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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

gg1

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I've seen people complain about brake discs rusting within a few years, typically when they hardly use the car.

Is that because the car used the main brake discs for the parking brake, so you get rust on the exposed bits of the disc, and not under the pads?

With an electric car, you might only need to use the brake discs for an emergency stop. Do the discs still rust?
The new (2022 onwards) Kia Niro EV has a solution for that problem. It has a 'brake cleaning mode' which when selected temporarily disables the regenerative braking so the next few times you touch the brake pedal it solely uses the mechanical brakes. I don't know if other EV manufactures have a similar feature.
 
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E27007

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I've seen people complain about brake discs rusting within a few years, typically when they hardly use the car.

Is that because the car used the main brake discs for the parking brake, so you get rust on the exposed bits of the disc, and not under the pads?

With an electric car, you might only need to use the brake discs for an emergency stop. Do the discs still rust?
I have driven a regeneratively-braked hybrid for 20+ years, the regenerative braking retardation is determined by the ability of the battery to accept charge and the state of charge of the battery, when the battery is near-full or full, regen diminishes to low levels to avoid overcharging the battery, so friction brakes are needed and used. Wear and tear of friction brakes is less but the friction brakes are never inactive.
 

Harpers Tate

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The "odds of something going wrong", in the case of the ZEV, the mandatory warranty allows degradation from 100% to 70% in 8 years, effectively the buyer is accepting at purchase the ZEV battery will diminish significantly by the mid-point of the vehicle life.
The buyer of an IC car, the buyer accepts the car will degrade over time but not by such a significant margin at the mid-life point of the vehicle, a manufacturer whose IC car could lose 30% of its engine power and decrease mpg by 30% at 8 years of age would not have many customers

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The buyer is accepting at purchase that the battery may degrade up to the point where its capacity is 70% of new. Not that it will. I suspect that manufacturers will be reluctant to design and build something that is so close to this tolerance as to be likely to result in a warranty claim. That would not be good business. Thus, statistically, I suspect that by the time you scrap the car for other reasons, it's probably going to still have a perfectly usable battery. There is some limited evidence of ultra-high mileage cars that remain perfectly usable, but it's still too early to say for certain, one way or the other. But either way, you are "safe" for its first 8 years. Direct Line cite that the average age of cars on UK roads is rising at around (only) 9.4 years (in 2023).

As to the rest, that's the product of imagination. The easiest way to draw an equivalence here would be that the fuel tank reduces in capacity by up to 30%. And that is all. There is no suggestion, nor practical reason why, that would represent any change in power or consumption. If your battery currently has a degraded capacity down from 79 kWh to 55 kWh then it no longer takes 79kWh to fill it; it takes 55kWh to fill it. And the motor still has the same 200 (say) PSs it did when new.
I've seen people complain about brake discs rusting within a few years, typically when they hardly use the car.

Is that because the car used the main brake discs for the parking brake, so you get rust on the exposed bits of the disc, and not under the pads?

With an electric car, you might only need to use the brake discs for an emergency stop. Do the discs still rust?
Friction brakes are used to a far lesser degree in EVs as most of the braking force is provided by regeneration/retardation. Hence they wear much, much less, but are somewhat more prone to corrosion since they don't get worn and thereby polished to the same degree. But (depending on the car) you either can, or unavoidably will, use friction some of the time. In my car (and they aren't all like this) if the battery is full then regeneration doesn't work for the first few miles, for that would attempt to overcharge it and that is prevented. And my electric retard/regen only slows the car to a crawl at best; it doesn't stop it; again, friction is needed. So they do get enough wear to keep shiny. In other cases, an occasional otherwise unnecessary sharp application of the brakes is all that is needed to maintain them. And, of course, as you say, any necessary sharp application (such as an emergency stop) does the same thing.
 

jon0844

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The "odds of something going wrong", in the case of the ZEV, the mandatory warranty allows degradation from 100% to 70% in 8 years, effectively the buyer is accepting at purchase the ZEV battery will diminish significantly by the mid-point of the vehicle life.
The buyer of an IC car, the buyer accepts the car will degrade over time but not by such a significant margin at the mid-life point of the vehicle, a manufacturer whose IC car could lose 30% of its engine power and decrease mpg by 30% at 8 years of age would not have many customers

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


A retail commodity , a car battery £70 to £100 becomes a £1000 special item, what exactly is so special about the technology of this £1000 battery without which the car cannot function?

Where are these batteries dropping to 70% health? All evidence suggests car batteries falling to between 85-90% and levelling off. It isn't a linear drop to 0%. Obviously all batteries WILL fail eventually, but we're seeing batteries last far longer than manufacturers are claiming - presumably to ensure they won't be shelling out to replace batteries.

I am somewhat concerned about any battery that is paired to a vehicle, and wish this was outlawed. Many car makers are attempting to do this by claiming it makes the vehicle secure, and without which dodgy dealers will hack car systems and follow people into dark multistorey carparks and rape them (this is NOT hyperbole - car makers in the USA actually produced videos to scare people into voting against right to repair and literally claimed women would be raped).

If we allow this, we won't need to worry about batteries because brake pads will have serial numbers and need to be activated by the car maker to allow the brakes to work. Without which, the car will refuse to move.

But, I must stress that this isn't an EV thing. It's a greedy car industry thing.
 

E27007

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Where are these batteries dropping to 70% health? All evidence suggests car batteries falling to between 85-90% and levelling off. It isn't a linear drop to 0%. Obviously all batteries WILL fail eventually, but we're seeing batteries last far longer than manufacturers are claiming - presumably to ensure they won't be shelling out to replace batteries.
At consultation stages of drafting of the ZEV Act of Parliament, car makers sought a permitted degradation to 60%, the Act passed with 70% as the permitted degardation figure, if the car makers are so confident of the battery technology, then why such a low 60% or 70%, why not 85% as the trigger point fro the warranty?
 

paul1609

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My ex employer ran a fleet of early Nissan Leafs without any thermal management as pool cars. At around 3 years old they were all showing 70 to 80% of battery condition on the gauge. I toyed with buying one as a retirement run around, they were dirt cheap but decided to stick with a ice pickup in the end
 

jon0844

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At consultation stages of drafting of the ZEV Act of Parliament, car makers sought a permitted degradation to 60%, the Act passed with 70% as the permitted degardation figure, if the car makers are so confident of the battery technology, then why such a low 60% or 70%, why not 85% as the trigger point fro the warranty?

They'd push for allowing batteries to fall to 10% if they could. It's up to regulators/the Government to set a fair level and it sounds like they capitulated. 70% is very low.
 

Bletchleyite

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A retail commodity , a car battery £70 to £100 becomes a £1000 special item, what exactly is so special about the technology of this £1000 battery without which the car cannot function?

A deep cycle 12V lead acid battery is a leisure battery. Those cost about a hundred quid too.

Like most things, anyone paying a main stealer £1K for that is a mug.
 

paul1609

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A deep cycle 12V lead acid battery is a leisure battery. Those cost about a hundred quid too.

Like most things, anyone paying a main stealer £1K for that is a mug.
Alledgedly the £100 leisure battery doesnt have the right capabilities of driving the electric cars control system? as a consequence the correct battery requires to be coded so the central "computer" recognises it and will power up the car. Apparently the Golf battery costs around £500 plus VAT the remainder is the fitting and labour costs for correctly coding it. According to my source who might be a patrolman for a major motoring organisation. You can give the old battery a quick fast charge and the car will get the owner back to London but it will most likely fail again in the next 10 days. They dont have any contacts for non main stealer batteries.
 

Bletchleyite

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Alledgedly the £100 leisure battery doesnt have the right capabilities of driving the electric cars control system? as a consequence the correct battery requires to be coded so the central "computer" recognises it and will power up the car. Apparently the Golf battery costs around £500 plus VAT the remainder is the fitting and labour costs for correctly coding it. According to my source who might be a patrolman for a major motoring organisation. You can give the old battery a quick fast charge and the car will get the owner back to London but it will most likely fail again in the next 10 days. They dont have any contacts for non main stealer batteries.

Ah, parts coding, a deliberate way of avoiding the use of pattern parts and not an integral part of its function. Surprised the EU haven't already banned it, but you can be sure they will soon.

If VAG are doing that for EVs though they can as easily do it for ICEs.
 

trebor79

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Alledgedly the £100 leisure battery doesnt have the right capabilities of driving the electric cars control system?
Piffle
as a consequence the correct battery requires to be coded so the central "computer" recognises it and will power up the car. Apparently the Golf battery costs around £500 plus VAT the remainder is the fitting and labour costs for correctly coding it. According to my source who might be a patrolman for a major motoring organisation. You can give the old battery a quick fast charge and the car will get the owner back to London but it will most likely fail again in the next 10 days. They dont have any contacts for non main stealer batteries.
Scam to force people to buy overpriced batteries.
 

E27007

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Alledgedly the £100 leisure battery doesnt have the right capabilities of driving the electric cars control system? as a consequence the correct battery requires to be coded so the central "computer" recognises it and will power up the car. Apparently the Golf battery costs around £500 plus VAT the remainder is the fitting and labour costs for correctly coding it. According to my source who might be a patrolman for a major motoring organisation. You can give the old battery a quick fast charge and the car will get the owner back to London but it will most likely fail again in the next 10 days. They dont have any contacts for non main stealer batteries.
I am aware of "coding" a car to a 12 V battery, the service bay enter a setting in the ECU when a new 12V battery is installed if the new battery is not the same chemistry as the old, the car ECU and alternator match charging control to the chemistry of the battery installed.
The VW battery for £500 + labour, does the "wunderbarbatt" have an internal chip loaded with an ID code which the ECU has to read and verify before the car will power up?
 
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Harpers Tate

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...if the car makers are so confident of the battery technology, then why such a low 60% or 70%, why not 85% as the trigger point fro the warranty?
As I said before - it's simply not economic or realistic to set the mandated threshold at a point where it brings a high probability of claim. There are limits as to what battery technology can achieve and some degradation is unavoidable. Put simply - if the mandated threshold is too high, then the probability that unavoidable variances in production and/or in drivers' behaviour will give rise to a warranty claim rises with it. And ultimately, the cost of those warranty batteries is only ever borne by the customer as part of their initial purchase price.
 

E27007

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My ex employer ran a fleet of early Nissan Leafs without any thermal management as pool cars. At around 3 years old they were all showing 70 to 80% of battery condition on the gauge. I toyed with buying one as a retirement run around, they were dirt cheap but decided to stick with a ice pickup in the end
In the past had an an interesting conversation with a young Polish Graduate Engineer on a 2-hour train journey concerning those first generation Nissan Leaf cars, he was an all-round engineer in electronics and programming. Young , keen,versatile, highly employable.... very switched on!
He had turned down a permanent job with Nissan, he would have been pushed into the Leaf dept, apparently no-one in Nissan wanted to work on the Leaf, a job associated with the Leaf was considered a dead-end position. 1 in 3 of new battery packs were rejected by QA. A work colleague had a early Leaf as first owner, several issues with actual vs expected range, after lengthy attempts by the dealer to improve the Leaf did not work, all parties agreed to take back the Leaf and the lease cancelled without penalty.
The young graduate engineer was working with Hydrogen Fuel Cells at the time of our conversation, (not with Nissan) and was a contract programmer for a water utility developing algorithms for control of river and reservoir flow and levels. Very sharp in thinking and extremely fluent in technical and scientific english language
 
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trebor79

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He had turned down a permanent job with Nissan, he would have been pushed into the Leaf dept, apparently no-one in Nissan wanted to work on the Leaf, a job associated with the Leaf was considered a dead-end position.

The young graduate engineer was working with Hydrogen Fuel Cells at the time of our conversation,
The irony!
 

AndrewE

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A nice article about vehicle conversions, but it makes the point that it is a niche application, best suited to high value/specialist vehicles. https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ng-industry-converts-old-vehicles-to-electric:
...
The taxi is part of a small but growing industry replacing polluting fossil fuel engines with much cleaner electric power.
EV conversions have already extended well beyond London cabs, to almost anything that previously ran on petrol or diesel. Classic cars can be upgraded to run without exhaust emissions. Several companies are “upcycling” vans to make them run on batteries; Equipmake re-engineers buses in Norfolk; and New Electric in the Netherlands even creates battery-powered tractors and rollers.
...
The principle is consistent: why scrap a perfectly good vehicle when you can just add a battery and motor instead?
...
the key to making conversions profitable is looking at vehicles whose owners have spent heavily on features behind the engine, and who could then benefit from the much lower running and maintenance costs of electric vehicles.
Conversions cost between £20,000 and £40,000 depending on battery size, but fleets should make that back in about three years in fuel savings alone, Boyner says. By comparison, a fully fitted refrigerated van might cost £70,000.

Boyner hopes to convince owners of the likes of refrigerated vans, ambulances and even camper vans that they can keep the body of the vehicle and just swap out its engine.
“When you want to change, do you want to invest all over again?” Boyner adds. “It’s a niche, but a big one. The more the money is spent [on the existing vehicle], the more the market opportunity.”
 

E27007

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The irony!
Fuel cells are muscling into industrial applications, but not in cars, the fuel cells are used for demand balancing, eg electrical demand of a chemical plant, the aim is for the plant to negotiate with an electricity supplier a price for a contract for electricity supply with strict rules and penalties for exceeding contracted demand and even dipping below contracted demand. The purpose of the fuel cell in such arrangements is to assist with control and regulation of power requirements of the plant to avoid penalties
 

Noddy

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In the past had an an interesting conversation with a young Polish Graduate Engineer on a 2-hour train journey concerning those first generation Nissan Leaf cars, he was an all-round engineer in electronics and programming. Young , keen,versatile, highly employable.... very switched on!
He had turned down a permanent job with Nissan, he would have been pushed into the Leaf dept, apparently no-one in Nissan wanted to work on the Leaf, a job associated with the Leaf was considered a dead-end position. 1 in 3 of new battery packs were rejected by QA. A work colleague had a early Leaf as first owner, several issues with actual vs expected range, after lengthy attempts by the dealer to improve the Leaf did not work, all parties agreed to take back the Leaf and the lease cancelled without penalty.
The young graduate engineer was working with Hydrogen Fuel Cells at the time of our conversation, (not with Nissan) and was a contract programmer for a water utility developing algorithms for control of river and reservoir flow and levels. Very sharp in thinking and extremely fluent in technical and scientific english language

This is quite possibly the funniest post I’ve ever read on here! I nearly spat my tea out when I read it! It’s a shame the engineer was not switched on enough to recognise that batteries are the future!

-

Although not directly relevant to this thread as the car is not available in the UK (yet) Out of Spec (a YouTube channel) have just got a model year 2025 118kWh Lucid Air Grand Touring to travel 510 miles at 70mph with an average consumption of 4.3miles per kWh in (admittedly good) real world conditions. 4.3kWh is what my electric car has achieved over the last 20000 or so miles but my cars battery is almost half the size (62kwh) so it’s pretty impressive figures and shows what’s possible when efficiency is the absolute priority of the design and engineering. For reference 510 miles is the equivalent of travelling from Folkestone to Dunblane via the M6 but I reckon if you tried that the Lucid would get you even further due to the slower traffic conditions you’d undoubtedly face!
 

Harpers Tate

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Agree wholly that efficiency does not appear to have been given the priority it should. Just bung in a bigger battery, never mind the aerodynamics. Range is all anyone is interested in.

With a huge mix of driving from short/urban right through to ~2 hours mixed including dual carriageway/motorway for the period 4/8 to 2/9 inc., my car reports an average consumption of 6.65 m/kWh.
 

signed

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Will that not entice shady dealership/mechanics into charging massive sums for what will be mostly software issues?

With the addition of killing right to repair in the process, because most of the car is black-box software? (unless you have a Tesla where you have limited (paid) access to that software with the Toolbox)
 

Bletchleyite

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Will that not entice shady dealership/mechanics into charging massive sums for what will be mostly software issues?

With the addition of killing right to repair in the process, because most of the car is black-box software? (unless you have a Tesla where you have limited (paid) access to that software with the Toolbox)

There's not much to repair, but if that becomes an issue I am sure the EU will legislate.
 

AM9

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which (presumably) is irrelevant / of no use at all in the UK!
Oh how wrong that is. Much of our consumer legislation is the same or equivalent that that established by the EU. It will continue to be that way at least for decades. :lol:
 

AndrewE

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but I suspect that if a UK citizen feels aggrieved they will find that there is nothing in our domestic law that will allow them to challenge the supplier. Unless a special law has been passed mirroring the new EU legislation - which is exactly what the Brexiteers said would not happen.
 

paul1609

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This is quite possibly the funniest post I’ve ever read on here! I nearly spat my tea out when I read it! It’s a shame the engineer was not switched on enough to recognise that batteries are the future!

-

Although not directly relevant to this thread as the car is not available in the UK (yet) Out of Spec (a YouTube channel) have just got a model year 2025 118kWh Lucid Air Grand Touring to travel 510 miles at 70mph with an average consumption of 4.3miles per kWh in (admittedly good) real world conditions. 4.3kWh is what my electric car has achieved over the last 20000 or so miles but my cars battery is almost half the size (62kwh) so it’s pretty impressive figures and shows what’s possible when efficiency is the absolute priority of the design and engineering. For reference 510 miles is the equivalent of travelling from Folkestone to Dunblane via the M6 but I reckon if you tried that the Lucid would get you even further due to the slower traffic conditions you’d undoubtedly face!
If you were going from Folkestone to Dunblane youd go M20/25/11/A14/1/66 to join the M6 at Penrith via Scotch Corner its shorter and nearly always quicker that way. The only regular hold up on that route is the A1 Doncaster Bypass between the M18 and M62. In fact its often quicker to take the M18 eastwards and then the M62 back west to ferrybridge. In 30 years of travelling between Kent and Faslane the only time Id use the M6 south of penrith was when Stainmoor was closed by snow. Its about 485 miles to Dunblane using that route.
 

signed

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There's not much to repair, but if that becomes an issue I am sure the EU will legislate.
There are expectations that you can work on your own car, it is not in law, but it is a very cultural thing in most of Europe.

And there are still quite a lot of parts you may want/need to swap out before incurring the diagnostic fees and the 100s/h in labour cost.

Even in the most modern non-Chinese ICE cars, you, as an individual, have access (either legally or not that legally) to parts, service manuals, and the software required to communicate with the car.

Now even Tesla hid the OBD II port behind the front seats and requiring a special adapter, it's really becoming quite bleak. Though in fairness, they are still the openest of EV manufacturer, giving the full service manuals for free and giving 1st-party access to the full technician software (though for a per hour charge).
 
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paul1609

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There's not much to repair, but if that becomes an issue I am sure the EU will legislate.
My major car recovery patrolman reckons that the reason ICE car reliability is plummeting is the overcomplicated electronics are failing rather than a mechanical fault. he reckons that is already an issue in terms of motorway breakdowns for some makes of EV. He is particularly scathing of one German manufacturer (not part of VAG). He covers the M20/5/6.
 

signed

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overcomplicated electronics are failing rather than a mechanical fault
Oh absolutely. I have a '93 Merc, it has done 330k km, without major mechanical issues, the only issues have been electrical.

On EVs, I would guess software is the main problem that will plague EVs, when we see the news of bricked cars (notably Ford), the main screen just stop working.
 

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