UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Sun Chariot]

Put like that, given that electric motors are mechanically far simpler (and more reliable?) than ICEs, surely an electric military vehicle would be ideal - strap a few spare batteries to the side, and maybe a solar panel to the roof!

Delicate electronics - possibly more susceptible to blasts of desert sand, to close proximity ordnance blasts and to large fluctuations in ambient temperature?

 

[Bletchleyite]

My current Mondeo cost £22k new and £8.5k with 56k miles when it was just under 3 years old. Pro-rata, the Niro would be £16.2k Perhaps the Niro will get cheaper as higher mileage cars come off 3 year leases in the next year.

I think you need to compare with ICE prices now, which have also gone up, partly because of the weaker Pound since Brexit and partly because those prices can be hidden via PCPs. If you could buy new Mondeos now (you can't) they'd be nearer £40K.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2024 ==

Delicate electronics - possibly more susceptible to blasts of desert sand, to close proximity ordnance blasts and ro large fluctuations in ambient temperature?

A military EV might more usefully be bigger and heavier with lead-acid batteries and simple electrics - more of a milk float. It depends, though, what you want it to do.

 

[Arrpi87]

I've just taken the plunge by taking advantage of the NHS car lease scheme.
Soon I'll be getting rid of my thirsty diesel Insignia estate and getting a Skoda Enyaq, the version with a bigger battery and longer range. They're also going to pop a charge point on the house.

I mostly potter about the Wigan area, with occasional trips to Kent to see the family. So with the research I've undertaken, including joining the Skoda forums and reading posts from real users, I think I'll be ok. In summer I might just make it to Kent on a full charge, but seeing as I'll need to stop anyway, I'll give it a top up halfway or 2/3 way.

 

[RailWonderer]

Military needs differ hugely from civilian needs when it comes to vehicles, though. Nothing highlights this as much as the ridiculousness of Land Rover Defenders and Land Cruisers knocking around central London.

When Siberia reaches -50c and -20c isn't unusual in many parts of Russia and Canada, then the Gulf States and Arizona where 40-50c heat is usual, there are many places that aren't about to take up EVs anytime soon. The UK doesn't have any such extremes so EV ownership is only down to the abundance of plug points in carparks, on streets and people willing to install charging points in their driveways.

 

[MotCO]

The ridiculously high new prices are the problem here. At present if you want an EV three years old is a better bet as most of the depreciation has happened. But the trend is shifting now - most notably the new Vauxhall Frontera (a budget SUV in the same sort of market as the Dacia one) is the same price as both ICE and EV and is quite reasonably priced at just over £20K based on the current market.

Are you counting hybrids as ICEs? A basic non-hybrid ICE is always cheaper than a similarly spec'ed EV, so the comparison is not valid. A hybrid and EV can cost the same.

Put like that, given that electric motors are mechanically far simpler (and more reliable?) than ICEs, surely an electric military vehicle would be ideal - strap a few spare batteries to the side, and maybe a solar panel to the roof!

So we can only fight during the day, and not much in winter?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you counting hybrids as ICEs?

Yes, because non-hybrid ICEs won't be available new very soon by law.

 

[AM9]

Delicate electronics - possibly more susceptible to blasts of desert sand, to close proximity ordnance blasts and to large fluctuations in ambient temperature?

Absolutely not! Military spec electronics' durability far exceeds that in use on any commercial road vehicles. Nuclear hardening, (EMP in particular) is standard in frontline equipment be it land, sea or airborne. The next version of the US Abrams battle tank will have a Gas Turbine electric traction system that will have an electric only stealth mode with a lower acoustic footprint and no detectable exhaust emissions.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Absolutely not! Military spec electronics' durability far exceeds that in use on any commercial road vehicles. Nuclear hardening, (EMP in particular) is standard in frontline equipment be it land, sea or airborne. The next version of the US Abrams battle tank will have a Gas Turbine electric traction system that will have an electric only stealth mode with a lower acoustic footprint and no detectable exhaust emissions.

That's great to know, thanks for the insight. I wonder if, as the years advance, some of that technology will trickle down into consumer EV markets (commercial / public service / private ownership vehicles).

 

[AM9]

That's great to know, thanks for the insight. I wonder if, as the years advance, some of that technology will trickle down into consumer EV markets (commercial / public service / private ownership vehicles).

In some areas it already has, some electronic components and modules used in ordinary road vehicles in high stress applications, e.g. ECUs, brake, steering and suspension controls where not only temperatures, but vibration, and aggressive electrical surges are encountered - all in a cost sensitive market. According to AECQ100, there are two temperature grades for automotive: Grade 0 (-40 to 150 degC) and Grade 1 (-40 to 125 degC).
The main difference for full military spec components is at the lower end where temperatures at flight cruising altitudes need a capability of operation at -55 deg C.
Radiation hardening is mainly designed in protection from clamping circuits that prevent EMP from destroying through power supplies and other interfaces.

 

[MotCO]

That's great to know, thanks for the insight. I wonder if, as the years advance, some of that technology will trickle down into consumer EV markets (commercial / public service / private ownership vehicles).

So you can travel around undetected?

 

[greyman42]

If you could buy new Mondeos now (you can't) they'd be nearer £40K.

You can get a new Mercedes C Class for around £37k.

 

[3141]

You can get a new Mercedes C Class for around £37k.

I'm not buying a new car because of the price and the depreciation. If I bought a used EV it would be a lot cheaper than new but the range would be far less - it seems that advances in battery technology have at last given new EVs a range approaching realistic, and in another couple of years it may actually be realistic.

Then there's the question of what it would cost if the battery needed replacing. Most ICEs last for tens of thousands of miles. Batteries?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then there's the question of what it would cost if the battery needed replacing. Most ICEs last for tens of thousands of miles. Batteries?

In any meaningful sense the same as the engine in an ICE. That is, it'll outlast the bodywork.

 

[Darandio]

Then there's the question of what it would cost if the battery needed replacing. Most ICEs last for tens of thousands of miles. Batteries?

The thread is only 140+ pages long and has your answers. Multiple times.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm not buying a new car because of the price and the depreciation. If I bought a used EV it would be a lot cheaper than new but the range would be far less - it seems that advances in battery technology have at last given new EVs a range approaching realistic, and in another couple of years it may actually be realistic.

Then there's the question of what it would cost if the battery needed replacing. Most ICEs last for tens of thousands of miles. Batteries?

That is my position. I do not buy new cars. I can see that there is now/soon a realistic chance of the battery not defining the shelf life of the car. I have never had to replace an ICE engine but I have bought old enough cars to make that a concern.

In any meaningful sense the same as the engine in an ICE. That is, it'll outlast the bodywork.

If I think back to the 1980s and 1990s there were plenty of rust buckets around. A ten year old car was unlikely to come with no visible signs of rust. So body work has improved (I have been told the advent of galvanising the bare body made the big difference) but hand in hand ICE engines have got better as well. I can only assume battery technology will improve faster than the previous to life definng issues.

The thread is only 140+ pages long and has your answers. Multiple times.

There is definitely a discernible improvement in battery technology over the last ten-fifteen years. Really it amazes me that battery thermal management was so late to the party. We can explain it as new evolving technology - but I am not going to be the beta testa !.

I wonder what these conversations will look like in, probably, about ten years time !.

 

[jon0844]

I'm not buying a new car because of the price and the depreciation. If I bought a used EV it would be a lot cheaper than new but the range would be far less - it seems that advances in battery technology have at last given new EVs a range approaching realistic, and in another couple of years it may actually be realistic.

Then there's the question of what it would cost if the battery needed replacing. Most ICEs last for tens of thousands of miles. Batteries?

I just watched a video on a 10 year old Tesla Model S from 2014 with 250,000 miles and 82% battery health. Besides the need for suspension works (usual stuff that would apply to an ICE car) this model came with free super charging for life.

Now if we assume petrol to work out at around 15p per mile, that's £37,500 saved in petrol! And the car is still good for around 150-200 miles per charge. That's down from around 300 miles when new, but for a lot of people that's still ample.

Obviously EVs don't all come with free charging, but most batteries are lasting longer than expected and retaining an excellent state of health - even many early Nissan Leafs that weren't exactly designed with battery longevity in mind. There are many Teslas that have been used as taxis or luxury cars for taking people to airports etc.

Plus you don't need replace the battery in almost all cases. You can fix them by replacing individual cells, modules or the battery management system. It's highly unlikely that every cell will have failed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2024 ==

There is definitely a discernible improvement in battery technology over the last ten-fifteen years. Really it amazes me that battery thermal management was so late to the party. We can explain it as new evolving technology - but I am not going to be the beta testa !.

I wonder what these conversations will look like in, probably, about ten years time !.

There are many different technologies on the horizon, but I think a lot of people are actually quite happy to get a car with a smaller battery and lower weight - and aren't actually waiting for that advance that brings them 500-1000 miles per charge. Perhaps people in the USA are craving this for incredible road trips, but most journeys in the UK just don't need that sort of range - and it's been stated many times how little most people drive every day.

As long as charging is widely available, ideally at the destination so you don't need to stop enroute, 300-350 miles is probably the sweet spot for most people who do a lot of driving. I am sure there are crazy edge cases, and a larger battery will likely satisfy those needs, but most people really don't need the range they think they do - and once they own an EV will quickly realise they don't need.

Like smartphones that now have ample battery life (with vastly reduced power consumption), I think range anxiety isn't the problem people are constantly told it is.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I just watched a video on a 10 year old Tesla Model S from 2014 with 250,000 miles and 82% battery health. Besides the need for suspension works (usual stuff that would apply to an ICE car) this model came with free super charging for life.

Now if we assume petrol to work out at around 15p per mile, that's £37,500 saved in petrol! And the car is still good for around 150-200 miles per charge. That's down from around 300 miles when new, but for a lot of people that's still ample.

Obviously EVs don't all come with free charging, but most batteries are lasting longer than expected and retaining an excellent state of health - even many early Nissan Leafs that weren't exactly designed with battery longevity in mind. There are many Teslas that have been used as taxis or luxury cars for taking people to airports etc.

Plus you don't need replace the battery in almost all cases. You can fix them by replacing individual cells, modules or the battery management system. It's highly unlikely that every cell will have failed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2024 ==



There are many different technologies on the horizon, but I think a lot of people are actually quite happy to get a car with a smaller battery and lower weight - and aren't actually waiting for that advance that brings them 500-1000 miles per charge. Perhaps people in the USA are craving this for incredible road trips, but most journeys in the UK just don't need that sort of range - and it's been stated many times how little most people drive every day.

As long as charging is widely available, ideally at the destination so you don't need to stop enroute, 300-350 miles is probably the sweet spot for most people who do a lot of driving. I am sure there are crazy edge cases, and a larger battery will likely satisfy those needs, but most people really don't need the range they think they do - and once they own an EV will quickly realise they don't need.

Like smartphones that now have ample battery life (with vastly reduced power consumption), I think range anxiety isn't the problem people are constantly told it is.

For my point of view being able to get from Croydon (London) to deepest Scotland would be the ultimate fr battery range. That is without major stops - but yes enough for a rest break. Then to be able to easily and conveniently charge at the destination would be ideal. Lets face it Britain is only so big !.

Really battery range needs to cover comfortably the maximum a driver could sensibly do in one day. And then we can debate about weight versus most trips being a lot shorter. Maybe a significant chunk of the battery being easy to remove. Probably 50% so that we are only charging and lugging around a smaller battery for the trips in town.

All a bit academic for me as I try to walk and use public transport as much as I can. That is easier in London of course. So a high mileage vehicle never bothered me as I would use it so little - but a knackered range would make it pointless.

 

[Bald Rick]

For my point of view being able to get from Croydon (London) to deepest Scotland would be the ultimate fr battery range. That is without major stops - but yes enough for a rest break. Then to be able to easily and conveniently charge at the destination would be ideal. Lets face it Britain is only so big !.

But that is easily done now.

I have mentioned before, but when I visit the more remote parts of the Highlands I routinely see cars with Dutch, German etc reg plates in EVs (usually Teslas, Polestars or BMWs). Naturally I don’t know now many stops they have made en route. For me, when my EV arrives I will be driving to the Highlands with a couple of routine stops (as I do now in my petrol car), ie a stop for 30-45 minutes for something to eat / WC / food shopping for the holiday. But you can easily do that now with many types of EV, and I know people who do (very recently a friend of mine drove north London to Oban with two stops in a 2 year old Skoda Enyiaq, and then back 2 days later).

 

[trebor79]

Then there's the question of what it would cost if the battery needed replacing. Most ICEs last for tens of thousands of miles. Batteries?

Hundreds of thousands of miles. Many Tesla's and MG 5s over 200,000 miles and still going.

Plus you don't need replace the battery in almost all cases. You can fix them by replacing individual cells, modules or the battery management system. It's highly unlikely that every cell will have failed.

Ah unfortunately it's not that simple. A new cell will have a different capacity to old cells, and that would lead to the pack getting imbalanced and either overcharging the new cell or over discharging the older cells. In both cases Bad Things happen.
The other effect is that at high power demands the higher voltage modules will contribute less current, so creates higher current in the other modules, that can lead to thermal stress and failure.
It's a bigger version of not mixing used and new or different brands of AA batteries. But it's the same fundamental reason that voltage imbalance leads to current imbalance and cell failure.
There are/were companies that would do this kind of thing but they have largely stopped as usually the pack fails shortly after such a "repair".
In fact the Tesla Model 3 pack is deliberately designed such that opening it and attempting to remove individual cells will cause irreparable damage.

As long as charging is widely available, ideally at the destination so you don't need to stop enroute, 300-350 miles is probably the sweet spot for most people who do a lot of driving.

Agree. In fact if driving that sort of distance you should be stopping at least once anyway.

I am sure there are crazy edge cases, and a larger battery will likely satisfy those needs, but most people really don't need the range they think they do - and once they own an EV will quickly realise they don't need.

Bigger battery would be useful if you tow a caravan or similar.

Like smartphones that now have ample battery life (with vastly reduced power consumption), I think range anxiety isn't the problem people are constantly told it is.

Correct. I never think about charging. There are chargers everywhere. I stopped at a random petrol station the A17 this morning for a wee and to buy a coffee. There were 4 150kW chargers there so I plugged in as might as well. 10% added in the time I was stopped anyway.

Really battery range needs to cover comfortably the maximum a driver could sensibly do in one day.

No it doesn't. It only needs to cover the range that you can sensibly drove without a break. Call that 3 hours on the motorway, so 200 miles real range (80%-10%) is adequate, or circa 300 mile 100%-0% range. Anything else is just a comfort blanket unless you need a bigger battery for towing a caravan etc.

 

[jon0844]

I am pretty sure Tesla's reason for stopping people being able to 'repair' a battery isn't for safety reasons!

I understand the issues with balancing of cells but there are companies doing this and likely using salvaged batteries and testing each one to get this right, as most people will be trying to save money and not wanting brand new cells mixed in with their existing battery pack. But, safety is a genuine concern even if it will be used as an excuse by many manufacturers who don't want people being able to repair their own vehicles.

 

[MotCO]

Bigger battery would be useful if you tow a caravan or similar.

Would the ideal solution be to have a plug-in battery to boost the range, but this would have to be in the towed part? Or would it make the trailer too heavy? The towed battery would need to be compatible, I assume, with the car battery.

 

[trebor79]

I am pretty sure Tesla's reason for stopping people being able to 'repair' a battery isn't for safety reasons!

I understand the issues with balancing of cells but there are companies doing this and likely using salvaged batteries and testing each one to get this right, as most people will be trying to save money and not wanting brand new cells mixed in with their existing battery pack. But, safety is a genuine concern even if it will be used as an excuse by many manufacturers who don't want people being able to repair their own vehicles.

The thing is it's very difficult to match cells. The only way you can do it properly is to run the cells through some charge and discharge cycles. This is time consuming, labour intensive and needs specialist equipment.
As cell costs continue to decline steeply, it's probably more economic to just recycle the whole pack and buy a new or part used one.

Would the ideal solution be to have a plug-in battery to boost the range, but this would have to be in the towed part? Or would it make the trailer too heavy? The towed battery would need to be compatible, I assume, with the car battery.

Not sure about the practicalities of that. You're talking about a 400V or 800V bus line.
How is the trailer pack balanced to the car pack?

 

[Energy]

Would the ideal solution be to have a plug-in battery to boost the range, but this would have to be in the towed part? Or would it make the trailer too heavy? The towed battery would need to be compatible, I assume, with the car battery.

I'm not convinced it's worth it.

Caravans are limited to 50mph on single and 60mph on dual carriageways, so need to drive at a more efficient speed anyway. A big heavy battery means more kWh consumed, so the more time total will be spent charging but at fewer stations.

However, I would like to see pull-through EV chargers at services.

The thing is it's very difficult to match cells. The only way you can do it properly is to run the cells through some charge and discharge cycles. This is time consuming, labour intensive and needs specialist equipment.
As cell costs continue to decline steeply, it's probably more economic to just recycle the whole pack and buy a new or part used one.

Typically, packs are made up of modules connected in parallel. These modules can be mixed with newer modules of the same spec.

I expect most local garages will replace modules, and then send them to a larger company that can swap individual cells to fix and resell the modules. Swapping cells isn't difficult but you need a pool of preloved cells to match to the pack, which is much easier for larger operations.

Few packs will need this doing, most problems I've heard of is the overly cautious BMS on the VW ID3.

 

[paul1609]

But that is easily done now.

I have mentioned before, but when I visit the more remote parts of the Highlands I routinely see cars with Dutch, German etc reg plates in EVs (usually Teslas, Polestars or BMWs). Naturally I don’t know now many stops they have made en route. For me, when my EV arrives I will be driving to the Highlands with a couple of routine stops (as I do now in my petrol car), ie a stop for 30-45 minutes for something to eat / WC / food shopping for the holiday. But you can easily do that now with many types of EV, and I know people who do (very recently a friend of mine drove north London to Oban with two stops in a 2 year old Skoda Enyiaq, and then back 2 days later).

From the Kent Coast to the Highlands in my experience you'd need a high end vehicle with access to the Tesla Supercharger network to do that or you'd need to be very lucky or prepared to have such a long journey time that Id plan to break the journey overnight.
Utilizing a MG4 extended range from Enterprise Car Rental in Maidstone my electroverse app suggests that the optimal journey needs 4 charging stops of around 40 mins, I've done it once to tick it off in the taskbook of life but it's extremely tedious and frustrating having to stop in yet another McDonald's 100 miles short of your destination. My Hilux pickup truck easily reaches Loch Lomond from home before needing recharging and will have allowed an extended stop for a walk along the River Swale in the Yorkshire Dales before getting to Killin or indeed Cockermouth before the mid range EV.

 

[Mawkie]

The government have announced a consultation over the proposed date of petrol car phase out.

Consultation launched over petrol car phase-out (BBC Link)

A consultation has been launched on the phasing-out of new petrol and diesel cars by 2030.

The ban on UK sales of these vehicles had been extended to 2035 under the previous Conservative government but Labour said it would restore the 2030 deadline in its election manifesto.

Transport Secretary Heidi Alexander is now seeking views from automotive and charging experts to "restore clarity" on how to deliver the ban.

Usual calls from the usual places for government support for the roll out of infrastructure. Of course the UK car manufacturers would like to keep producing fossil fuel burning SUVs and call for a longer transition period and 'flexibility around the ZEV mandate'.

Will anything significant come out of this consultation?

Edit: Actual government press release here

 

[AM9]

The government have announced a consultation over the proposed date of petrol car phase out.

Consultation launched over petrol car phase-out (BBC Link)


Usual calls from the usual places for government support for the roll out of infrastructure. Of course the UK car manufacturers would like to keep producing fossil fuel burning SUVs and call for a longer transition period and 'flexibility around the ZEV mandate'.

Will anything significant come out of this consultation?

Edit: Actual government press release here

"A consultation has been launched on the phasing-out of new petrol and diesel cars by 2030" will be interpreted by some as a possible Government climbdown on the 2030 deadline. That might be a long way from what happens, -there could be a renewed effort to acclerate the deployment of chargers, - effectively removing a pseudo excuse that the media on behalf of the oil industry keeps on the boil.

 

[Bald Rick]

"A consultation has been launched on the phasing-out of new petrol and diesel cars by 2030" will be interpreted by some as a possible Government climbdown on the 2030 deadline. That might be a long way from what happens, -there could be a renewed effort to acclerate the deployment of chargers, - effectively removing a pseudo excuse that the media on behalf of the oil industry keeps on the boil.

I read it as a consultation to bring forward the current 2035 date to 2030 in line with the Labour manifesto.

Personally I expect the consultation to conclude that it will stay at 2035.

 

[MotCO]

The government have announced a consultation over the proposed date of petrol car phase out.

Consultation launched over petrol car phase-out (BBC Link)

The ban on UK sales of these vehicles had been extended to 2035 under the previous Conservative government but Labour said it would restore the 2030 deadline in its election manifesto.

I think the Conservative change to 2035 did not adjust the £15,000 penalty per ICE car that was above the 78% limit in 2024 etc, therefore the car industry had no incentive to change their production schedules. I assume that the car industry would like to see the penalties lifted or adjusted.

The other issue is what is the incentive for car manufacturers to improve upon ICE engines, given their short remaining life? There is still the market for ICE cars in countries where EV charging is non-existing, but UI can't see ICEs undergoing any further improvement.

 

[Ediswan]

A friend of mine has recently encountered an issue I have not seen mentioned here. They stopped to use one of GridServe's finest DC fast chargers. No go. All the charging cables had been cut off near their cabinets. Presumably the cable thieves had struck.

There were other chargers in working order.

 

[trebor79]

A friend of mine has recently encountered an issue I have not seen mentioned here. They stopped to use one of GridServe's finest DC fast chargers. No go. All the charging cables had been cut off near their cabinets. Presumably the cable thieves had struck.

There were other chargers in working order.

It's a bit of a problem but I understand that the companies are taking measures like fitting trackers in the cables at vulnerable sites.