UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[AM9]

Can you explain what "increasingly uncomfortable" means.

Less freedom to drive through urban areas owing to zero emissions zones.
Higher fuel costs as selling petrol becomes uneconomical for distributors.
A growing shortage of replacement parts for ageing IC vehicles.
... to mention just three issues.

 

[DC1989]

Business managers will always try to blame external things for their own failures. I used worked for a company that closed in 2022 - they blamed brexit. Brexit made things harder for them...sure, but it wasn't the reason they failed.

If the UK said - we are completely scrapping any EV requirements nothing would change that much, the market IS moving to EV's. The best it would do is delay the inevitable for a few years.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Less freedom to drive through urban areas owing to zero emissions zones.
Higher fuel costs as selling petrol becomes uneconomical for distributors.
A growing shortage of replacement parts for ageing IC vehicles.
... to mention just three issues.

I would add to that the effect EV drivers also face.
Obscure school roads thus incurring a tax fine for enterng inadvertantly.
Eventually road pricing will come to all and I highly doubt the tax on fuel (petrol & diesel) will be dropped, instead ICE drivers will pay both.

On the other hand, sadly, I am getting more tempted to drive just to avoid the fair ground ride of a few recent bus journeys and the diagnosis of permanent damage as a result of being thrown down the stairs on an electric bus back in January.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2024 ==

Business managers will always try to blame external things for their own failures. I used worked for a company that closed in 2022 - they blamed brexit. Brexit made things harder for them...sure, but it wasn't the reason they failed.

If the UK said - we are completely scrapping any EV requirements nothing would change that much, the market IS moving to EV's. The best it would do is delay the inevitable for a few years.

I could re-word that as not pushing change harder than both the customers and the suppliers can manage. Push hard enough and people will start to push back. Instead it feels like decision makers think - never mind someone else can pay for it.

 

[DC1989]

I could re-word that as not pushing change harder than both the customers and the suppliers can manage. Push hard enough and people will start to push back. Instead it feels like decision makers think - never mind someone else can pay for it.

Yeah I definitely feel that there are nowhere near enough public chargers, unless you have a drive I can see why most people would say 'no thanks' . I've written about this multiple times in this thread and it doesn't seem to be getting any better (At least in my little corner of London)

According the Zapmap within 1mile of my flat there are 16 public chargers (28 if we include Tesla's). None of which by the way are in a place suitable for 'passive charging' ie plug it in and go to the cinema, go shopping, go for a meal etc.

The population of that area is around 100k people. At least 20k cars probably. My flats are relatively modern (construction ended 2018) and there are zero car charging points. ZERO! There's not one single electric car in a modern block of flats with over 1,000people (Only 200 allocated parking spaces but still)

We on the rail forum probably know this better than anyone. Build it and they will come. But we ain't building !!

 

[jon0844]

28 chargers within a mile doesn't sound that bad (I assume the Tesla ones are now open to everyone?). Tesla has time of use charging so while it might not suit everyone, if I couldn't charge at home and it was a mile or less to travel then I might go there at midnight every now and then to get cheap charging (I think they can drop to 20-30p per kWh), while sitting in the car watching Netflix or YouTube.

I suppose the next thing ICE owners are going to say is that they always go to bed at 10pm and so this would be ridiculous and why should people want to charge at unsocial hours, but people will do things to save money, just like I always drive off a motorway to find cheaper petrol than fill up at a services - but clearly some people will pay 10-20p a litre more for the convenience.

When supermarkets were open 24 hours, I also liked to shop in the small hours for the lack of customers and if I could still do that today, while letting the car charge in the car park for 20 minutes, I'd do that.

 

[Class 317]

The main reason car companies are seeing difficulties is the decline in new car sales which is happening across Europe and not just in the UK.

Ev sales are the market which is expanding but not enough to make up for the contraction of the demand for ICE cars.

Add to this a lower market share in EV's amongst legacy car makers and you can see why legacy car makers are struggling.

Lower new car sales are being attributed to a few reasons by different films including people replacing cars less frequently because they WFH and use them less, cost of living etc not really related to EV's.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lower new car sales are being attributed to a few reasons by different films including people replacing cars less frequently because they WFH and use them less, cost of living etc not really related to EV's.

The utterly ludicrous prices of new cars also can't be helping.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2024 ==

I suppose the next thing ICE owners are going to say is that they always go to bed at 10pm and so this would be ridiculous and why should people want to charge at unsocial hours, but people will do things to save money, just like I always drive off a motorway to find cheaper petrol than fill up at a services - but clearly some people will pay 10-20p a litre more for the convenience.

I think people who use those objections need to look wider. Every single car owner drives their car somewhere and parks it while they do something - that's the whole point of owning a car, to drive it somewhere in order to do something else (aside from classics, but unless you own a classic milk float classic EVs are a way off). Thus if we can make charger availability at a reasonable price* widely available at those places - supermarkets, gyms, workplaces and the likes - pretty much everyone will find a suitable charging option if they live in a terraced house or flat where it isn't feasible to charge at home.

* I think we will need a "charging price cap" to ensure those prices are kept reasonable.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, destination charging is more sensible than the concept of driving to a place purely to refill a car, often paying a fortune for the supposed convenience.

Most EV owners won't ever need to go anywhere specific to charge so the argument that it takes a few minutes to fill up will seem odd when an EV owner takes seconds to plug in when parking and unplug when leaving.

 

[DC1989]

The utterly ludicrous prices of new cars also can't be helping.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2024 ==



I think people who use those objections need to look wider. Every single car owner drives their car somewhere and parks it while they do something - that's the whole point of owning a car, to drive it somewhere in order to do something else (aside from classics, but unless you own a classic milk float classic EVs are a way off). Thus if we can make charger availability at a reasonable price* widely available at those places - supermarkets, gyms, workplaces and the likes - pretty much everyone will find a suitable charging option if they live in a terraced house or flat where it isn't feasible to charge at home.

* I think we will need a "charging price cap" to ensure those prices are kept reasonable.

Exactly right - the priority should be to install them in every company car park, every retail car park, every local council car park, every park car park etc. And not just install 4 chargers in a car park with 800 spaces, fully install them at almost every space

I work on a industrial estate, there are no chargers. There are no plans for chargers. Management companies of these sort of sites are not going to do this off their own bat, they need to be made to do it or paid to do it

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly right - the priority should be to install them in every company car park, every retail car park, every local council car park, every park car park etc. And not just install 4 chargers in a car park with 800 spaces, fully install them at almost every space

As people will realistically only need to charge about once a week on average, about a third of the spaces will probably do. Or you could put slow chargers in every space in some cases (e.g. work car parks where people park all day). It'd also be possible to have electronic control of such chargers - if the grid connection won't allow all to charge at once, have a socket in every space (thus no fighting for one) but rotate the load.

 

[AM9]

I would add to that the effect EV drivers also face.
...
Eventually road pricing will come to all and I highly doubt the tax on fuel (petrol & diesel) will be dropped, instead ICE drivers will pay both.

Well of course, - however EVs use the roads, they won't be using hydrocarbon fuel to provde local pollution and add to global CO2 levels. Yet another stick for removing unnecessary IC vehicles from the UK's environment.

 

[HSTEd]

As people will realistically only need to charge about once a week on average, about a third of the spaces will probably do. Or you could put slow chargers in every space in some cases (e.g. work car parks where people park all day). It'd also be possible to have electronic control of such chargers - if the grid connection won't allow all to charge at once, have a socket in every space (thus no fighting for one) but rotate the load.

My own academic research (system decarbonisation is my field after all!) would indicate that the more chargers the better.
The ultimate objective would be to engrain a habit of plugging in the electric car whenever possible, so that electric cars are available to absorb gluts of renewable electricity whenever they appear.

Especially in the summer when a future renewable system will likely be flooded with electricity around lunchtime.

That would tend to reduce overall system costs, and thus the average price that electricity must ultimately be sold at.

I think the overall objective would be to put a car charger on every space, even if the current limitation functionality of the charging standard is required.
There is no need to rotate the load, as electric cars are required to obey a PWM signal on one of the pins of the common charging plug standards and throttle current draw accordingly. You can smoothly throttle charging load all the way down to the low value of 1.38kW if needed, and have it dynamically respond to the number of cars actually charging at any given time, with no stop-starting.

 

[renegademaster]

In reality the government isn't going to pay to put a charger in every parking spot , so I suspect to the 20% of people who can't charge at home, I expect the government response is going to be "let the supermarket fast chargers gouge you" or "take the bus"

 

[AM9]

My own academic research (system decarbonisation is my field after all!) would indicate that the more chargers the better.
The ultimate objective would be to engrain a habit of plugging in the electric car whenever possible, so that electric cars are available to absorb gluts of renewable electricity whenever they appear.

Especially in the summer when a future renewable system will likely be flooded with electricity around lunchtime.

That would tend to reduce overall system costs, and thus the average price that electricity must ultimately be sold at.

I think the overall objective would be to put a car charger on every space, even if the current limitation functionality of the charging standard is required.
There is no need to rotate the load, as electric cars are required to obey a PWM signal on one of the pins of the common charging plug standards and throttle current draw accordingly. You can smoothly throttle charging load all the way down to the low value of 1.38kW if needed, and have it dynamically respond to the number of cars actually charging at any given time, with no stop-starting.

The fact that a charging site, be it single purpose or a general parking location, can have diversity charging designed into the system allowing the available charging power capacity, the actual industrial cost of electricity to the site proprietors, and the demand at the time to arrive at a variable tariff. Charges can then be based on the priority requested, the average charge rate (e.g. top up or fast charge), and the cost to the supplier. This would allow management of the demand, - i.e. some drivers might come back later, or accept a minimal top-up and others would be able to pay for immediate high power charging. Costs could be presented in a way similar to some TOCs' mixing desks, where tickets cost more on certain trains and certain ticket types sell out.
I think the majority of users would soon sort out a pattern of use that suits them.

 

[DC1989]

In reality the government isn't going to pay to put a charger in every parking spot , so I suspect to the 20% of people who can't charge at home, I expect the government response is going to be "let the supermarket fast chargers gouge you" or "take the bus"

I fear you might be right but according to the RAC only 68% of households in England have access to a driveway (44% in London)

Kirstie Allsopp, who I generally disagree with on alot of things, but does know a thing or 2 about houses thinks even that figure is tosh and assumes the RAC methodology is every terraced home that has on road parking, could potentially become a 'driveway'

Also worth noting that flats are just going to keep increasing compared to houses, there's no 2 ways about that, so this percentage will continue to decrease. London is targeted to build 100k a year alone - 99% of which will be flats

 

[AM9]

I fear you might be right but according to the RAC only 68% of households in England have access to a driveway (44% in London)

Kirstie Allsopp, who I generally disagree with on alot of things, but does know a thing or 2 about houses thinks even that figure is tosh and assumes the RAC methodology is every terraced home that has on road parking, could potentially become a 'driveway'

Also worth noting that flats are just going to keep increasing compared to houses, there's no 2 ways about that, so this percentage will continue to decrease. London is targeted to build 100k a year alone - 99% of which will be flats

Thnere's no reason why new flats cannot have allocated parking for residents and a shared energy charging system.

 

[johncrossley]

Flats are more likely to have parking than a terraced house as they nearly always have off street parking.

 

[JamesT]

Thnere's no reason why new flats cannot have allocated parking for residents and a shared energy charging system.

When you say allocated parking, are you envisaging a space that a resident can say is "theirs", or merely that a section of car parking is reserved for residents?
If the former, that's a bit tricky when there aren't as many space as dwellings, e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-63978447

A total of 402 homes as well as a new hotel with a gym and a cafe will be built at a site off London Road, near Thornhill Park and Ride, in Oxford.
...
A total of 95 car-parking spaces will be part of the development and there will also be provision to park more than 900 bicycles.

 

[DC1989]

Thnere's no reason why new flats cannot have allocated parking for residents and a shared energy charging system.

The London plan specifies just 20% of parking spaces should have charging points.

Most new developments in London are encouraged to be car free too (Aside for some blue badge spaces) A new development approved recently by me has 1,400 apartments with 138 spaces (mainly disabled) of which 20% electric car charging spaces. So 28 chargers for a development of 3,500 people...that won't be built well into the ICE ban !

 

[Peter Sarf]

Thnere's no reason why new flats cannot have allocated parking for residents and a shared energy charging system.

+

Flats are more likely to have parking than a terraced house as they nearly always have off street parking.

Absolutely wrong. I see huge blocks of flats going up in Croydon and they look to have no parking spaces at all.

I have read that a standard is 10% of spaces for the number of flats. Even if all these spaces have a charger is still only 10%. Made worse by the fact that a charged car is not going to magically vacate the very scarce space.

Opposite my home there have been ten flats built on what was an area of garages. There are nine spaces which is quite good but only one charger for ten flats. We have noticed an increase in cars parked in the road since the flats were completed. So I think anyone believing one space per (one or two bed) flat is enough is being unrealistic - unfortunately it is a lot less than one per flat in most developments.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely wrong. I see huge blocks of flats going up in Croydon and they look to have no parking spaces at all.

These flats are designed to be occupied by non-car-owners. Who needs a car when you live five minutes from a railway station with a train every 30 seconds to London and to lots of other places and shopping on your doorstep? They are aimed at largely younger people (who are going off cars) who want a specific type of lifestyle.

 

[Peter Sarf]

These flats are designed to be occupied by non-car-owners. Who needs a car when you live five minutes from a railway station with a train every 30 seconds to London and to lots of other places and shopping on your doorstep? They are aimed at largely younger people (who are going off cars) who want a specific type of lifestyle.

Correct - these flats are as close to East Croydon as you can get and within walking distance by my standards from the town centre.

I do hope the young are going off cars. Lets hope the main supermarkets will then be tempted to move back into central Croydon. Plus all the other useful shops that have drifted out of town where car parking is made easier for the only form of transport planners seem to accept the existence of.

 

[jon0844]

As people will realistically only need to charge about once a week on average, about a third of the spaces will probably do. Or you could put slow chargers in every space in some cases (e.g. work car parks where people park all day). It'd also be possible to have electronic control of such chargers - if the grid connection won't allow all to charge at once, have a socket in every space (thus no fighting for one) but rotate the load.

Yes, I'd imagine the best option being power to every space but a way to manage demand so as not to be overloaded, with the assumption that while there might be power available a large number of people won't bother/need to charge on every visit. Then upgrade the power supply as time goes on if needed.

I know there's a car park at the NEC in Birmingham with loads of slow/trickle chargers for attendees to exhibitions/events, so it is already being done.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2024 ==

I think the overall objective would be to put a car charger on every space, even if the current limitation functionality of the charging standard is required.
There is no need to rotate the load, as electric cars are required to obey a PWM signal on one of the pins of the common charging plug standards and throttle current draw accordingly. You can smoothly throttle charging load all the way down to the low value of 1.38kW if needed, and have it dynamically respond to the number of cars actually charging at any given time, with no stop-starting.

That's perfect then!

 

[Peter Sarf]

As people will realistically only need to charge about once a week on average, about a third of the spaces will probably do. Or you could put slow chargers in every space in some cases (e.g. work car parks where people park all day). It'd also be possible to have electronic control of such chargers - if the grid connection won't allow all to charge at once, have a socket in every space (thus no fighting for one) but rotate the load.

Makes sense for all spaces to have a charger because people will not want to pop out and see if their car is charged enough and then move it to a bay with no charger. This will be especially true if the car user is charging the car in their sleep so to speak.

 

[jon0844]

In reality the government isn't going to pay to put a charger in every parking spot , so I suspect to the 20% of people who can't charge at home, I expect the government response is going to be "let the supermarket fast chargers gouge you" or "take the bus"

How much would a large quantity of relatively low-power AC chargers cost to the trade? We might not see older car parks being fitted out but I'd expect newer car parks to get power as standard in the coming years - at least car parks where people are expected to stay for a while, like shopping centres or leisure parks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Makes sense for all spaces to have a charger because people will not want to pop out and see if their car is charged enough and then move it to a bay with no charger. This will be especially true if the car user is charging the car in their sleep so to speak.

The thought was more that you won't need to charge daily, so you will only choose a bay with a charger if intending to charge.

 

[greyman42]

If the UK said - we are completely scrapping any EV requirements nothing would change that much, the market IS moving to EV's. The best it would do is delay the inevitable for a few years.

Then why not scrap the requirements and let nature take its course?

 

[jon0844]

I fear you might be right but according to the RAC only 68% of households in England have access to a driveway (44% in London)

Kirstie Allsopp, who I generally disagree with on alot of things, but does know a thing or 2 about houses thinks even that figure is tosh and assumes the RAC methodology is every terraced home that has on road parking, could potentially become a 'driveway'

Also worth noting that flats are just going to keep increasing compared to houses, there's no 2 ways about that, so this percentage will continue to decrease. London is targeted to build 100k a year alone - 99% of which will be flats

While your car will always come home with you, if you have destination charging then you basically charge it when you use the car to go anywhere (unless it's only for the school run with you never actually stopping anywhere else) so that may well work for you. Just keep the car topped up at work, leisure, shopping, the gym etc.. so you won't ever need to charge at home (funnily enough, just how people don't fill up their petrol or diesel cars at home either).

Assuming we get some competition when it comes to charging prices (which is happening to a degree now) then people will potentially go shopping where charging is cheaper, so there's an incentive to offer a good price. Places like Westfield may opt to offer free charging or a heavy discount if you stay for a minimum time (thus being likely to spend more inside, especially as you're getting 'free charging'). I am sure retailers will see the benefit in bribing you to come to them instead of someone else.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The thought was more that you won't need to charge daily, so you will only choose a bay with a charger if intending to charge.

See space. Park in space.
Or:
See space. Consider if someone else might need to recharge their car in it. Park elsewhere.

Human behavioural change, is always the most challenging change to implement.

 

[jon81uk]

unless it's only for the school run with you never actually stopping anywhere else)

Unless you live in a rural area (in which case you most likely can charge on the driveway), children should really be walking, cycling or getting the bus to school. The sooner the "school run" stops being a thing the better.