast majority of private residential properties in the UK don’t have. And even then most electric cars only support 11kW on AC, not 22kW.

Public charging is 70p KWH, equivalent to running a petrol car that does 30mpg

A) the majority of folk (c.60-70%) can charge at home for 7.5p, equivalent to 280+mpg.
B) those who can’t can get a subscription which can typically reduce it to around 40ish p which would be equivalent to 50ish mpg. That’s the same as any modern efficient petrol in the real world.
C) The older it gets the cheaper the EV will get to run, in comparison to the ICE. It isn’t full of mechanical parts (eg exhausts, belts, alternators, etc) that need replacing every X miles.

 

[cactustwirly]

A home fast charger is 7kW, you’d only get 22kW if you have a 3 phase supply which the vast majority of private residential properties in the UK don’t have. And even then most electric cars only support 11kW on AC, not 22kW.




A) the majority of folk (c.60-70%) can charge at home for 7.5p, equivalent to 280+mpg.
B) those who can’t can get a subscription which can typically reduce it to around 40ish p which would be equivalent to 50ish mpg. That’s the same as any modern efficient petrol in the real world.
C) The older it gets the cheaper the EV will get to run, in comparison to the ICE. It isn’t full of mechanical parts (eg exhausts, belts, alternators) that need replacing every X miles.

I was just looking at the chargers in my local Sainsbury's

I personally would need to invest thousands in charging infrastructure. Basically digging up my entire garden and driveway to lay the cables. Would have to be significantly cheaper, which I'm not convinced it is.

My last car I took to over 100k miles, and basically only changed tyres and brakes. Which EVs have, and are more likely to wear through due to their shear weight

 

[Snow1964]

I personally would need to invest thousands in charging infrastructure. Basically digging up my entire garden and driveway to lay the cables. Would have to be significantly cheaper, which I'm not convinced it is.

My last car I took to over 100k miles, and basically only changed tyres and brakes. Which EVs have, and are more likely to wear through due to their shear weight

Most people are charged around £800-1000 for a home charger installation.

For complicated routings or where garage or drive is long way from house can agree to dig a trench and put in cable duct, but obviously long cable runs will cost more.

I do not understand how you ran a car for 100,000 miles without servicing the engine, no new oil, spark plugs or filters etc. That cost doesn't exist with an EV

 

[Mawkie]

To be fair I was specifically refering to rural locations, which is where I see the problems arising

"Where I see the problems occurring" is contrary to what the National Grid have consistently stated. The grid can cope - in fact intelligent charging can ease the pressure on the grid, not add to it.

Average EV Usage 0.3kW/hr per mile. Typical average useage for our area 10,000 miles per annum. (Nearest town 10 mile round trip, a lot commute to Scarborough or Driffield which is 30 ish mile round trip. So taking the average of 10,000miles pa which is typical for a rural area car usage that is about 9kW/hr per day.

I do 9000 miles a year and have charged my car 7 times since early July - nearly 6 months. To put it another way, I would need to have an electrical outage that lasted 3 weeks to impact my charging capability. We need to get away from the myth that everyone needs to charge from 0-100% every single day.

Thats additional load, on an already (locally) unreliable supply, more houses have been built, per house consumption has risen, and that has been reflected in an increasing number of outages while we have lived here (nearly 20 years).

I had a quick look on Zapmap Electroverse and saw lots of public charging between York, Scarborough, and Driffield, with prices as low as 45p per unit. These are often on a dedicated and more resilient supply, so if someone couldn't use their own (home) supply once or twice a month, there is a back up in all but the very remotest of areas. It's been a few years since I was in the area, but I'd hazard a guess there are now more chargers than there are petrol pumps?

Of course, lots of workplaces also provide charging on-site.


(Image shows the location of public charging between York and Scarborough from the Zapmap Electroverse website.)

(Edited to correct that the map version was Electroverse and not Zapmap.)

Public charging is 70p KWH, equivalent to running a petrol car that does 30mpg

There are expensive chargers around, and also cheaper ones. I charged 2 days ago for 22p per kWh, was nice having breakfast whilst the car did its thing.

(Image show a receipt of a Tesla charging session showing 45.8 kWh added at £0.22 per kWh, total £10.08).

 

[cactustwirly]

"Where I see the problems occurring" is contrary to what the National Grid have consistently stated. The grid can cope - in fact intelligent charging can ease the pressure on the grid, not add to it.

I do 9000 miles a year and have charged my car 7 times since early July - nearly 6 months. To put it another way, I would need to have an electrical outage that lasted 3 weeks to impact my charging capability. We need to get away from the myth that everyone needs to charge from 0-100% every single day.

I had a quick look on Zapmap and saw lots of public charging between York, Scarborough, and Driffield, with prices as low as 45p per unit. These are often on a dedicated and more resilient supply, so if someone couldn't use their own (home) supply once or twice a month, there is a back up in all but the very remotest of areas. It's been a few years since I was in the area, but I'd hazard a guess there are now more chargers than there are petrol pumps?

Of course, lots of workplaces also provide charging on-site.

View attachment 194552
(Image shows the location of public charging between York and Scarborough from the Zapmap website.)

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There are expensive chargers around, and also cheaper ones. I charged 2 days ago for 22p per kWh, was nice having breakfast whilst the car did its thing.
View attachment 194554
(Image show a receipt of a Tesla charging session showing 45.8 kWh added at £0.22 per kWh, total £10.08).

How full is 45kwh?

 

[Mawkie]

How full is 45kwh?

Erm, I think it has a usable capacity of 75 kWh.

This session was probably from 20% to 80%.

Currently on 69% or 234 miles (I leave it on percentage, and have zero 'range anxiety' as the range is extremely predictable in a Tesla, not sure about other cars.)

(Image shows dual screenshots of the Tesla app indicating a 69% battery remaining figure, or 234 miles.)

 

[trebor79]

I was just looking at the chargers in my local Sainsbury's

I personally would need to invest thousands in charging infrastructure. Basically digging up my entire garden and driveway to lay the cables. Would have to be significantly cheaper, which I'm not convinced it is.

Why would you have to dig up you're tired garden and driveway to lay a SWA cable?? You only need a trench a few inches wide!

My last car I took to over 100k miles, and basically only changed tyres and brakes. Which EVs have, and are more likely to wear through due to their shear weight

Actually all of our EVs have had significantly lower rates of tyre wear than the ICE vehicles we had. My Tesla has done 70,000 miles in my possession. The tyres weren't not new when I bought it but I've only bought 6 tyres in that time, and they are still only half worn.
The Tesla weighs less than a BMW 3 series, by the way.

As well as changing tyres and brakes you will have had oil, filters and other servicing costs. Total maintenance bill for the Tesla has been the 6 tyres, washer fluid, wiper blades (DIY), air conditioning filter (DIY and about £40) and some suspension components replaced for the grand sum of £120.

 

[cactustwirly]

Why would you have to dig up you're tired garden and driveway to lay a SWA cable?? You only need a trench a few inches wide!

Actually all of our EVs have had significantly lower rates of tyre wear than the ICE vehicles we had. My Tesla has done 70,000 miles in my possession. The tyres weren't not new when I bought it but I've only bought 6 tyres in that time, and they are still only half worn.
The Tesla weighs less than a BMW 3 series, by the way.

As well as changing tyres and brakes you will have had oil, filters and other servicing costs. Total maintenance bill for the Tesla has been the 6 tyres, washer fluid, wiper blades (DIY), air conditioning filter (DIY and about £40) and some suspension components replaced for the grand sum of £120.

Well I'd need to lay a trench across my garden and under my outbuilding yes which isn't going to cheap.

Plus I have restrictive convenants which need to be taken care of

 

[Bald Rick]

1.5 hours at 2kW for a tumble dryer, = 3kW/hr

To be fair I was specifically refering to rural locations, which is where I see the problems arising

Average EV Usage 0.3kW/hr per mile. Typical average useage for our area 10,000 miles per annum. (Nearest town 10 mile round trip, a lot commute to Scarborough or Driffield which is 30 ish mile round trip. So taking the average of 10,000miles pa which is typical for a rural area car usage that is about 9kW/hr per day. Thats additional load, on an already (locally) unreliable supply, more houses have been built, per house consumption has risen, and that has been reflected in an increasing number of outages while we have lived here (nearly 20 years).

We average 8000 miles a year, dont use the car for holidays and I work from home, long journeys are done by train.

I realise a town/city based user will/could have lower usage, more public transport, things with in walking distance, but rural car users dont have that option in most cases.

Average cycle usage of a tumble dryer is normally 4-5kWh. (If your drier can dry a full load in 90 mins at 2kW, it’s much better than mine)

In 2024, average mileage per car was 6,500 miles. As you say, average miles per kWh is around 3-4 miles, lets say 3.5 miles. That’s 5kWh a day.