UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[WelshBluebird]

Who the hell commutes 400 miles a day - that's literally Swansea to Canary Wharf and back in one day. Let alone driving it! Even if you were able to keep a 70mph average that's almost 6 hours a day driving on top of your actual job. Apart form being utterly insane, damaging to your own health and being dangerous to others, we must also be talking about a tiny tiny percentage of people.

 

[bspahh]

Who the hell commutes 400 miles a day - that's literally Swansea to Canary Wharf and back in one day. Let alone driving it! Even if you were able to keep a 70mph average that's almost 6 hours a day driving on top of your actual job. Apart form being utterly insane, damaging to your own health and being dangerous to others, we must also be talking about a tiny tiny percentage of people.

I'm not saying its common, or a good idea, but it is possible.

The Bradford-Reading guy was in 1996. I remember he had a diesel Citroen BX.
There are some other long commutes in this article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25551393 with one driving from Porthcawl to Watford (181 miles each way).

 

[jon0844]

It might be possible but it's still insane. The cost in fuel and wear and tear would surely make it more logical to have a hotel or rent a bedsit for the days you need to travel so far. An EV if charged mostly at home and work could save a fortune, mind, even with the odd mid journey top up.

I definitely agree it would be dangerous and a train driver might occasionally have a long drive on a diagram but they're not allowed to live so far away that they spend half their day driving to and from work. I suspect anyone doing 4.5 hrs constant driving probably doesn't have much else on that diagram for that day because the railway has studied things like fatigue from experience.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I'm not saying its common, or a good ide, but it is possible.

The Bradford-Reading guy was in 1996. I remember he had a diesel Citroen BX.
There are some other long commutes in this article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25551393 with one driving from Porthcawl to Watford (181 miles each way).

Some of the quotes in that are utterly terrifying and could well explain why there are so many road accidents if peolle treat driving like that. Taking conference calls when driving is an absolute recipe for literal disaster.

 

[ABB125]

I'm not saying its common, or a good idea, but it is possible.

The Bradford-Reading guy was in 1996. I remember he had a diesel Citroen BX.
There are some other long commutes in this article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25551393 with one driving from Porthcawl to Watford (181 miles each way).

I rather like the cross-channel one. "I have on car in France, and another in England"

 

[Bald Rick]

I drove London to Blackpool non stop. 4 hours drive.

Yep I’ve done that (well, just north of London to Blackpool) non stop several times. I’m looking forward to doing it in my EV when it arrives.

I recently spoke to my mechanic about EV
He said don't get EV, They're Bull****

Interestingly, I spoke to my mechanic last week about an ICE car (6 years old) just as I handed him £1700 for repairs to various parts of its fuel and exhaust system. I said I wasnt buying another ICE and was about to buy EV. “I don’t blame you” was his response.

I'd have been shocked if he didn't say that to be honest.

I was too if I’m honest!

Roughly whereabouts in England are you? I have never met anyone with a commute that long, longest I’ve heard of was 50 miles each way mostly by train and that was the limit to what the employer would allow.

I have commuted fairly long distance for much of my working life. My very first full time job was 70 miles each way, sometimes by car, sometimes by train. Then Four years W Midlands to London. Two years commuting between London and York (3-4 times a week). Free train travel helped of couse

 

[jon0844]

Interestingly, I spoke to my mechanic last week about an ICE car (6 years old) just as I handed him £1700 for repairs to various parts of its fuel and exhaust system. I said I wasnt buying another ICE and was about to buy EV. “I don’t blame you” was his response.

I realise this is anecdotal but when I got my car serviced recently (almost £300 for a 1.2 litre petrol car that had done 4,000 miles since its last service - and that was an interim service!) the person at the desk, who I've known some time, told me he'd just got a Citroen e-c4 and was loving it and saying how much cheaper it will be to service. Apart from the fact he'd obviously get mates rates, the point was that there's almost nothing to do.

I think most people in the car industry know EVs are the future, but wouldn't necessarily want to admit it - especially if it will hurt their revenue. The smart ones will be one step ahead and preparing for change instead of trying to convince people to stick with ICE. Obviously there will be the need for car mechanics to work on ICE vehicles for some years yet.

 

[Energy]

I’m looking forward to doing it in my EV when it arrives.

I think I’ve asked before but I can’t remember… which EV did you go for?

Free train travel helped of couse

Must be a nice perk of working in the railways

 

[rangersac]

I realise this is anecdotal but when I got my car serviced recently (almost £300 for a 1.2 litre petrol car that had done 4,000 miles since its last service - and that was an interim service!) the person at the desk, who I've known some time, told me he'd just got a Citroen e-c4 and was loving it and saying how much cheaper it will be to service. Apart from the fact he'd obviously get mates rates, the point was that there's almost nothing to do.

I think most people in the car industry know EVs are the future, but wouldn't necessarily want to admit it - especially if it will hurt their revenue. The smart ones will be one step ahead and preparing for change instead of trying to convince people to stick with ICE. Obviously there will be the need for car mechanics to work on ICE vehicles for some years yet.

My mechanic is a Euro vehicle specialist who has seen the light and now mainly deals with EVs. He openly admits that he'll have to service three times the number of cars to make money, but he also says he has far fewer parts to keep inventory for, and as a consequence he rents his garage out and does most of his servicing as a mobile unit.

The difference in servicing costs is pretty impressive. I've run EVs for the past six years and have had them serviced once a year just to keep the service log up to date, and realistically for most of these services they didn't actually need anything doing.. If I was running an ICE car given the km I drive I would be servicing it every six months.

Leaving aside tyres and wiper blades the total list of replacement items is as follows:
2 x cabin air filters, these are available online and I've fitted them myself in 20 minutes each times thanks to Youtube. 20 quid each
1.4 litres of reduction gear box fluid x 2
Brake bleeds x 2

A once a year 'minor' service which is basically change wiper blades, rotate the wheels, fill up the washer reservoir and check everything is 50 quid
A 'major' service which is the reduction gear oil change and a brake bleed is around 100 quid.

 

[E27007]

My mechanic is a Euro vehicle specialist who has seen the light and now mainly deals with EVs. He openly admits that he'll have to service three times the number of cars to make money, but he also says he has far fewer parts to keep inventory for, and as a consequence he rents his garage out and does most of his servicing as a mobile unit.

The difference in servicing costs is pretty impressive. I've run EVs for the past six years and have had them serviced once a year just to keep the service log up to date, and realistically for most of these services they didn't actually need anything doing.. If I was running an ICE car given the km I drive I would be servicing it every six months.

Leaving aside tyres and wiper blades the total list of replacement items is as follows:
2 x cabin air filters, these are available online and I've fitted them myself in 20 minutes each times thanks to Youtube. 20 quid each
1.4 litres of reduction gear box fluid x 2
Brake bleeds x 2

A once a year 'minor' service which is basically change wiper blades, rotate the wheels, fill up the washer reservoir and check everything is 50 quid
A 'major' service which is the reduction gear oil change and a brake bleed is around 100 quid.

Those prices are very low as you are using an independent outlet, £50 is the cost of an M.o.T inspection
Do you have the servicing prices charged by a main dealer with a franchise for your car?

 

[jon0844]

I know people on an MG group that say they're paying around £60 for an annual service on the MG4. That's a main dealer, although some people have also pointed out that some dealers are quoting far more. Buyer beware and all that.

 

[dcbwhaley]

I think most people in the car industry know EVs are the future, but wouldn't necessarily want to admit it - especially if it will hurt their revenue. The smart ones will be one step ahead and preparing for change instead of trying to convince people to stick with ICE. Obviously there will be the need for car mechanics to work on ICE vehicles for some years yet.

Reminds me of when I bought my first (and only) new car in 1970: Citroen 2CV
A number of local garages said that they didn't work on foreign cars.
The smart ones did and survived.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2024 ==

A once a year 'minor' service which is basically change wiper blades, rotate the wheels, fill up the washer reservoir and check everything is 50 quid
A 'major' service which is the reduction gear oil change and a brake bleed is around 100 quid.

My ICE which does about 2000 miles a year costs about £200 for its once a year service. Saving £50 a year on servicing is not enough to convince me change. Nor is saving £200 in fuel. Especially when there is an upfront cost of nigh on £1000 to install a home charger

 

[rangersac]

Those prices are very low as you are using an independent outlet, £50 is the cost of an M.o.T inspection
Do you have the servicing prices charged by a main dealer with a franchise for your car?

No, because there's no more sure fire way to burn money than taking your car to a dealership for servicing.

My ICE which does about 2000 miles a year costs about £200 for its once a year service. Saving £50 a year on servicing is not enough to convince me change. Nor is saving £200 in fuel. Especially when there is an upfront cost of nigh on £1000 to install a home charger

I do more like 12,000 miles a year so my savings are considerably more substantial on servicing and fuel costs

 

[Bletchleyite]

My ICE which does about 2000 miles a year costs about £200 for its once a year service. Saving £50 a year on servicing is not enough to convince me change. Nor is saving £200 in fuel. Especially when there is an upfront cost of nigh on £1000 to install a home charger

2K miles per year is a very low mileage, almost to the point that one could argue car ownership not to be worthwhile at all if some local journeys can be substituted with bicycle or bus/train/tram (taxis for everything would be costly). If most local journeys aren't done by car and that's just a few holiday type trips, hire would be better, almost certainly.

Average mileage is nearer 10K.

 

[Bald Rick]

2K miles per year is a very low mileage, almost to the point that one could argue car ownership not to be worthwhile at all if some local journeys can be substituted with bicycle or bus/train/tram (taxis for everything would be costly). If most local journeys aren't done by car and that's just a few holiday type trips, hire would be better, almost certainly.

Average mileage is nearer 10K.

Nearer 10k is technically correct, but average mileage has been falling steadily for years. It was also affected by Covid, but is now in the region of 7000 miles / year.

 

[jon0844]

Reminds me of when I bought my first (and only) new car in 1970: Citroen 2CV
A number of local garages said that they didn't work on foreign cars.
The smart ones did and survived.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2024 ==



My ICE which does about 2000 miles a year costs about £200 for its once a year service. Saving £50 a year on servicing is not enough to convince me change. Nor is saving £200 in fuel. Especially when there is an upfront cost of nigh on £1000 to install a home charger

Would you need a home charger if the car was parked up overnight? You could use a regular wall socket that will still be ample to give enough range overnight given the mileage you say you do.

Why charge faster when you clearly won't need to?

 

[Bald Rick]

I think I’ve asked before but I can’t remember… which EV did you go for?

I haven‘t, yet, as I absolutely detest buying cars almost as much as I detest selling them.

Also, I ideally want to wait another year or so for more big discounts (which are coming).

However Mrs BR is getting twitchy, so investigations are underway.

 

[Energy]

I haven‘t, yet, as I absolutely detest buying cars almost as much as I detest selling them.

Also, I ideally want to wait another year or so for more big discounts (which are coming).

However Mrs BR is getting twitchy, so investigations are underway.

Ahh, I read your message like you'd ordered and were waiting for delivery. I presume you are going used if you're waiting for discounts?

 

[jon0844]

Ahh, I read your message like you'd ordered and were waiting for delivery. I presume you are going used if you're waiting for discounts?

I think we're going to see new EVs being cheaper next year, but that will of course impact second hand values too.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ahh, I read your message like you'd ordered and were waiting for delivery. I presume you are going used if you're waiting for discounts?

Always used, as buying a brand new car is the greatest act of philanthropy an ‘ordinary’ person can do, essentially giving the second owner a huge discount.

And whilst I have never bought new in the DVLA sense, I have bought 2 cars with delivery mileage only!

 

[HSTEd]

It will be interesting to see what strategy BYD adopts with regards pricing in the UK.

They supposedly have cars piling up in China so they may chase volume, or they may price marginally lower than competitors and get huge margins but at lower volume.

In theory they could breakeven selling their cheapest model at ~£22,000 or so, including shipping from China.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2024 ==

My ICE which does about 2000 miles a year costs about £200 for its once a year service. Saving £50 a year on servicing is not enough to convince me change. Nor is saving £200 in fuel. Especially when there is an upfront cost of nigh on £1000 to install a home charger

If you are only doing 2000 miles a year, the only charger you need is a 13A plug.

 

[E27007]

It will be interesting to see what strategy BYD adopts with regards pricing in the UK.

They supposedly have cars piling up in China so they may chase volume, or they may price marginally lower than competitors and get huge margins but at lower volume.

In theory they could breakeven selling their cheapest model at ~£22,000 or so, including shipping from China.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2024 ==

The pricing strategy may be influenced by the Govt through the placing of import tariffs.
BYD has stated they could sell a ZEV in the USA with a price tag of $10,000.

News, BYD Seagull $10,000

President Biden is to quadruple an import tax on Chinese ZEVs from 25% to 100%.

The Eu is set to follow suite with less severe tariffs, I suppose the UK will fall into line to keep the peace with the EU, the UK imports many German manufactured cars , and we do not wish to see those assembly plants closing down.

White House set to quadruple Chinese ZEV import tariff

The people who pay those import tariffs are not the car makers, it is the people who pay their hard-earned cash to buy the vehicles

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2024 ==

EU car makers have a lot to fear from BYD.
Checking the specification for the battery pack of the BYD Dolphin a £25,000 ZEV, with a range of 200+ miles, the battery warranty is for 200,000 miles / 75% capacity.

BYD ZEV technical specification

 

[jon0844]

Some EU states aren't best pleased about these tariffs and triggering a trade war that will impact European businesses as well as citizens now paying more and potentially encouraging native companies to just put up prices also.

I wonder if the UK will be more sensible on this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some EU states aren't best pleased about these tariffs and triggering a trade war that will impact European businesses as well as citizens now paying more and potentially encouraging native companies to just put up prices also.

I wonder if the UK will be more sensible on this?

I hope so. European manufacturers are taking the absolute mick on prices at the moment - I mean a new Vauxhall Astra is nearly £40K, it should really be not much more than half that. They need to get their house in order and get list prices well down, and stop hiding behind leases and PCPs as a way of getting away with truly ridiculous pricing.

Protectionism is not the solution here.

 

[jon0844]

It was the head of Stellantis who implied that China could remotely kill all of its EVs and track users, but I think everyone saw through that ridiculous conspiracy theory.

So they've pushed to making it harder for China to sell cars, despite Stellantis and others relying on China for batteries and other tech. A trade war won't end well.

 

[paul1609]

Would you need a home charger if the car was parked up overnight? You could use a regular wall socket that will still be ample to give enough range overnight given the mileage you say you do.

Why charge faster when you clearly won't need to?

I've had a couple of company EVs that I've charged using a 13a socket in the garage. For rural electricity supply reasons it's not possible for me to have a 7kw charger. Because of the need to use the car to answer random call outs I always needed to arrive back at home with as a minimum 50% charge, this in turn means very irritating visits to public chargers when you are nearly home. If cost is an issue you also have very limited hours at the off peak rates.
Personally unless the car is only going to be used for very short trips as well as a low annual mileage I don't think granny charging is a sensible option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Charging an EV at home at any time of day is far, far cheaper than petrol or diesel.

Most people do not need to answer random callouts. That's almost as bad an argument as Granny being about to pop her clogs, which is heading towards the "RUK standard minority" in its tenuousness.

 

[PeterC]

Charging an EV at home at any time of day is far, far cheaper than petrol or diesel.

Most people do not need to answer random callouts. That's almost as bad an argument as Granny being about to pop her clogs, which is heading towards the "RUK standard minority" in its tenuousness.

I love the way that these edge cases are dismissed as trivial on this thread but similar edge cases applied to rail tickets are vital reasons why ticketing can't be reformed

 

[jon0844]

I've had a couple of company EVs that I've charged using a 13a socket in the garage. For rural electricity supply reasons it's not possible for me to have a 7kw charger. Because of the need to use the car to answer random call outs I always needed to arrive back at home with as a minimum 50% charge, this in turn means very irritating visits to public chargers when you are nearly home. If cost is an issue you also have very limited hours at the off peak rates.
Personally unless the car is only going to be used for very short trips as well as a low annual mileage I don't think granny charging is a sensible option.

But this was about someone doing 2,000 miles per year. If you need to drive at any time and potentially do a lot of miles, you obviously don't fall into this category. For someone doing 6 miles a day on average, that's probably 1-1.5 hours of slow charging and you're back to 80/100%.

I know I'll be in the 13a socket camp doing 20 miles per day max in most cases, and some journeys of 40-50 miles. Both scenarios that mean I can charge overnight, or even during the day, to easily keep the car topped up. If I suddenly needed more, I'd pay for a home charger.

A home charger can often be set to work with variable energy tariffs, but so can a normal plug with a smart switch. I can see the best rates on Octopus Agile and set the switch to charge at the best time. With it likely being only 3 or 4kWh of energy being used each day, I don't even think it's beneficial to change to something like Octopus Go as that will mean higher rates during the day for the other 10-11kWh of consumption.

I shouldn't need to say this, but different people have different needs. Just as some people like to top up their car regularly with fuel to always have a near full tank, and others wait until they're driving on fumes. Heck, I remember growing up and people recommending never putting more than a few gallons in to save weight and improve performance - so you'd end up going to a petrol station every few days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I love the way that these edge cases are dismissed as trivial on this thread but similar edge cases applied to rail tickets are vital reasons why ticketing can't be reformed

To be honest I don't agree that edge cases should stop ticketing reform. However I also think it's fair to say that a 150% fare increase isn't an edge case.

The other difference is that someone who wants an ICE (or at least PHEV) can still buy one, whereas I can't buy a London to Edinburgh off peak return however much I might want one.