UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[bspahh]

EVClinic is a company in Zagreb that repairs electric and hybrid cars. They have published an interesting buyers guide to used electric vehicles. I won't quote from it as it says:

********** IT IS PROHIBITED TO COPY CONTENT WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OF EV CLINIC **********

It discusses the problems that they see in their workshop, which ones can they repair, and which ones need expensive repairs.

 

[Peter Sarf]

EVClinic is a company in Zagreb that repairs electric and hybrid cars. They have published an interesting buyers guide to used electric vehicles. I won't quote from it as it says:


It discusses the problems that they see in their workshop, which ones can they repair, and which ones need expensive repairs.

Thanks for this,. I was a bit surprised.

Not read thoroughly but to see motors needing replacement at a cost of Euro5,000 was a surprise. I thought motors would go on for ever. Batteries in the tens of thousands of Euros disappoints me but is not surprise sadly - but the length of life is perhaps promising.

As I would expect there are some vast differences between makes and models. So like ICE cars there are some real problem cars and some that shine out for reliability.

The Hyundai Ionic 28kWh looked positive. Not old enough for me yet.

I have not read it all properly - but I would recommend it for a thorough reading.

 

[bspahh]

Not read thoroughly but to see motors needing replacement at a cost of Euro5,000 was a surprise. I thought motors would go on for ever. Batteries in the tens of thousands of Euros disappoints me but is not surprise sadly - but the length of life is perhaps promising.

EVClinic were mentioned in this video on a Renault Zoe which needed a new motor after 114k miles. A bearing had worn out. They tried to replace it, but another one was also worn.

EVClinic repair broken vehicles, so there will be a bias towards older cars, and they don't see people whose cars are working fine.

The attitude of Nissan to replacement parts looks like a red line to me.

If I could pick a car on its engineering and ignore the CEO, then it would be easier.

 

[Ediswan]

EVClinic were mentioned in this video on a Renault Zoe which needed a new motor after 114k miles. A bearing had worn out. They tried to replace it, but another one was also worn.

No explanation in the video of why they didn't/couldn't also replace the second bearing. Nor why they didn't spot the second bearng was worn before working on the first. Or maybe the presenter garbled the detail.

 

[bspahh]

No explanation in the video of why they didn't/couldn't also replace the second bearing. Nor why they didn't spot the second bearng was worn before working on the first. Or maybe the presenter garbled the detail.

I don't know. You could ask Jonathan Porterfield in the comments of his video.

garycevrepairs has done a couple of videos on repairing the motor bearings on a similar Renault Zoe. This one says it took him 15 hours and a couple of hundred quid in parts. He has another 2 hour video with more detail.

To get more people to switch to electric cars, it will really help for there to be an ecosystem of mechanics who can keep the old ones on the road, and to make it worthwhile for a scrap dealers to strip EVs for parts, rather than turning them into razor blades and landfill.

 

[AM9]

I don't know. You could ask Jonathan Porterfield in the comments of his video.

garycevrepairs has done a couple of videos on repairing the motor bearings on a similar Renault Zoe. This one says it took him 15 hours and a couple of hundred quid in parts. He has another 2 hour video with more detail.

To get more people to switch to electric cars, it will really help for there to be an ecosystem of mechanics who can keep the old ones on the road, and to make it worthwhile for a scrap dealers to strip EVs for parts, rather than turning them into razor blades and landfill.

Is there any evidence of scrapped EVs being scrapped without any parts recovery?

 

[GusB]

To get more people to switch to electric cars, it will really help for there to be an ecosystem of mechanics who can keep the old ones on the road, and to make it worthwhile for a scrap dealers to strip EVs for parts, rather than turning them into razor blades and landfill.

That ecosystem will come, eventually.

Will it be any different from the ecosystem that we currrently have for ICE vehicles? You have a market for new cars, a market for used cars that are a few years old and then we get into the realms of "bangernomics". When I first started driving, I was very much at the lower tier of the market and made full use of my local scrappy in order to obtain parts for my battered Mk1 Fiesta. I'd pay for the parts that they removed and stored in the warehouse, but if I needed something that wasn't common and was able to remove it for myself, there was no charge a blind eye was turned.

We have moved on quite a bit since then. That local scrappy (and many others within my area) are no more, while the more "professional" outfits remain as "vehicle recyclers".

The current crop of "mechanics" should also be undergoing training as electricians; any car maintenance business that wants to stay relevant will have to invest or risk becoming irrelevant in the future.

 

[jon0844]

I've said for ages that the jobs of tomorrow will be working with things like EVs, heat pumps, solar, home batteries from installations, maintenance/repairs and eventually removal and recycling etc.

Those who dismiss these technologies will end up out of a job one day and extremely bitter and resentful, while others who embraced the moves will profit. Simply capitalism in play.

Of course there are many mechanics who seem to have no intention of giving up on ICE and if they're specialists in specific fields then of course there's going to be work there for some years, but for most people it's time to get trained up and ready to move. I hope colleges and universities are adapting sufficiently fast to embrace things also.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don't know. You could ask Jonathan Porterfield in the comments of his video.

garycevrepairs has done a couple of videos on repairing the motor bearings on a similar Renault Zoe. This one says it took him 15 hours and a couple of hundred quid in parts. He has another 2 hour video with more detail.

To get more people to switch to electric cars, it will really help for there to be an ecosystem of mechanics who can keep the old ones on the road, and to make it worthwhile for a scrap dealers to strip EVs for parts, rather than turning them into razor blades and landfill.

The depreciation on EVs will be pretty harsh if they are unusable at ten years old. There will be a balance - has to be. There is plenty of demand for older cars from people who will not or cannot afford the depreciation. If second hand EVs cannot satisfy that demand then there will eventually be a lot of very old ICE cars around or a lot of less mobile people.

The EV crisis will be if the balance of economics is destroyed by EVs being unusable within ten years. They have to either last longer OR be a lot cheaper to buy. I hope the quality of EVs will be good enough to avoid prices for new slipping too far downwards thus leading to a throw away society attitude to cars.

I've said for ages that the jobs of tomorrow will be working with things like EVs, heat pumps, solar, home batteries from installations, maintenance/repairs and eventually removal and recycling etc.

Those who dismiss these technologies will end up out of a job one day and extremely bitter and resentful, while others who embraced the moves will profit. Simply capitalism in play.

Of course there are many mechanics who seem to have no intention of giving up on ICE and if they're specialists in specific fields then of course there's going to be work there for some years, but for most people it's time to get trained up and ready to move. I hope colleges and universities are adapting sufficiently fast to embrace things also.

I think age will play a part. Older mechanics will not bother to learn the new technology. Younger people will be more amenable to learning something new and of course they will have longer to benefit from learning it.

The snag will be if the pace of change from ICE to EV outstrips the supply of younger mechanics qualified for the EVs. I can see a lot of pressure on middle aged mechanics to think younger !.

 

[AM9]

If second hand EVs cannot satisfy that demand then there will eventually be a lot of very old ICE cars around or a lot of less mobile people.

The latter not necessarily being such a bad thing.

The snag will be if the pace of change from ICE to EV outstrips the supply of younger mechanics qualified for the EVs. I can see a lot of pressure on middle aged mechanics to think younger !.

That also is not necessarily a problem, updating trainng to embrace new technology is a feature of the 21st century as the pace of change increases.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, I doubt the retraining will take as long as becoming a train driver, airline pilot or a London cabbie.

I expect any mechanic could do it, and likely should!

Those who refuse and just slag off process will soon get found wanting.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The latter not necessarily being such a bad thing.

Ideally they will become more self propelled mobile.

That also is not necessarily a problem, updating trainng to embrace new technology is a feature of the 21st century as the pace of change increases.

I think training is harder the older one gets. So the oldest mechanics can carry on with the dwindling number of ICE cars.

We should perhaps demand that the government looks into funding training for EV mechanics - after all the government are "encouraging" EVs. Otherwise training can be thin and far between as you get older.

 

[GusB]

Ideally they will become more self propelled mobile.

I think training is harder the older one gets. So the oldest mechanics can carry on with the dwindling number of ICE cars.

I'm not sure that training is harder the older you get. My dad was an avionics engineer and had to undertake type-training courses for any new aircraft that they flew, as well as having periodic refresher courses on existing types. Such courses often involved a few days away from home on company expenses and he was usually quite happy to have a change of scenery.

Aren't you being slightly ageist by suggesting that older mechanics are unable to adapt to new technology? Someone who is approaching retirement age will have started their own training between the late 70s and mid 80s and will have witnessed many technological advances as far as internal combustion technology is concerned. They are the ones who will be training the next generation. I have no doubt that there will be a few mechanics who don't want to engage with EVs at all; that's fine too, but anyone who does so is seriously limiting their future business. Let's not forget that if you learn about EVs, the skills you've learned on ICE cars over the years won't magically disappear overnight; if you can fix both that's a bonus, surely?

We should perhaps demand that the government looks into funding training for EV mechanics - after all the government are "encouraging" EVs. Otherwise training can be thin and far between as you get older.

Yes and no. The government should be doing much more to provide training for people of all levels so that people can move to new jobs as and when their original skills become less relevant with time, but any business that wishes to stay relevant also needs to ensure that its staff is suitably trained.

 

[AM9]

Ideally they will become more self propelled mobile.

I think training is harder the older one gets. So the oldest mechanics can carry on with the dwindling number of ICE cars.

We should perhaps demand that the government looks into funding training for EV mechanics - after all the government are "encouraging" EVs. Otherwise training can be thin and far between as you get older.

Probably better that training costs are eligible for tax relief as a decarbonisation issue as there will be technology differences between the majority brands.
I think the age thing will be minimal, the over '60s will probably be retired before volume training starts, those below that age are likely to take on some conversion training.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm not sure that training is harder the older you get. My dad was an avionics engineer and had to undertake type-training courses for any new aircraft that they flew, as well as having periodic refresher courses on existing types. Such courses often involved a few days away from home on company expenses and he was usually quite happy to have a change of scenery.

Aren't you being slightly ageist by suggesting that older mechanics are unable to adapt to new technology? Someone who is approaching retirement age will have started their own training between the late 70s and mid 80s and will have witnessed many technological advances as far as internal combustion technology is concerned. They are the ones who will be training the next generation. I have no doubt that there will be a few mechanics who don't want to engage with EVs at all; that's fine too, but anyone who does so is seriously limiting their future business. Let's not forget that if you learn about EVs, the skills you've learned on ICE cars over the years won't magically disappear overnight; if you can fix both that's a bonus, surely?


Yes and no. The government should be doing much more to provide training for people of all levels so that people can move to new jobs as and when their original skills become less relevant with time, but any business that wishes to stay relevant also needs to ensure that its staff is suitably trained.

At 64 years of age I realise I have less inclination to learn new skills. Some of it is I want to benefit from what I already know of course but I think the ability to learn is not as good as it was.

Many years ago I watched accessibility to courses at local college change from technical skill (even accounting) to courses on softer skills like social work and even English as a second language (which is a very important skills gap to fill generally). There was a computer networking course I wanted to do (CISCO iirc) to fill a gap in my knowledge but for about four years in a row it was cancelled late on every year - I gave up looking at that !.

I think for many mechanics it might be a big change as all of a sudden electrics is a must have. I can recall mechanics that were quite good but would never touch the wiring of a car beyond the spark plug leads.

A more worrying trend is that at my favoured garage they cannot recruit and retain young trainee mechanics. I have heard this before. I think being a football star, YouTube star or suchlike is what every youngster wants to do today.

Probably better that training costs are eligible for tax relief as a decarbonisation issue as there will be technology differences between the majority brands.
I think the age thing will be minimal, the over '60s will probably be retired before volume training starts, those below that age are likely to take on some conversion training.

Yes training in the EV field would be a decarbonisation issue/gain.

That is how I see it regarding training. The older one s the less inclined to learn new skills and the less need really.

 

[AM9]

At 64 years of age I realise I have less inclination to learn new skills. Some of it is I want to benefit from what I already know of course but I think the ability to learn is not as good as it was.

Many years ago I watched accessibility to courses at local college change from technical skill (even accounting) to courses on softer skills like social work and even English as a second language (which is a very important skills gap to fill generally). There was a computer networking course I wanted to do (CISCO iirc) to fill a gap in my knowledge but for about four years in a row it was cancelled late on every year - I gave up looking at that !.

I think for many mechanics it might be a big change as all of a sudden electrics is a must have. I can recall mechanics that were quite good but would never touch the wiring of a car beyond the spark plug leads.

A more worrying trend is that at my favoured garage they cannot recruit and retain young trainee mechanics. I have heard this before. I think being a football star, YouTube star or suchlike is what every youngster wants to do today.

Yes training in the EV field would be a decarbonisation issue/gain.

That is how I see it regarding training. The older one s the less inclined to learn new skills and the less need really.

There are levels of auto maintenance engineers within service organisations. Depending on the size of the outfit, there's usually one or more who specialises in electrics, another subsection that is conversant with tuning and the adjustmennt/fixing of timing, injection and valve operation, then bodywork cleaning/minor repairs etc., so with a reduced overall workload the electric traction experts will replace those who have all the different skills associated with the IC engine and it's traction. I can't see why older technicians/mechanics won't be able (as a group) to extend their skillset to allow the workforce to provide adequate EV servicing resources.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There are levels of auto maintenance engineers within service organisations. Depending on the size of the outfit, there's usually one or more who specialises in electrics, another subsection that is conversant with tuning and the adjustmennt/fixing of timing, injection and valve operation, then bodywork cleaning/minor repairs etc., so with a reduced overall workload the electric traction experts will replace those who have all the different skills associated with the IC engine and it's traction. I can't see why older technicians/mechanics won't be able (as a group) to extend their skillset to allow the workforce to provide adequate EV servicing resources.

It occurs to me that it is going to be the small garages where that would be a challenge perhaps. Also mobile mechanics but they can be quite niche anyway. My favoured garage has three people - probably something has to give if one of them becomes an expert on the EV side. I know it is worrying the owner - perhaps a young mechanic would be keener to learn EV things so the job could be attractive but there is no one to be the teacher. Who teaches the teachers I wonder ?.

It does seem currently battery tech is a niche area judging by who I find posting on the web. But then the existence of battery specialists as a niche is no different to ICE engine re-manufacturers ?.

 

[AM9]

It occurs to me that it is going to be the small garages where that would be a challenge perhaps. Also mobile mechanics but they can be quite niche anyway. My favoured garage has three people - probably something has to give if one of them becomes an expert on the EV side. I know it is worrying the owner - perhaps a young mechanic would be keener to learn EV things so the job could be attractive but there is no one to be the teacher. Who teaches the teachers I wonder ?.

It does seem currently battery tech is a niche area judging by who I find posting on the web. But then the existence of battery specialists as a niche is no different to ICE engine re-manufacturers ?.

I think a small service operation is likely to become more of a 'run self test and report to a diagnostic centre for either a guided fix, or sending a mobile expert. Small independent service operations might not like the changes but that's no reason for owners to shun zero carbon traction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It occurs to me that it is going to be the small garages where that would be a challenge perhaps. Also mobile mechanics but they can be quite niche anyway. My favoured garage has three people - probably something has to give if one of them becomes an expert on the EV side. I know it is worrying the owner - perhaps a young mechanic would be keener to learn EV things so the job could be attractive but there is no one to be the teacher. Who teaches the teachers I wonder ?.

That of course doesn't mean we shouldn't switch to EVs. Businesses exist to provide a need and to make money doing so. If the need ceases, so does the business. That's the risk one takes when setting one up, particularly if one fails to adapt.

When did you last see a video rental store? Do you think we should have all retained VHS machines because these businesses had a right to exist, rather than just existing when people wanted to rent VHS cassettes and stopping once that market ceased to exist?

 

[Bald Rick]

It occurs to me that it is going to be the small garages where that would be a challenge perhaps. Also mobile mechanics but they can be quite niche anyway. My favoured garage has three people - probably something has to give if one of them becomes an expert on the EV side. I know it is worrying the owner - perhaps a young mechanic would be keener to learn EV things so the job could be attractive but there is no one to be the teacher. Who teaches the teachers I wonder ?.

But life moves on. I bet all those people who were stable boys, or blacksmiths, or whatever, retrained pretty swiftly 100 years ago.

 

[dcbwhaley]

But life moves on. I bet all those people who were stable boys, or blacksmiths, or whatever, retrained pretty swiftly 100 years ago.

It has always astonished me just how quickly a cadre of competent motor car mechanics was created in the early days of motoring

 

[MotCO]

It has always astonished me just how quickly a cadre of competent motor car mechanics was created in the early days of motoring

Was that partially due to World War 1? I would have thought that the army may have needed to train up mechanics to service the vehicles sent to France.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Exactly. WW1 and WW2 generated a sizeable pool of people skilled in building and repairing all manner of motor vehicles: of land, air and sea.
The 'Big Four' played a role: their workshops and the existing skilled workforce were used, in part, for fabrication of military vehicles and equipment.

 

[Peter Sarf]

That of course doesn't mean we shouldn't switch to EVs. Businesses exist to provide a need and to make money doing so. If the need ceases, so does the business. That's the risk one takes when setting one up, particularly if one fails to adapt.

When did you last see a video rental store? Do you think we should have all retained VHS machines because these businesses had a right to exist, rather than just existing when people wanted to rent VHS cassettes and stopping once that market ceased to exist?

Oh I have no doubt progress will happen. And I think it will filter down from the large dealerships and approved repairers (who don't actually know what they are doing) to the smaller garages users of older cars rely on. I would say that ICEs are not yet extinct and obviously for the number of ICEs to dramatically drop will take at least ten years.

It will be interesting notice the average age of an EV compared to the average age of an ICE as the years go by. If progress is being made then the average age of ICEs will go up due to a dwindling number of new ICEs. The average age of EVs will initially be young due to the lack of older models. Eventully, once ICEs are all but gone, the average age of EVs might match the pre EV era average age of ICEs. BUT hopefully the average age of EVs will be much higher indicating better reliability and endurance. That will be good for ecology but not so good for manufacturers.

A lateral thinking twist in the above is if the average number of cars (or mileage) goes down due to people venturing out on their own two feet !.

It looks like take-up amongst non-fleet new car buyers is not picking up - seems it is mainly fleet ?. So there will be an interesting position where there are plenty of very used EVs around (on their second and third owner) but fewer brand new EVs in the hands of private owners. But then I do not know what proportion of brand new cars went to fleet buyers over ten years ago (so non-EV era).

Was that partially due to World War 1? I would have thought that the army may have needed to train up mechanics to service the vehicles sent to France.

+

Exactly. WW1 and WW2 generated a sizeable pool of people skilled in building and repairing all manner of motor vehicles: of land, air and sea.
The 'Big Four' played a role: their workshops and the existing skilled workforce were used, in part, for fabrication of military vehicles and equipment.

Not only did the wars provide a lot of training but also a lot of army surplus vehicles for use by fledgling road transport operations.

I have wondered how quickly the armed forces are (or might) migrate to EVs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It looks like take-up amongst non-fleet new car buyers is not picking up - seems it is mainly fleet ?. So there will be an interesting position where there are plenty of very used EVs around (on their second and third owner) but fewer brand new EVs in the hands of private owners. But then I do not know what proportion of brand new cars went to fleet buyers over ten years ago (so non-EV era).

The ridiculously high new prices are the problem here. At present if you want an EV three years old is a better bet as most of the depreciation has happened. But the trend is shifting now - most notably the new Vauxhall Frontera (a budget SUV in the same sort of market as the Dacia one) is the same price as both ICE and EV and is quite reasonably priced at just over £20K based on the current market.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I have wondered how quickly the armed forces are (or might) migrate to EVs.

Military aviation has been making strides. I had a glimpse into how far, during my last role.

Vehicles, I suspect are unviable until EV resilience evolves.
Scenario - a barren, hostile territory; mountainous or desert terrain, wildly varying temperatures.
ICE: mechanically robust / ability to fix them at the roadside, with "common" tools & skills / strap on a few fuel jerrycans - maximise operable range / able to withstand EMPs (Electro Magnetic Pulses).
EV....

 

[43066]

Scenario - barren, hostile territory; mountainous or desert terrain, wildly varying temperatures.
ICE: mechanically robust, able to fix at the roadside, strap a few fuel jerrycans onto the side, to maximise operable range.
EV....

Put like that, given that electric motors are mechanically far simpler (and more reliable?) than ICEs, surely an electric military vehicle would be ideal - strap a few spare batteries to the side, and maybe a solar panel to the roof!

Batteries need to get a bit smaller first, and take the point re. Temperature/range. We can’t be that far off the point that EVs equal or outperform ICEs in this setting, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Military aviation has been making strides. I had a glimpse into how far, during my last role.

Vehicles, I suspect are unviable until EV resilience evolves.
Scenario - a barren, hostile territory; mountainous or desert terrain, wildly varying temperatures.
ICE: mechanically robust / ability to fix them at the roadside, with "common" tools & skills / strap on a few fuel jerrycans - maximise operable range / able to withstand EMPs (Electro Magnetic Pulses).
EV....

Military needs differ hugely from civilian needs when it comes to vehicles, though. Nothing highlights this as much as the ridiculousness of Land Rover Defenders and Land Cruisers knocking around central London.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Military needs differ hugely from civilian needs when it comes to vehicles, though. Nothing highlights this as much as the ridiculousness of Land Rover Defenders and Land Cruisers knocking around central London.

That did make me chuckle. I used to cringe at the examples I saw in Westminster, Chelsea and Fulham, in the late 90s and early 00s.

 

[bspahh]

The ridiculously high new prices are the problem here. At present if you want an EV three years old is a better bet as most of the depreciation has happened. But the trend is shifting now - most notably the new Vauxhall Frontera (a budget SUV in the same sort of market as the Dacia one) is the same price as both ICE and EV and is quite reasonably priced at just over £20K based on the current market.

Fleets tend to buy more EVs and hybrids than private buyers because the tax is cheaper.

I have been tracking the asking price on Auto Trader for the cheapest KIA Niro EV 4 over the last year, with filters to ignore ones from private sellers and write offs. These were released in 2022 with a list price of ~ £42k. The asking price come down from ~£33k to £25k for a car with an average mileage (10k-25k miles). There are a couple of outliers with lower prices, which had 38k and 45k miles.


You can also get a brand new car with the same specification for £34,695. That is certainly not cheap, but £25k for a car with 25k miles isn't cheap either.

My current Mondeo cost £22k new and £8.5k with 56k miles when it was just under 3 years old. Pro-rata, the Niro would be £16.2k Perhaps the Niro will get cheaper as higher mileage cars come off 3 year leases in the next year.