UK Storms

[lonogrol]

I am not convinced you can compare the TFL network with the TOC network. If you were going to make the comparision it would have to be netween the London Overground Neowrk and the TOC network. Even then it is not necessarially fair due to the lengths of network involved.

I am not sure what the average distance between stations is on the TFL network but I suspect they are closer than they are on the rail network and therefore station staff can see the obstructions. In addition there are possibly more staff at TFL stations.

Im not talking about station staff peering off the end of the platform to see that a wendy house has ended up on the tracks but that a Train Operator has noticed that there is an obstruction, and the Controller is able to summon station staff to assist.

However of course TFL want to take over certain suburban rail routes so an opportunity to kick the existing TOCs is not to be missed!

As far as I'm aware LOROL is still a T.O.C. and also suffered badly yesterday. It's not a TfL but a London Underground issue.

 

[DaveHarries]

Remember being on a ballast train early one sunday morning about 25 years ago and we ended up walking across Harringworth viaduct in high winds to relieve the other crew as the staff bus driver was told the wrong end of the viaduct.Fun.Not!

Reminds me of the time I got sent to Pembroke Dock for work. It was blowing a real gale and I went up to a view point next to the Cleddau Bridge which runs from the Milford Haven side to the Pembroke Dock side and which was closed to all vehicles. I managed to gain permission to walk across it (the signs said closed to vehicles and pedestrians) at my own risk and it took 10 minutes each way. I got away unscathed and I still have the video: the video was made by holding onto my camera with one hand through the strap while I used my right hand to hold onto the wire fencing. I think that if I had not held onto the fencing I would have been blown over more than once as the Cleddau Bridge is quite a high one.

Manual crossing gates were fun to operate for a while this morning.

Where was that? If I ever find myself in the area and with time on my hands then photos will be taken for my signalbox photo collection.

Just had a look: the JourneyCheck page of SWT says that work to replace the signal is to be done tonight and it is hoped to run as normal on Wednesday.

Dave

 

[Carlisle]

Are you sure? Where did the phrase 'Jesus, another train delay!' come from then?

He oviously has to revert to the donkey cos of those persistent Sunday engineering closures

 

[westv]

Somone I know told me today that they knew of a person who tried to travel from Hull to London yesterday, only got part way and ended up paying for another ticket to get back to Hull. Now I know no more than that and these things often get lost in translation but surely on the face of it that was totally wrong?

 

[jon0844]

He oviously has to revert to the donkey cos of those persistent Sunday engineering closures

I'm sure the work over Easter didn't do him any favours either.

 

[bicbasher]

As far as I'm aware LOROL is still a T.O.C. and also suffered badly yesterday. It's not a TfL but a London Underground issue.

LOROL is a TfL concessionaire who operate on mainly NR infrastructure, which doesn't make it a traditional TOC as the DfT don't decide if they continue the concession. However they are a member of ATOC and sell NR tickets, although period travelcards are only sold on Oyster.

The TfL owned ELL core re-opened in the morning after the storm passed, with the GOBLIN, Watford DC and West Croydon/Crystal Palace sections opening by mid-afternoon. A shuttle service operated on the NLL between Camden Road and Stratford and the WLL (as far as Willesden Junction)/SLL reopened by the evening peak. It was only the Richmond branch which was closed all day.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Coppicing is cutting trees down to the base of the trunk (used on willow for example as a biomass crop)
Pollarding is cutting all the branches from the top of the main trunk, common on urban streets & in France. can be done on most hardwoods,

Doh. Got Pollarding and Coppicing mixed up. I meant Coppicing. But I am wondering if that is what the railways already do or if that is infact Pollarding. Dont know what I read re the railways ages ago.

 

[jopsuk]

Actually it varies toc to toc. On southern all dispatch staff are allowed on the line if needed. On FCC very few are.

Are dispatch staff that have the training to go on the line paid more? Obviously their training costs more.

For a business it'll come down to whether or not that additional cost is worth it for these (hopefully) occasional situations.

 

[infobleep]

Southern had delays last night caused by congestion due to an earlier failed train. No announcement about this on any train; on the online departure board or stations expect Brighton.

The train was I was on was 10 minutes late into Haywards Heath; Wivlresfield and Brighton and less delayed prior to that but still delayed. Admittly I didn't get out at any other station than Brighton but I know from previous experiences they say nothing. The question is why are Brighton bound people so special that they deserve an explanation but no one else does?

I bet they give out better information the day before.

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[infobleep]

More delays on SWT this morning with no reason given. I'm on the 10 minute delayed Hampton court service from Clapham Junction. Contrast this with Monday when they eetr giving out lots of information.

Do SWT actually onitor the departure boards at stations when there isn't server weather? Of course they must do so why isn't the infornation getting out to the puhlic.

They must surely be able to work out why so many trains are being delayed. Like I say on Monday they did a good job. Since then however it's not been as good.

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[infobleep]

I have tweeted them so I May gets reply. I did yesterday afternoon and evening but not yesterday morning. That was due you a lag on their computdr systems. I hope there is no lag for them this morning. As a heavy computer user I'm not perticularly keen on slow computers and I have that problem myself.

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[infobleep]

Turns out it is a signal problem delaying trains up to 15 mins. Must have only recently occurred. If they update NRE then good on them.

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[Urban Gateline]

Turns out it is a signal problem delaying trains up to 15 mins. Must have only recently occurred. If they update NRE then good on them.

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It's been on their Twitter for the last 25mins or so! Maybe they are better at updating that than their PIS boards

 

[Monty]

More delays on SWT this morning with no reason given. I'm on the 10 minute delayed Hampton court service from Clapham Junction. Contrast this with Monday when they eetr giving out lots of information.

Do SWT actually onitor the departure boards at stations when there isn't server weather? Of course they must do so why isn't the infornation getting out to the puhlic.

They must surely be able to work out why so many trains are being delayed. Like I say on Monday they did a good job. Since then however it's not been as good.

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Company blackberry says there are signalling problems between Waterloo and Wimbledon forcing trains to run at a reduced speed.

 

[infobleep]

How was this information given out before mobiles? Would telegrams have been used ever or just word of mouth from staff at stations or may be it was nothing given out.

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[Monty]

Between train crew? I imagine the signaller would stop the train at the nearest convient point and have the message passed on to them. Otherwise I imagine they would use a landline telephone between stations.

 

[woolwinder]

Lots of very valid points from the posts in this thread. My own conclusion is that of the many routes that I have travelled during the last couple of summers, have the appearance of a railway passing through an enchanted forest which is very nice for summer leisure trips, but fatal for winter commuting. Spaying a bit of wedkiller around during the spring is not really going to prevent stuff from damaging the infrastructure.

With further high winds and general stormy weather forecasted for the first part of November, we could be in for further repeats, and will continually do so until a professional policy of landscape management is made and implemented.

 

[Flamingo]

The problems associated with managing lineside trees and responsibility for them is covered in the RAIB report on the Lavington crash, http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/110407_R082011_Lavington.pdf

 

[davetheguard]

Lots of very valid points from the posts in this thread. My own conclusion is that of the many routes that I have travelled during the last couple of summers, have the appearance of a railway passing through an enchanted forest which is very nice for summer leisure trips, but fatal for winter commuting. Spaying a bit of wedkiller around during the spring is not really going to prevent stuff from damaging the infrastructure.

With further high winds and general stormy weather forecasted for the first part of November, we could be in for further repeats, and will continually do so until a professional policy of landscape management is made and implemented.

Actually I'm not sure that "a railway passing through an enchanted forest" is always that good. We travelled over the West Highland from Glasgow to Rannoch last May, and were a bit disappointed with some sections; great views have been lost because trees have been allowed to grow all along the lineside.

And that's before you consider the damage to earthworks from tree roots and wheelflats in the autumn from the leaves.

I agree with the call for a policy of landscape management. I seem to remember something similar being done in NSE days on the Basingstoke to Winchester line which resulted in several long-lost panoramas being opened up again; you don't cut everything down, but strike a balance between the railway's needs and some neighbours' wishes never to see a train from their cottage half a mile away.

 

[deltic]

HS2 are planning on planting 4 million trees along the route - hopefully they will not be too near the tracks!

 

[philjo]

If you take all the vegetation away from embankments then they are much more liable to landslips (or washing away completely) after heavy rain as the roots help to hold the embankment together (unless they are replace with concrete as great expense). It would be much quicker/easier to remove a few fallen trees after a storm than having to rebuild large sections of embankments after a spell of intense rain.
Obviously you can cut the trees back so they are not overhanging the line itself.
Many people whose properties adjoin the railway lines plant tall trees on their boundary so those trees would still be there even if NR wanted to clear them all away.

 

[Mainliner]

Somone I know told me today that they knew of a person who tried to travel from Hull to London yesterday, only got part way and ended up paying for another ticket to get back to Hull. Now I know no more than that and these things often get lost in translation but surely on the face of it that was totally wrong?

On the NCL-KGX service on which I travelled on Monday, there were repeated announcements (from before the start) that there would be no trains south of Peterborough, and that anyone wanting to go to London or other destinations south of Peterborough should not travel, and their ticket would be valid the following day. Perhaps someone has taken the view that anyone who ignored those warnings and decided to risk it (as I did!) should not expect a free ride back if they effectively changed their mind?

What I was more concerned about was that I needed to spend two days in London (i.e. Monday and Tuesday, returning on Tuesday night). If I had aborted the outward journey, as advised by EC, OK I may have got there on Tuesday on my original ticket, but would I have been able to change the return journey to Wednesday free of charge? I somehow doubt it!

 

[jopsuk]

HS2 are planning on planting 4 million trees along the route - hopefully they will not be too near the tracks!

This has confused me a bit. They're being touted as a noise barrier, yet it is known that trees are rubbish at absorbing sound and create a lot of noise when it is breezy. So much that the Environment Agency can only conduct noise surveys at work on still days.

If you take all the vegetation away from embankments then they are much more liable to landslips (or washing away completely) after heavy rain as the roots help to hold the embankment together

That's not as true as you think it is...

 

[infobleep]

More problems this evening. A line side fire around Clapham Junction. On top of that base was not able to receive emails so they did not know to update the CIS with the cancelled 18.33 Ore service. They did update it with details of the line side fire.

These details were on South West Trains journey check page. However they are not on the National Rail Enquiries online departure board. Again contrast that with Monday where info was put up there. Not been a good few days for the railway.

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[westv]

Somone I know told me today that they knew of a person who tried to travel from Hull to London yesterday, only got part way and ended up paying for another ticket to get back to Hull. Now I know no more than that and these things often get lost in translation but surely on the face of it that was totally wrong?

On the NCL-KGX service on which I travelled on Monday, there were repeated announcements (from before the start) that there would be no trains south of Peterborough, and that anyone wanting to go to London or other destinations south of Peterborough should not travel, and their ticket would be valid the following day. Perhaps someone has taken the view that anyone who ignored those warnings and decided to risk it (as I did!) should not expect a free ride back if they effectively changed their mind?

What I was more concerned about was that I needed to spend two days in London (i.e. Monday and Tuesday, returning on Tuesday night). If I had aborted the outward journey, as advised by EC, OK I may have got there on Tuesday on my original ticket, but would I have been able to change the return journey to Wednesday free of charge? I somehow doubt it!

I can't speak for this other person but I got the 06:22 from Doncaster and we weren't told that there was no onward service from Peterborough until shortly after having to get off there.

 

[mm333]

Interestingly, 1F80 arrived at Peterborough at 16:39, just as 1F43 departed for Edinburgh at 16:39 as well, which means a whole train load of people just missed a service to the north, not very good customer service from EC

I was on 1F80. We were delayed at Finsbury Park for about 25 minutes while a proving train came south to check the route. When we got into Peterborough, there was a 1700 Edinburgh service (first stop Doncaster) waiting in platform 3. By the time I'd got over the bridge to p4, a service from Leeds was terminating and that became the 1703 all-stations back to Leeds.

 

[Bald Rick]

How was this information given out before mobiles? Would telegrams have been used ever or just word of mouth from staff at stations or may be it was nothing given out.

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Teleprinter and open circuit telephones (essentially a separate telephone system which had several phones permanently connected in a circuit - usually a group of stations / signal boxes)

Also, many incidents were simply described as the wonderfully vague 'operating difficulties'.

 

[westv]

Also, many incidents were simply described as the wonderfully vague 'operating difficulties'.

Hasn't that been replaced by the all encompassing "congestion"?

 

[tsr]

Teleprinter and open circuit telephones (essentially a separate telephone system which had several phones permanently connected in a circuit - usually a group of stations / signal boxes)

Also, many incidents were simply described as the wonderfully vague 'operating difficulties'.

I know of certain preserved/heritage/tourist railways in remote(ish) rural areas which still use that phrase, but I can't always tell if it's "for effect" (i.e. old-fashioned-sounding excuses). Often it isn't - but there's no need to tell the customer as many think the line is just another tourist attraction! Many of these railways do of course now have sophisticated methods to get information out, such as relatively extensive phone and IT networks which can handle an explanation of a delay quite easily, so even news of a remotely-located train can be dealt with efficiently.

Hasn't that been replaced by the all encompassing "congestion"?

Oh, but as you no doubt are aware, there are plenty of "vague" but necessary terms facing the customer out there... "Congestion caused by earlier delays" can mean that several earlier incidents were contributory. "Operating incident" can mean a SPAD or other dangerous/"oh dear"/"oops" issue. "Safety checks" can mean anything from an inspection of a possible broken rail to a suspected trespasser (dead or alive!) on the line. And the above is by no means exhaustive. There are subtle differences but all probably seem worthless, trivial and/or meaningless to at least some passengers.

 

[455driver]

If you take all the vegetation away from embankments then they are much more liable to landslips (or washing away completely) after heavy rain as the roots help to hold the embankment together (unless they are replace with concrete as great expense).

Some tree roots do stabilise the embankment but others (because the roots expand and contract through the seasons) actually damage the embankment.

Basic rule is that smaller trees are good, bigger trees are bad.