UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Andrew*Debbie]

I have £4,000 for an ICE but then what does £4,000 get me for a second hand EV.

Right now? A 2015 VW e-UP with 48,000 miles, a Renault Zoe, or a 2015 or '16 LEAF with the 30kWh battery. I found one '16 LEAF that is about 15% down on capacity. That would give it a usable range around 85-90 miles. Not bad for £4000, especialy when you add in the fuel savings which could easly be £100/month compared to petrol.

What grants are there for EVs in the UK? I didn't think they existed anymore.

None for private owners. We still pay zero VED, but that is ending in a few months. At that point there will be no difference other than tax on fuel. VAT on electricty at home is 5%. Refilling at a public charge points is 20% VAT.

Where are these batteries dropping to 70% health? All evidence suggests car batteries falling to between 85-90% and levelling off. It isn't a linear drop to 0%.

I'm on my 4th EV. My first 2014 LEAF was down nearly 15% after 4 years. Loosing 15% of 80-90 usable range miles was not good. 2nd LEAF with the improved "120 mile" 30kWh battery only lost a few percent in the two years I owned it. The difference was so small I couldn't really tell. BMW i3 never lost any usable range over 3 years. The BMW hid degredation by limiting available battery in software. Eventually it would have run out of 'spare' capacity.

Current car is a Tesla Model 3 with the "standard range" Lithium Iron Phosphate battery. LFP is know for loosing quite a bit in the first few months and mine has been no different. It started with "273" miles of range. One year later it has "261". The car has lost over 4% in one year. Most of that was in the first 3 months. Since then loss has slowed considerably. At the current rate it is loosing less than 1% a year. The battery will probably outlast the car.

 

[AM9]

Sure. But (as I said) the assumption is it's a comparison against fossils, to which those secondary factors apply - perhaps to an even greater degree.

My original criticism was that it was a CO2 generator, - probably quite a surprise to those that believed that the energy that they were buying was at least from the national grid with its progressively reducing carbon footprint.

 

[The Ham]

Diesel generators are used to top up the grid too. There's a set here for example:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

It's not ideal, but at least it keeps burning dead dinosaurs out of city centres where it causes most harm.

(Locally, the karting track causes far more pollution, though I'd expect karting to switch to electric soon enough to be honest)

Electric go carts already exist and one company which runs them at one site and petrol at other sites says that they were quicker by about 3 seconds a lap, which doesn't sound much but when the lap times were about 15 seconds for the petrol is quite a large margin.

They certainly were happy with them and driving them was fun.

 

[AM9]

Diesel generators are used to top up the grid too. There's a set here for example:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

It's not ideal, but at least it keeps burning dead dinosaurs out of city centres where it causes most harm.

(Locally, the karting track causes far more pollution, though I'd expect karting to switch to electric soon enough to be honest)

If diesel generators are used and included within the National Grid's figures which are subject to the de-carbonisation of UK power, then that's OK but random diesel sets generating energy purporting to be green and within that total is really a stealth evasion of that de-carbonisation.

 

[Harpers Tate]

My original criticism was that it was a CO2 generator, - probably quite a surprise to those that believed that the energy that they were buying was at least from the national grid with its progressively reducing carbon footprint.

Do you know what fuel is used in the production of bio-fuel. I don't - but if, for example, it's self-fuelled (i.e. uses a portion of its output to power itself) then the carbon footprint (i.e use of "old" carbon) is at worst limited to just transportation to site. And that may be (is, I suspect) lower than the percentage carbon footprint of the grid, a large part of which burns fossil gas. Until there is some verified detail, it may be a false assumption. Ditto those diesel generators on the grid - what are they actually running on? Fossils or Bio?

 

[Mabs]

It does concern me how this bothers people. Nobody should be driving for more than a couple of hours without a break. If EVs force people who weren't taking one to take one, that's a good outcome.

(My bladder wouldn't cope with that anyway!)

I drove London to Blackpool non stop. 4 hours drive.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2024 ==

I recently spoke to my mechanic about EV
He said don't get EV, They're Bull****

 

[Krokodil]

I recently spoke to my mechanic about EV
He said don't get EV, They're Bull****

Someone who makes a living tinkering with engines, clutches and gearboxes doesn't like something that has none of those.

In other news a compositor will tell us that digital typesetting will never catch on...

 

[rangersac]

I drove London to Blackpool non stop. 4 hours drive.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2024 ==

I recently spoke to my mechanic about EV
He said don't get EV, They're Bull****

An ICE mechanic saying EVs are bull***. Quelle surprise

 

[jon0844]

I recently spoke to my mechanic about EV
He said don't get EV, They're Bull****

I'd have been shocked if he didn't say that to be honest. Just as about 20-30 years ago independent mechanics were telling people not to buy cars with engine management systems and equipment they couldn't work on or easily fix, and would usually require going to a main dealer to repair. They basically couldn't fix a lot of the new cars and it was costing them, at least unless they retrained and invested in the necessary equipment.

People are always going to protect their own interests, but you need to protect yours - and an EV is almost certainly going to cost you less to run and maintain. Perhaps help your mechanic by telling them to look into adapting to work on EVs and get clued up on batteries etc, because the change is coming regardless and he isn't going to succeed in stopping people getting one.

 

[AM9]

I drove London to Blackpool non stop. 4 hours drive.

Fortunately, such foolhardy behaviour is becoming rarer as drivers are realising the hazards of fatigue and lapses of attention. When EVs are (almost) universal, together with road charging systems, sensible intervals for breaks will be the norn and should flush those bad habits from the roads.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I drove London to Blackpool non stop. 4 hours drive.

If EVs prevent you taking such a dangerous action as driving four hours with no break, then that is a very good outcome indeed.

 

[Ediswan]

EV range is continuing to increase. Many buyers seem to like that. Relying on EVs having a short range to enforce frequent driving breaks will lead to disappointment. Road pricing is a whole different topic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

EV range is continuing to increase. Many buyers seem to like that.

I like that, but more because my journeys would typically be South East-Lake District/North Wales with no destination charging rather than that I'd take no breaks on the way up and back. A sub 200 mile range means charging only a short way into the return journey, which is inconvenient and unnecessary - I'd rather charge about half way.

 

[Sun Chariot]

EV range is continuing to increase. Many buyers seem to like that. Relying on EVs having a short range to enforce frequent driving breaks will lead to disappointment. Road pricing is a whole different topic.

Those of us with home-to-office commutes farther than the typical EV range, will likely be the ones most likely to retain fossil fuel vehicles.
Re-charging en route to / from work, simply isn't practical. A 3-5 minute toilet break, if I need it, is the only pause I do.
My wife's commute is just at the maximum EV range - and a colleague of hers has a 380 mile round trip. No EV charging facility at their office site.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My wife's commute is a 170 mile round trip; and a colleague of hers has a 380 mile round trip. No EV charging facility at their office site.

People should not be commuting those sorts of distances, particularly not by car - perhaps society could solve that one. It is neither good for them nor is it safe to be doing such a long drive after an early start for a long drive and a full day's work.

Perhaps a move to all insurance being by "black box" (which is likely because of ever-escalating prices for classic policies) could help end this dangerous practice.

Having said that, I'd see an EV as very attractive for someone driving 380 miles every day, because the financial saving would be huge. And most EVs can easily handle a 170 mile round trip, most ranges are over 200 miles now.

 

[Sun Chariot]

People should not be commuting those sorts of distances, particularly not by car - perhaps society could solve that one.

This is the reality of working in the UK.
There are many who cannot get jobs in our career-domains, anywhere near home. 100 mile driving commutes each way, are common in our chunk of England.
Don't believe a word of the government's "15 minute cities" narrative.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the reality of working in the UK.
There are many who cannot get jobs in our career-domains, anywhere near home.

Then the correct answer is to relocate (or split your life over two locations, making a weekly commute instead), not put other road users in danger because you WILL be too tired to make that sort of commute safely.

I live in the South East for exactly that reason - the idea of driving from Liverpool to Milton Keynes and back each day wouldn't even enter consideration - that would be ludicrous - but that's the sort of commute your second example is doing.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Then the correct answer is to relocate (or split your life over two locations, making a weekly commute instead), not put other road users in danger because you WILL be too tired to make that sort of commute safely.

I live in the South East for exactly that reason - the idea of driving from Liverpool to Milton Keynes and back each day wouldn't even enter consideration - that would be ludicrous - but that's the sort of commute your second example is doing.

The correct answer doesn't happen, when I and my wife have spent 4 years seeking jobs in an area we can sensibly afford, and whilst providing the daily care to our 22 year old son who has significant learning difficulties.

Yes - the 380 mile example is someone who commutes from Prestwich to Watford. They spent 2 years looking for a role at their level closer to home. Nothing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The correct answer doesn't happen, when I and my wife have spent 4 years seeking jobs in an area we can afford, and whilst providing daily care to our 22 year old son who has significant learning difficulties.

Your son couldn't relocate too?

I'm sorry, but a 400 mile daily round trip commute is ridiculous - that person is putting other drivers at significant risk. Driving tired is as dangerous as drink driving.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Your son couldn't relocate too?

He could once we can identify and apply for the support network and funding required.
It took more than a year for us to get that, where we are.
Anyway, we're going OT.

 

[Energy]

If diesel generators are used and included within the National Grid's figures which are subject to the de-carbonisation of UK power, then that's OK but random diesel sets generating energy purporting to be green and within that total is really a stealth evasion of that de-carbonisation.

Too be fair, they aren’t intended long term and are a temporary measure until the grid connection is done.

I recently spoke to my mechanic about EV
He said don't get EV, They're Bull****

Would he like to elaborate on the justification for his opinion?

This is the reality of working in the UK.
There are many who cannot get jobs in our career-domains, anywhere near home. 100 mile driving commutes each way, are common in our chunk of England.
Don't believe a word of the government's "15 minute cities" narrative.

Roughly whereabouts in England are you? I have never met anyone with a commute that long, longest I’ve heard of was 50 miles each way mostly by train and that was the limit to what the employer would allow.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Roughly whereabouts in England are you? I have never met anyone with a commute that long, longest I’ve heard of was 50 miles each way mostly by train and that was the limit to what the employer would alallow.

On the Hampshire coast. The specialisms that my wife and I do and at the operating level we do, are very barren here.
We are seeing jobs occasionally advertised over the past 15 months; none has been closer than our existing distances.

 

[bspahh]

I have never met anyone with a commute that long, longest I’ve heard of was 50 miles each way mostly by train and that was the limit to what the employer would allow.

I spent a year commuting 45 miles each way by car, from Stratford upon Avon to Oxford. It was usually about an hour each way, but occaisionally it took 2-3 hours. It was mentally tiring, so over the year, I gained a couple of stone in weight.

I tried doing it by train and Brompton for a couple of weeks. I could get to my new job at 8am or 10am. Getting the early train meant leaving home at 6am, when my girlfriend finished her shift at midnight.

I listened to a lot of Radio 5. They had an interview with someone who drove from Bradford to Reading (213 miles, 4 hours 30 minutes) each day.

That is for commuting every day. If its only a day or two a week, it wouldn't be so bad.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I spent a year commuting 45 miles each way by car, from Stratford upon Avon to Oxford. It was usually about an hour each way, but occaisionally it took 2-3 hours. It was mentally tiring, so over the year, I gained a couple of stone in weight.

I have done it from MK to Slough which is a similar distance. It made me so tired by the end of the week that after a very near miss averted by the attention of the other driver (who gave me a well-deserved slow clap) that I switched to rail despite it adding an hour and costing twice as much.

I can't contemplate how unpleasant and dangerous it would be to do more than twice that.

 

[The Ham]

This is the reality of working in the UK.
There are many who cannot get jobs in our career-domains, anywhere near home. 100 mile driving commutes each way, are common in our chunk of England.
Don't believe a word of the government's "15 minute cities" narrative.

100 miles tris from the cost in Hampshire isn't a surprise, 400 miles is a lot more though.

400 miles at 10p a mile for 200 days is £8,000, by the time you've allowed for tax that's an extra £11,500 in salary that you have to earn (that's before the extra cost in maintenance - such as tires and 2 extra services a year to allow for the 80,000 miles being added to the car.

Depending on route that's what 3 hours of driving each way (so about 13 hours out of the house), that's not much time at home to care for others, so might as well not be at home during the working week. Especially if they could work a compressed week (4 days working but doing 5 days of hours) as that would be a 10 hour working day, which means even in the going to coming back days it's no longer than their standard day but with a whole day at home and shorter days the other two days.

It would also give you (at 10p pet mile) about £500 a month to spend on accommodation.

Of course the bottom line is, such an extreme commute is exceptional and is about as relevant to if EV's are viable for everyone as then but being relevant for my 10 minute walk to work (maybe even less less as there's probable a lot more people with that sort of walk to work).

Also, the idea behind 15 minute cities is to make it attractive to walk/cycle the short distances that make up a lot of most people's travel (school run, getting a few extra bits of shopping, visiting friends, going to the pub, etc) but not being too detrimental for the very long trips (such as going on holiday).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also, the idea behind 15 minute cities is to make it attractive to walk/cycle the short distances that make up a lot of most people's travel (school run, getting a few extra bits of shopping, visiting friends, going to the pub, etc) but not being too detrimental for the very long trips (such as going on holiday).

15 minute cities don't need to be anti-car, they just need to be pro walking/cycling to take very short trips out of cars. Milton Keynes is very close to being one due to the Local Centre concept, and it's about the most pro-car place in the UK. You can be pro walking/cycling without being anti-car, it just requires the money to spend on segregation.

With regard to commutes, though, as you say it's not really relevant. Almost nobody will live within 15 minutes' walk/cycle of their employer and it isn't a realistic goal that they would. However commutes in excess of an hour or thereabouts really are to be avoided, particularly by car, not only because of the effects on the individual but because of the road safety issues too. A 3+ hour each way commute is just nuts.

 

[apk55]

The reality is that gone are the days of job security, with too many firms taking a hire and fire attitude. If you are made redundant and the nearest job you can get is 100 miles away do you commute or move for what may well be a temporary job.
If you are well established in an area and the area you are going to you know nobody the temptation is to commute or rent a temporary second home while keeping your existing home. I had this situation a few years ago.

 

[The Ham]

The reality is that gone are the days of job security, with too many firms taking a hire and fire attitude. If you are made redundant and the nearest job you can get is 100 miles away do you commute or move for what may well be a temporary job.
If you are well established in an area and the area you are going to you know nobody the temptation is to commute or rent a temporary second home while keeping your existing home. I had this situation a few years ago.

For much of the population 100 miles means going past a lot of places, even Plymouth to Bristol is about this far. Obviously there's a lot of the country where that's still going to be an issue - for example there's not many places within 100 miles of Lands End, but then the population isn't that large (probably about 1.5 million, as you don't even make it to Exeter).

That's not too say that it doesn't happen, just that it's likely to be fairly limited in the numbers it impacts at any given time.

The far more widespread use of WFH will also reduce the need for so many to travel those distances (obviously not eliminate as there's still lots of roles which require staff to be in person).

However 6 months is driving 200 miles a day is going to be fairly costly and potentially may hamper your ability to job search. As such for some it maybe worth considering a less well paid local job but with lower costs and more time to look for something else (of course for others it's still worth doing).

 

[Krokodil]

If EVs prevent you taking such a dangerous action as driving four hours with no break, then that is a very good outcome indeed.

To be fair, 4hrs 15mins is the limit for continuous time in the driving seat of a train.

This is the reality of working in the UK.

Not for almost everybody. 75% of the workforce travel less than 10 miles.

Don't believe a word of the government's "15 minute cities" narrative.

What "narrative" would that be then? In your own words.

The reality is that gone are the days of job security, with too many firms taking a hire and fire attitude. If you are made redundant and the nearest job you can get is 100 miles away do you commute or move for what may well be a temporary job.

A third of the population have some element of remote work so longer commutes may feel less bad if they're not a daily thing.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I worked with someone who commuted daily from Rye (same distance as Hastings) to Mitcham in South London. Just under 60 miles each way taking over 2 hours to get to London and just under 2 hours to get home. Do over 4 hours and almost 120 miles five days a week. They could not afford to move nearer to London - I think the wife stayed at home.

Another was a director commuting from Hastings to Sutton so probably the same grind.

These sorts of journeys are the exception to the rule but commuting from the coast of the home counties to outer London is not uncommon in my experience.

For me I do so little mileage on average that the cost per mile is not worth calculating.