UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[jon0844]

The London plan specifies just 20% of parking spaces should have charging points.

Most new developments in London are encouraged to be car free too (Aside for some blue badge spaces) A new development approved recently by me has 1,400 apartments with 138 spaces (mainly disabled) of which 20% electric car charging spaces. So 28 chargers for a development of 3,500 people...that won't be built well into the ICE ban !

Such restrictions are well meaning, but people still buy cars and then just park illegally, on verges, bits of grass, near junctions etc - causing all sorts of problems for residents and putting pedestrians and cyclists in danger etc.

I do think every new property needs at least one parking space, with a reasonable number of visitor parking spaces - and even loading bays at regular intervals with the acceptance that any given street now has a high frequency of delivery vans that otherwise cause problems.

But planners have guidelines to work to, which means the Government needs to set new guidelines for more modern times. Of course you want people to cycle, but you don't get people cycling by restricting car parking - you make cycling more appealing and safer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2024 ==

These flats are designed to be occupied by non-car-owners. Who needs a car when you live five minutes from a railway station with a train every 30 seconds to London and to lots of other places and shopping on your doorstep? They are aimed at largely younger people (who are going off cars) who want a specific type of lifestyle.

I agree that's the idea, and may work in many places - but some people still need a car to drive outside their home area, or one person in the household commutes by train but the other needs the car more locally, or for the school run, gym, football practice etc.

If you have amazing public transport and cycle lanes, great, but many people don't.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The thought was more that you won't need to charge daily, so you will only choose a bay with a charger if intending to charge.

Given the amount I use a car then my car would be stuck in the space for a week or more. That is unless I am prepared to g and get it for no reason other than to move it. I suppose the parallel would be the effort required to go and get petrol in my ICE but I know plenty leave that chore for as long as possible !.

 

[Bletchleyite]

See space. Park in space.
Or:
See space. Consider if someone else might need to recharge their car in it. Park elsewhere.

Human behavioural change, is always the most challenging change to implement.

Some car parks already have enforcement - if you're in a charging space and aren't plugged in, you get a fine. The act of plugging in is enough extra faff that people will only do so if there aren't any other spaces if they didn't intend to charge.

The other way to do it passively in large car parks e.g. supermarkets is that, aside from disabled bays which should really all have chargers, you put the spaces with chargers further from the entrance, so people will naturally choose the ones without chargers so they don't have to walk as far.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2024 ==

I agree that's the idea, and may work in many places - but some people still need a car to drive outside their home area, or one person in the household commutes by train but the other needs the car more locally, or for the school run, gym, football practice etc.

Then you don't choose to buy/rent a flat in a tower block in central Croydon without parking. These are premium apartments for people who want a certain lifestyle - if you want a terraced house with a driveway or a flat with allocated parking that's a lot cheaper and available in the suburbs.

It's about choosing the property relevant to the lifestyle you intend to conduct. Living in town and city centres is for people who don't wish to own cars.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Unless you live in a rural area (in which case you most likely can charge on the driveway), children should really be walking, cycling or getting the bus to school. The sooner the "school run" stops being a thing the better.

It is amazing how short a distance a parent is prepared to drive for delivery of their child to the school gate (usually on the yellow zig zag lines).
Getting those kids onto a bus is starting them in the right way for a future life of considering public transport (and walking) over the car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the amount I use a car then my car would be stuck in the space for a week or more. That is unless I am prepared to g and get it for no reason other than to move it. I suppose the parallel would be the effort required to go and get petrol in my ICE but I know plenty leave that chore for as long as possible !.

This might need consideration in a development mostly aimed at retirees, but the vast majority of people use their car daily - otherwise there's little point owning one.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Some car parks already have enforcement - if you're in a charging space and aren't plugged in, you get a fine. The act of plugging in is enough extra faff that people will only do so if there aren't any other spaces if they didn't intend to charge.

The other way to do it passively in large car parks e.g. supermarkets is that, aside from disabled bays which should really all have chargers, you put the spaces with chargers further from the entrance, so people will naturally choose the ones without chargers so they don't have to walk as far.

Trouble is plenty of able bodied drivers will find the disabled bays even more tempting.

Then you don't choose to buy/rent a flat in a tower block in central Croydon without parking. These are premium apartments for people who want a certain lifestyle - if you want a terraced house with a driveway or a flat with allocated parking that's a lot cheaper and available in the suburbs.

It's about choosing the property relevant to the lifestyle you intend to conduct. Living in town and city centres is for people who don't wish to own cars.

I am not sure myself but I have been told these premium flats have turned out to be unnatractively small and not necessarily as cheap as one would hope. Word is they are ending up as "social housing" bringing no wealth to Croydon. So perhaps the occupiers can be priced out of car ownership. I have been wondering about exploring more but these blocks are huge and have very little footfall at the entrance. I have seen plenty of lights on at night.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The other way to do it passively in large car parks e.g. supermarkets is that, aside from disabled bays which should really all have chargers, you put the spaces with chargers further from the entrance, so people will naturally choose the ones without chargers so they don't have to walk as far.

Interesting. All the Tesco Extra stores I've visited in the south of England, have all their EV charging area second-closest to their store entrance(s); disabled bays being the closest area to the doors

I did once see a militant ICE owner parked their fossil burner across the EV charging bays at a local Waitrose; so that their car "coincidentally" covered part of all six EV bays...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trouble is plenty of able bodied drivers will find the disabled bays even more tempting.

Then they'll receive a ticket.

I am not sure myself but I have been told these premium flats have turned out to be unnatractively small and not necessarily as cheap as one would hope. Word is they are ending up as "social housing" bringing no wealth to Croydon. So perhaps the occupiers can be priced out of car ownership. I have been wondering about exploring more but these blocks are huge and have very little footfall at the entrance. I have seen plenty of lights on at night.

Either way if you live in central Croydon you do not need a car. Some things may be slightly more convenient with one, but you do not NEED a car if you live and work within Greater London.

 

[johncrossley]

Absolutely wrong. I see huge blocks of flats going up in Croydon and they look to have no parking spaces at all.

But what if there were new terraced houses in the same location? There would be almost no chance of off street parking.

I was really talking about purpose built flats outside of town centres.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But what if there were new terraced houses in the same location? There would be almost no chance of off street parking.

It's kind-of irrelevant because you wouldn't build terraced houses on land of that sort of high value.

 

[AndrewE]

I agree that's the idea, and may work in many places - but some people still need a car to drive outside their home area, or one person in the household commutes by train but the other needs the car more locally, or for the school run, gym, football practice etc.

If you have amazing public transport and cycle lanes, great, but many people don't.

You don't "need" a car for those, it means that you have chosen to live somewhere (or have taken on activities, or a school) that you can't either walk to or get to by active transport.

Part of decarbonisation is personally recognising that our current lifestyles are taking far more resources than the planet can possibly deliver. If you can't fit in 4 or 5 activities for the kids over the weekend without driving them round the area then I would say you are expecting too much! There's a lot to be said for letting them enjoy some boredom.

As a teenager my weekend entertainments were an hour on a bus to school (again) on Saturday morning for a brass band session and back home again, then off out on a bike with my friend, and out with him again on Sunday afternoons. No gym/football/ballet etc. You cut your coat according to your cloth.

 

[Noddy]

I fear you might be right but according to the RAC only 68% of households in England have access to a driveway (44% in London)

Kirstie Allsopp, who I generally disagree with on alot of things, but does know a thing or 2 about houses thinks even that figure is tosh and assumes the RAC methodology is every terraced home that has on road parking, could potentially become a 'driveway'

Also worth noting that flats are just going to keep increasing compared to houses, there's no 2 ways about that, so this percentage will continue to decrease. London is targeted to build 100k a year alone - 99% of which will be flats

The London plan specifies just 20% of parking spaces should have charging points.

I’m so sick of all the talk about flats and terraced housing. I’m reposting this from earlier in the thread (post 3531):

Here a couple of examples:



The stone building is four flats. Also note the brick terraced houses beyond also have their own chargers. [These are social housing]


This brick building is nine flats (there are three more flats and car parking spaces on the other side), each with its own space and charger.

-

If these 99% of flats being built in London have dedicated parking spaces, they will have chargers. It doesn’t matter what the London Plan does or doesn’t say, building regulations in England require that dedicated parking spaces on new AND refurbished buildings subject to building regulations have provision for charging.

 

[johncrossley]

It doesn't actually matter how restricted parking is, as long as what residential parking there is has a charging point. If a new block of flats has no parking and there is no easy parking on street nearby, then they won't have a car.

 

[Noddy]

It doesn't actually matter how restricted parking is, as long as what residential parking there is has a charging point. If a new block of flats has no parking and there is no easy parking on street nearby, then they won't have a car.

Exactly!

 

[HSTEd]

See space. Park in space.
Or:
See space. Consider if someone else might need to recharge their car in it. Park elsewhere.

Human behavioural change, is always the most challenging change to implement.

It is always much easier to solve engineering problems than social ones.

Providing a few million charging points in public car parks will prove much cheaper than remaking society.
And as I noted, we want every possible car connected, we may have spikes of essentially free electricity at relatively short notice.

By the time people find out that cheap electricity is happening and get their car to a charge point, huge amounts of electriicty will have been lost.

 

[stuu]

I agree that's the idea, and may work in many places - but some people still need a car to drive outside their home area, or one person in the household commutes by train but the other needs the car more locally, or for the school run, gym, football practice etc.

If you have amazing public transport and cycle lanes, great, but many people don't.

Quite a lot of flats without parking in areas with controlled parking zones come with the caveat that parking permits aren't issued for that address

 

[jon0844]

You don't "need" a car for those, it means that you have chosen to live somewhere (or have taken on activities, or a school) that you can't either walk to or get to by active transport.

Part of decarbonisation is personally recognising that our current lifestyles are taking far more resources than the planet can possibly deliver. If you can't fit in 4 or 5 activities for the kids over the weekend without driving them round the area then I would say you are expecting too much! There's a lot to be said for letting them enjoy some boredom.

As a teenager my weekend entertainments were an hour on a bus to school (again) on Saturday morning for a brass band session and back home again, then off out on a bike with my friend, and out with him again on Sunday afternoons. No gym/football/ballet etc. You cut your coat according to your cloth.

My son is in a football team and needs to play home and away games on Sunday mornings, which means there are no buses or trains AT ALL for many of the locations. Sadly a car is essential and everyone arrives by car. The only alternative would be a taxi, but besides the cost there's the fact that the taxi will be potentially be driving there or back empty and doing more mileage.

I guess he could not play football and just stay home playing Xbox or something?

Not everyone gets the school they want, and many will have little to no public transport options. My son can use the bus (and does) and once or twice per week his bus home doesn't run - at all - and he's over an hour late.

If you read my posts over the years, I am a strong advocate for people using public transport and cycling etc, but I've always said that many people will need a car some of the time. The key is using the car as little as possible and not always considering it the first option.

I don't think you're going to succeed in telling people they should either move or give up doing things, and just sitting at home instead. In fact, most people are going to react negatively and be even less likely to be willing to consider alternatives.

 

[johncrossley]

Obviously a car can't be essential, because not everybody can drive. Many people don't have a licence for various reasons. Too young. Too old. Too scared to drive. Banned from driving. Don't have the mental capacity to drive. My parents didn't drive. Of course, with so many people having cars these days, it is likely that you can get a lift from someone going the same way if you are going somewhere where a lot of people you know are going.

All modes of transport have limitations. Despite cutbacks etc., public transport still reaches a lot of places. Cars *effectively* can't go into central London at peak times. Well, unless you don't mind getting up at 5am and paying through the nose for parking and congestion charge.

Suppose a mode of transport was invented that could get from London to Aberdeen in 5 minutes for 5p. Wouldn't that sound amazing? But what if the environmental damage and social cost of that new mode of transport was equivalent to driving 1 million miles? Then that would be unacceptable to almost everybody, but some people wouldn't care. There is a sliding scale to what people find acceptable. It just depends where you draw the line. Some people think owning and using a car is wrong so they don't do it on principle.

 

[jon0844]

I think this thread assumes there are people that do think a car is essential, even if it technically isn't. Far better to have an electric car with zero emissions at the point of use, and then try and encourage people to use it less.

I suspect a conversation about whether anyone should have a car is probably for another thread. I really don't think we're going to succeed in convincing people that a car isn't necessary - and surely if everyone did, we wouldn't have taxis or getting a lift (as they'd have got rid of their car too, no?).

 

[Bald Rick]

Especially in the summer when a future renewable system will likely be flooded with electricity around lunchtime.

That ‘future’ is now. Just last week, Solar was generating 5GW. This is the end of November, not Summer. On a sunny day next summer it will be generating 13-14GW, and on top of this there is loads of spare solar power across the channel too. I expect there to be negtive power prices in the middle of the day on any sunny day that has above average windspeeds from April onwards.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Such restrictions are well meaning, but people still buy cars and then just park illegally, on verges, bits of grass, near junctions etc - causing all sorts of problems for residents and putting pedestrians and cyclists in danger etc.

Sounds like we need better enforcement then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds like we need better enforcement then.

I have wondered if the best way to go with parking would be to move to a system whereby you can only park where it says you can, rather than the default of that you can park where you want unless it says you can't (and subject to a few other provisions on e.g. not being obstructive). It would be a huge job to roll that out nationally, but there's certainly a good case for all new housing developments to be Controlled Parking Zones, where you can implement that restriction on a specified area with signs at the entrance and exit.

 

[cactustwirly]

Then they'll receive a ticket.



Either way if you live in central Croydon you do not need a car. Some things may be slightly more convenient with one, but you do not NEED a car if you live and work within Greater London.

What happens if you live in Croydon and work at somewhere like Gatwick.
You need a car to get to work for the early and late shifts

 

[PGAT]

What happens if you live in Croydon and work at somewhere like Gatwick.
You need a car to get to work for the early and late shifts

Get the train. They run all night.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Get the train. They run all night.

Indeed, xx06 all night.

However, if you would be one of the very few people who actually did need a car in London, such as certain disabled people, you'd just not choose to live in one of these blocks, which are intended for non-car-owners.

Goodness knows why one would choose to live in central Croydon if one worked in Gatwick, though. It's expensive and not very nice. You can live in a nicer place much closer for less money.

 

[jon0844]

Sounds like we need better enforcement then.

Yeah, totally. Sadly my local borough council has a tiny number of officers to patrol. Usually one for the main town centre and I think about 3 or maybe 4 cars to allow them to 'patrol' the many estates with controlled parking. I know this because of where they park at the end of the day (and, yes, they only work office hours so people parking overnight - which is obviously when most people fill roads and verges etc - will never have any issues).

People park illegally on my road every single day and I've not seen a ticket issued for five years or more. I guess it's not on their route. The DVLA do come and clamp vehicles periodically though, which is something.

I suppose it depends on who gets the money, but if the council got all the money from parking charges then I'm amazed they don't recruit more people - but maybe they're concerned about the negative publicity. Sadly FB will show that anyone unlucky enough to get fined will think it's disgusting, the council are jobsworths, and if there's no parking then 'where are they supposed to park?'... and usually have more support than people saying 'don't have a car if you can't park it'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah, totally. Sadly my local borough council has a tiny number of officers to patrol. Usually one for the main town centre and I think about 3 or maybe 4 cars to allow them to 'patrol' the many estates with controlled parking.

People park illegally on my road every single day and I've not seen a ticket issued for five years or more. I guess it's not on their route. The DVLA do come and clamp vehicles periodically though, which is something.

The way to do it would probably be to allow for a bit of vigilanteism and put a system in place where people could submit photos of bad parking for tickets to be sent out. There are plenty of "curtain twitchers" about who would do such enforcement for free, and Police forces already often offer this for submissions from dashcams/helmet cams, with several prominent cyclists on Twitter/X who submit videos of mobile phone use in cars and get lots of convictions.

 

[HSTEd]

That ‘future’ is now. Just last week, Solar was generating 5GW. This is the end of November, not Summer. On a sunny day next summer it will be generating 13-14GW, and on top of this there is loads of spare solar power across the channel too. I expect there to be negtive power prices in the middle of the day on any sunny day that has above average windspeeds from April onwards.

It depends on your definition of 'flood' I suppose.
I think once regular negative energy prices are established they will be more or less mitigated out of existance by people with immersion heaters (there are many gigawatts of those available even with the rise of combi boilers).

But eventually the installed PV base will overwhelm all possible uses, unless we really do build 50+GW of electrolysis or similar.

 

[LYradial]

The thread title is switch to electric vehicles, do we really need electric cars with their £1000 sound systems, touchscreen with satnav, audio, phone dock, automatic boot opening, fancy stitching on the upholstery etc etc when the school run, the trip to the supermarket or hospital or garden centre etc could be covered by a reasonably speedy electric golf caddy.

park in the supermarket, automatic number plate recognition, plug it in, pay for your shopping and 10kw charge at the same time, drive home.

cost for this disposable household item, well not much more than a couple of TVs and a latest iPhone

i shall go away and hide

 

[AndrewE]

But eventually the installed PV base will overwhelm all possible uses, unless we really do build 50+GW of electrolysis or similar.

that's coming too... https://www.energy-storage.news/mas...orage-in-uk-and-ireland-co-location-emerging/ says we already have 20GWh of battery storage submitted "with a large pipeline to follow." I think that's just big commercial set-ups, so it's possible that domestic batteries might double that (can't find a figure for domestic installs.) There are also several big pumped-storage systems on the Great Glen which are ready to go.
Electrolysis is pretty crap, but I think compressed air storage etc will take off, so to speak!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2024 ==

The thread title is switch to electric vehicles, do we really need electric cars with their £1000 sound systems, touchscreen with satnav, audio, phone dock, automatic boot opening, fancy stitching on the upholstery etc etc when the school run, the trip to the supermarket or hospital or garden centre etc could be covered by a reasonably speedy electric golf caddy.

park in the supermarket, automatic number plate recognition, plug it in, pay for your shopping and 10kw charge at the same time, drive home.

cost for this disposable household item, well not much more than a couple of TVs and a latest iPhone

i shall go away and hide

I agree that we don't, active travel needs to be massively increased, but one good thing would be if vehicle-to-grid power flow became widespread as it provides another peak-shaving option.