UK Steel Crisis

[mbonwick]

I will make a party political point:

The thoroughly decent Conservative party have done sod all to avoid this problem. They could and should have done more. They should be doing more now to ensure the problem doesn't get any worse.

The writing was on the wall for Redcar when Tata mothballed it in 2009. From that standpoint Labour should have done more to sort it out...

It doesn't matter who holds the political reins, there is nothing that can be done to make UK steel more attractive on the world market without addressing a load of other issues first.

This country will never have the cheap labour of China etc, and it'll take decades to sort out the high cost of power/lack of electricity.

The sad fact is that the world has moved on from the days when Britain made the world's steel. We have no more "right" to produce the stuff than anywhere else.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I've no idea.

In other news, we're giving a state banquet to Xi Jinping, a man who has vowed to destroy the ideas of democracy and human rights within China. Just the man for Call Me Dave to be schmoozing, following on from those bastions of tolerance Saudi Arabia.

Let's hope they're nice to us.

Maybe the Chinese can feel they are getting their own back on Britain for flooding China with opium in those heady days when Britain really was a world power. If that is their reasoning based on this, the aspiration that "they're nice to us" will count for naught.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The writing was on the wall for Redcar when Tata mothballed it in 2009. From that standpoint Labour should have done more to sort it out...

This country will never have the cheap labour of China etc, and it'll take decades to sort out the high cost of power/lack of electricity.

This is the real issue here in my opinion. The Governments approach towards the generation of electricity has been nothing short of a disgrace for at least the last 20 years. Not only is this now costing the country thousands of jobs but its also making families pay through the nose for their energy. For crying out loud we don't even have the skill set to build our own power stations anymore! Its an absolute shambles.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This is the real issue here in my opinion. The Governments approach towards the generation of electricity has been nothing short of a disgrace for at least the last 20 years. Not only is this now costing the country thousands of jobs but its also making families pay through the nose for their energy. For crying out loud we don't even have the skill set to build our own power stations anymore! Its an absolute shambles.

Over the last 20 years, we have had two British political parties in office, so do I take what you say as a joint condemnation of both their policies regarding the cost of energy to large industrial users over that 20 year time period.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

This would never have happened under a Monster Raving Loony Party government

 

[mbonwick]

Over the last 20 years, we have had two British political parties in office, so do I take what you say as a joint condemnation of both their policies regarding the cost of energy to large industrial users over that 20 year time period.

Except it's not quite as simple as that. We've had two political parties, yes - but under the Conservative's watch until 1997, things were under control. We had sufficient capacity, and the early ideas were there for replacements as needed at the appropriate time. There's not much they could have done to accelerate the building of new units, as they'd have simply come online too early (leading to overcapacity problems, with similar results to the current steel crisis).

The problem is that since 1997, the UK has signed up to an number of climate change agreements, mandating the closure of the big (polluting) coal stations that formed the main backbone of the UK power network. That wouldn't (shouldn't) have been a problem as logically you'd just bring all the plans forward a few years.

Except Labour didn't. They just buried their heads in the sand and assumed that you could throw together a gas fired station in a year or two, and a nuclear station in 5 or so.

At least with the Tories back at the helm things are starting to get back on track (just with the added hurdles of the quirks of privatisation and undercapacity to overcome). I think that once Hinkley Point C starts construction, a lot of other projects will then leap into the build stage within a year or two.

The main problem has always been the money aspect - nuclear stations are horrifically expensive to build & run, so there needs to be an assurance that they will at least cover their costs. I know there's a lot of anger that the subsidies for renewals have been cut back, but the fact is that wind power will never generate enough power to supply the country, and solar needs a lot more research before it becomes viable. We need to be sensible with what the money is used on.

Anyway - wildly off topic for a thread about Teesside seel.
(As a footnote, Tata Speciality at Rotherham doesn't appear to be shedding any jobs. If there is a future for UK Steel, maybe the speciality/technical/engineering steel is the answer?)

 

[DarloRich]

The writing was on the wall for Redcar when Tata mothballed it in 2009. From that standpoint Labour should have done more to sort it out...

It doesn't matter who holds the political reins, there is nothing that can be done to make UK steel more attractive on the world market without addressing a load of other issues first.

This country will never have the cheap labour of China etc, and it'll take decades to sort out the high cost of power/lack of electricity.

The sad fact is that the world has moved on from the days when Britain made the world's steel. We have no more "right" to produce the stuff than anywhere else.

I'm all right jack eh? I was equally critical of the labour government at the time but at least they realised the impact of the closure on the local area and tried to find a buyer and keep the plant viable. Dave and Gidiot have done nothing.Odd that our European neighbours have taken steps to protect their industry. Why couldn't the Tory boys have done the same here?

But of course these are dirty northern blokes doing a dirty northern job in a dirty northern town not thoroughly decent city spivs and banksters. How silly of me. As for China at least Dave will "raise" the issue with the premier at his summit.So that will all be alright then. :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As a footnote, Tata Speciality at Rotherham doesn't appear to be shedding any jobs. If there is a future for UK Steel, maybe the speciality/technical/engineering steel is the answer?

it will be interesting to see if any of the TATA job cuts fall on the rail plant at Scunthorpe. I wonder then if members might be then interested. Almost all of our rail comes form TATA at Scunthorpe with no obvious replacement

 

[mbonwick]

I'm all right jack eh? I was equally critical of the labour government at the time but at least they realised the impact of the closure on the local area and tried to find a buyer and keep the plant viable. Dave and Gidiot have done nothing.Odd that our European neighbours have taken steps to protect their industry. Why couldn't the Tory boys have done the same here?

But of course these are dirty northern blokes doing a dirty northern job in a dirty northern town not thoroughly decent city spivs and banksters. How silly of me. As for China at least Dave will "raise" the issue with the premier at his summit.So that will all be alright then.

As someone who lives and is from the north, and who has friends on Teesside and that area, I find your comments in bad taste.

You keep saying the government should have done something. Just what exactly?
The liquidators tried to find a buyer and failed - because all companies know that raw BOS steelmaking in the UK is not viable because of the high energy costs.
I understand why you'd want the government to have bailed them out and kept supporting them -but why should taxpayers money end up as profit for a Thai company? If it was UK owned then I might have a different view as they money would have a better chance of staying in the country.
If you then say "British Steel for British Construction" to make the place viable - well that's just not going to work is it? And again we'd be wasting money needlessly.

I don't know the situation with the German steel industry so I can't comment. I would imagine however that they have low enough energy prices, and sufficient capacity that "German Steel for German Construction" is enough to keep them ticking over.

The simple fact is that the world moves on - how many textile mills do we have now compared to 1850? Most if not all have gone to Asia. Steel is just heading the same way.

 

[DarloRich]

As someone who lives and is from the north, and who has friends on Teesside and that area, I find your comments in bad taste.

You keep saying the government should have done something. Just what exactly?
The liquidators tried to find a buyer and failed - because all companies know that raw BOS steelmaking in the UK is not viable because of the high energy costs.
I understand why you'd want the government to have bailed them out and kept supporting them -but why should taxpayers money end up as profit for a Thai company? If it was UK owned then I might have a different view as they money would have a better chance of staying in the country.
If you then say "British Steel for British Construction" to make the place viable - well that's just not going to work is it? And again we'd be wasting money needlessly.

I don't know the situation with the German steel industry so I can't comment. I would imagine however that they have low enough energy prices, and sufficient capacity that "German Steel for German Construction" is enough to keep them ticking over.

The simple fact is that the world moves on - how many textile mills do we have now compared to 1850? Most if not all have gone to Asia. Steel is just heading the same way.

Ihave family and friends working at the very plant in question and i come from the area.

You refer to "energy prices" several times in your post. Do you not think that a reduction in those prices would be a route to providing government support?

Do you not think that the government doing something to reduce the flood of inferior quality Chinese products might be helpful or would you prefer the government to continue to kowtow to our Chinese overlords at every opportunity?

Do you not think the government should be coming up with a detailed plan to help people in the north east find work by helping to attract more inward investment and so create quality, well paying, jobs in the area?

Do you not think that the chance to bid for some of the forthcoming infrastructure contracts should go to UK companies using UK labour and UK products? IF after being given the chance we still cant compete so be it!

or should they do nothing?

BTW i don't want the government to buy a steelworks. I DO want them to put up a fight to try and keep our people working and if they don't win that fight have a back up plan to attract inward investment.

They do neither.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I understand why you'd want the government to have bailed them out and kept supporting them -but why should taxpayers money end up as profit for a Thai company? If it was UK owned then I might have a different view as they money would have a better chance of staying in the country.

If you then say "British Steel for British Construction" to make the place viable - well that's just not going to work is it? And again we'd be wasting money needlessly.

Well the fact it ended up Thai owned, after being owned by the Indian TATA, is a damning indictment on the previous Conservative government's privatisation programme.

There's plenty the Government could do to protect British businesses from foreign countries dumping cheap steel on the market. A bit of good old fashioned protectionist tariff charging never did anyone any harm.

But instead of protecting British business Call Me Dave is too busy gallivanting off around the world sucking up to every human rights abuser he can find.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Over the last 20 years, we have had two British political parties in office,

Well who knew??

so do I take what you say as a joint condemnation of both their policies regarding the cost of energy to large industrial users over that 20 year time period.

Yes Paul, you do. In fact the Labour party should take the majority of the blame for our current energy crisis. However, the current Government should be looking to help with the high energy costs that are currently crippling the steel industry.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

it will be interesting to see if any of the TATA job cuts fall on the rail plant at Scunthorpe. I wonder then if members might be then interested. Almost all of our rail comes form TATA at Scunthorpe with no obvious replacement

They'll start squealing like stuck pigs when Scunthorpe closes for good and the amount of freight passing through Barnetby declines sharply.

 

[mbonwick]

i have family and friends working at the very plant in question and i come fomr the area.

Doesn't stop you saying things that I find borderline offensive...

You refer to "energy prices" several times in your post. Do you not think that a reduction in those prices would be a route to providing government support?

The only way to bring energy prices down is to create more generating capacity. At least this government (unlike the last one that you seem to love so much..) is actually trying to do that. It isn't a quick or cheap fix though.

Do you not think that the government doing something to reduce the flood of inferior quality Chinese products might be helpful or would you prefer the government to continue to kowtow to our Chinese overlords at every opportunity?

Provided the supply chain is correctly monitored, there is actually nothing wrong with Chinese steel. Leave them to their own devices and they will send whatever suits them (can think of a few firms over here that would do the same mind!), but if you pay attention you will get what you want.

Do you not think the government should be coming up with a detailed plan to help people in the north east find work by helping to attract more inward investment and so create quality, well paying, jobs in the area?

or should they do nothing?

I'm not saying they should do nothing, but I certainly don't think we should be going down the route of the government sorting everything out. The ex-employees of Redcar have a responsibility to themselves and their community to pick themselves up and get proactive in finding work.
It's a horrible set of circumstances they find themselves in, and not their fault. But that doesn't mean they should just sit there and feel sorry for themselves.

If I'm being really harsh, they've had 5 years of hints that problems were ahead, and some might argue that employees should have seen this coming.

BTW i don't want the government to buy a steelworks. I DO want them to put up a fight to try and keep our people working and if they don't win that fight have a back up plan to attract inward investment.

They do neither.

You can fight and posture all you want, but there are some fights that you just cannot win. Unfortunately this is one of the side effects of a global economy - if steel is cheaper elsewhere, customers will go elsewhere!

I would hardly say the government have done nothing for the people of the North East either - there's the new Hitachi IEP factory at Newton Aycliffe which will employ 700-800 in the next few years.
And just how many promoting trips have ministers been on in the last few years? Hint: its not zero.

 

[Tetchytyke]

there's the new Hitachi IEP factory at Newton Aycliffe which will employ 700-800 in the next few years.

If you believe that you'll believe anything.

Just imagine how many people would still be in work if this Government had used existing British train manugfacturing instead of the Japanese Insanely Expensive and Pointless train.

In fact the Labour party should take the majority of the blame for our current energy crisis. However, the current Government should be looking to help with the high energy costs that are currently crippling the steel industry.

I don't agree, much of the spiralling cost of energy in this country is related to a) privatisation, and b) the over-reliance on foreign energy suppliers (mostly caused by (a), to be honest).

The wholesale cost of gas and oil has tumbled in the last couple of years- oil is down to 2005 levels and gas has dropped by a third in the last year alone. So why hasn't the equivalent retail cost of gas and electricity dropped by a similar amount?

The effects of the privatisations of the late 80s are now coming back to hit us. Labour can, and should, be blamed for going along with privatisation and not doing more to curb the profiteering of the foreign energy suppliers. But the people who created the mess are the Conservatives.

 

[mbonwick]

The cost of electricity hasn't come down with gas/oil prices because we don't have any extra capacity to take advantage of it. I don't think there's any oil fired powerstations left, and the gas fired ones tend to be the spare capacity as they're the only type that doesn't take days/weeks to start generating electricity when required.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The cost of electricity hasn't come down with gas/oil prices because we don't have any extra capacity to take advantage of it.

If the cost of the raw materials comes down, the cost of the finished item should also come down. The stuff we make electricity with is the cheapest it has been in years, yet the price of electricity itself hasn't changed. The Tories have also been in charge for nearly six years now, before we get too carried away blaming Labour.

Your explanation is why the foreign companies who control our privatised energy market are able to rip us all off. God Bless Capitalism.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I don't agree, much of the spiralling cost of energy in this country is related to a) privatisation, and b) the over-reliance on foreign energy suppliers (mostly caused by (a), to be honest).

The wholesale cost of gas and oil has tumbled in the last couple of years- oil is down to 2005 levels and gas has dropped by a third in the last year alone. So why hasn't the equivalent retail cost of gas and electricity dropped by a similar amount?

The effects of the privatisations of the late 80s are now coming back to hit us. Labour can, and should, be blamed for going along with privatisation and not doing more to curb the profiteering of the foreign energy suppliers. But the people who created the mess are the Conservatives.

We have been closing power stations hand over fist and yet we've not taken adequate steps to replace them. If the private energy companies were not prepared to fund the building of new power stations the Government should have been doing it themselves. Whilst I concur that the cost of wholesale has indeed come down that is almost irrelevant if you've lost much of your capacity to produce electricity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would hardly say the government have done nothing for the people of the North East either - there's the new Hitachi IEP factory at Newton Aycliffe which will employ 700-800 in the next few years.
And just how many promoting trips have ministers been on in the last few years? Hint: its not zero.

Given that Hitachi have purchased a production facility in Italy for European orders how long do you think the plant at Newton Aycliffe will last? Once all the new Intercity trains have been built along with the order for Scotland that will be it. The plant will close and everything will be built in Italy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the cost of the raw materials comes down, the cost of the finished item should also come down. The stuff we make electricity with is the cheapest it has been in years, yet the price of electricity itself hasn't changed. The Tories have also been in charge for nearly six years now, before w

Your explanation is why the foreign companies who control our privatised energy market are able to rip us all off. God Bless Capitalism.

The point is it doesn't matter how cheap the raw materials are if you don't have enough capacity to do anything with them!

 

[DarloRich]

Doesn't stop you saying things that I find borderline offensive...

call it a draw then

The only way to bring energy prices down is to create more generating capacity. At least this government (unlike the last one that you seem to love so much..) is actually trying to do that. It isn't a quick or cheap fix though.

So cheaper energy prices for steel production uses up more capacity? Surely it takes the same amount of power to smelt a ton of ore if the price is £1 or £1000 per unit. Perhaps they will leave the lights on more often

Provided the supply chain is correctly monitored, there is actually nothing wrong with Chinese steel. Leave them to their own devices and they will send whatever suits them (can think of a few firms over here that would do the same mind!), but if you pay attention you will get what you want.

if you cant see the issue with buying products from a communist state with an appalling human rights and employee relations record something is very wrong.

I'm not saying they should do nothing, but I certainly don't think we should be going down the route of the government sorting everything out. The ex-employees of Redcar have a responsibility to themselves and their community to pick themselves up and get proactive in finding work.
It's a horrible set of circumstances they find themselves in, and not their fault. But that doesn't mean they should just sit there and feel sorry for themselves.

No one is suggesting that. I certainly aren't. I am simply saying the government is doing nothing to help people find or create the opportunities to help themselves. People have to be given a chance of finding work. It isn't just presented to them :roll: However, that should not mean them having to leave their families and move to the other end of the country or abroad. That does nothing to help the local economy and simply leads to a greater "brain drain" and economic run down.

If I'm being really harsh, they've had 5 years of hints that problems were ahead, and some might argue that employees should have seen this coming.

They have. And so have the government to come up with a mitigation plan for the fall out. They haven't.

You can fight and posture all you want, but there are some fights that you just cannot win. Unfortunately this is one of the side effects of a global economy - if steel is cheaper elsewhere, customers will go elsewhere!

you can if you make that steel less attractive. Our European cousins have done this. Why haven't we?

I would hardly say the government have done nothing for the people of the North East either - there's the new Hitachi IEP factory at Newton Aycliffe which will employ 700-800 in the next few years.
And just how many promoting trips have ministers been on in the last few years? Hint: its not zero.

If that is them doing something I would hate to see inactivity! Good work chaps! :roll: Their approach is best summed up by local MP and minister of the northern poorhouse Mr James Wharton who described the job losses at SSI as a distraction. They don't care about the north east or the people of the north east. They never have and they never will.

BTW that plant came to Newton Aycliffe in the main because of the work of local MP's like Phil Wilson. I just hope they employ more people from Darlo than they do from Derby or it wont be of much use to local people looking for work. Nor is the impact on the local supply chain as good as it could have been.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The point is it doesn't matter how cheap the raw materials are if you don't have enough capacity to do anything with them!

We're not suffering from blackouts; Redcar hasn't closed down because it didn't get enough electricity, it closed down because that electricity was too expensive.

The fact that the wholesale price of gas and electricity has dropped significantly yet the retail price has remained unchanged shows that the foreign-owned privatised energy suppliers are price-gouging. The Tories- who privatised them and flogged them off to foreign countries in the first place- have had six years to sort this mess out. So far the only thing they've done is apply "carbon tax" duties to renewable energy to force the foreign energy suppliers' competitors out of business.

 

[Darandio]

I would hardly say the government have done nothing for the people of the North East either - there's the new Hitachi IEP factory at Newton Aycliffe which will employ 700-800 in the next few years.
And just how many promoting trips have ministers been on in the last few years? Hint: its not zero.

Before you start preaching items such as the fairly insignificant IEP factory or setting a quiz on ministerial promotional trips, try being here and being surrounded by or knowing many of those affected.

Hard working folk left to effectively rot, sat on the phone (on hold) for long periods of time trying to get through to the Jobcentre in order to claim. When they do, they are being told they will receive no benefit for four weeks and no help towards housing for at least as long. People are genuinely worried about losing what they own. I realise this is the case for other folk that lose work in many parts of the country, but this is on an enormous scale in an already poor and deprived area.

Yet all I keep reading in this thread is how good it seems to be for everyone else, even to the point of gloating.

 

[RichmondCommu]

We're not suffering from blackouts; Redcar hasn't closed down because it didn't get enough electricity, it closed down because that electricity was too expensive.

Increased supply has a downward effect on the cost of the product which in all fairness is basic economics. We currently have just about enough electricity for what we require, if we had more power stations (i.e. more supply) then the cost would start to come down.

The fact that the wholesale price of gas and electricity has dropped significantly yet the retail price has remained unchanged shows that the foreign-owned privatised energy suppliers are price-gouging. The Tories- who privatised them and flogged them off to foreign countries in the first place- have had six years to sort this mess out. So far the only thing they've done is apply "carbon tax" duties to renewable energy to force the foreign energy suppliers' competitors out of business.

Yes the energy suppliers are making a profit but they would be doing that if they were British owned! The fact they are foreign owned has got nothing to do with it when it comes to privately owned companies wanting to make a profit!

Yes the Tories have been in power for five and a half years but power stations (in particular Nuclear ones which are our best bet) do not spring up over night! Incidentally how are carbon taxes being applied to renewable energy? That is a genuine question by the way.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I agree that scarcity of any commodity increases the price.

However electricity is not scarce. We have sufficient capacity for our needs, we don't have blackouts, we don't see factories losing their supply.

The simple fact of the matter is that the wholesale cost of generating electricity is dropping rapidly but the retail cost of buying electricity has remained static. That's price-gouging whichever way you slice it. The Government could take steps to deal with this- every other major European government has- but the Conservatives have point-blank refused to.

In addition to this George Osborne has now chosen to apply the Climate Change Levy to the producers of renewable energy, costing the sector £1bn a year, whilst increasing subsidies to the producers of North Sea gas and oil and handing out huge subsidies to companies using hydraulic fracturing to produce gas.

 

[NSEFAN]

I agree that scarcity of any commodity increases the price.

However electricity is not scarce. We have sufficient capacity for our needs, we don't have blackouts, we don't see factories losing their supply.

But the point is that a lower price cannot be offered until there is enough excess capacity. We don't have blackouts, but we are running very close to the physical limit of what our grid will provide. To offer a lower price would encourage more usage and probably result in blackouts. It's forcing us to use less electricity by making it too expensive to use.

The simple fact of the matter is that the wholesale cost of generating electricity is dropping rapidly but the retail cost of buying electricity has remained static. That's price-gouging whichever way you slice it. The Government could take steps to deal with this- every other major European government has- but the Conservatives have point-blank refused to.

The only reason that is allowed to happen is because of the lack of energy production. The fuel is cheaper but power stations are decreasing in number, thanks to the government's "Free Market'll fix it!" head-in-the-sand approach to national infrastructure. Hence the grid gets closer to 100% utilisation and at risk of blackouts. It's only now the government seems to be finally realising what a stupid approach this has been. Better late than never I guess.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I agree that scarcity of any commodity increases the price.

However electricity is not scarce. We have sufficient capacity for our needs, we don't have blackouts, we don't see factories losing their supply.

The simple fact of the matter is that the wholesale cost of generating electricity is dropping rapidly but the retail cost of buying electricity has remained static. That's price-gouging whichever way you slice it. The Government could take steps to deal with this- every other major European government has- but the Conservatives have point-blank refused to.

I'm not suggesting that this country is facing black outs so I'm not really sure why you keep repeating it. However if you had more power stations you would then have greater competition. The wholesale cost of buying gas is certainly low at the moment but the wholesale cost of generating electricity is not, or else Tata would not be paying so much for their electricity!

In addition to this George Osborne has now chosen to apply the Climate Change Levy to the producers of renewable energy, costing the sector £1bn a year, whilst increasing subsidies to the producers of North Sea gas and oil and handing out huge subsidies to companies using hydraulic fracturing to produce gas.

Which elements of renewable energy has George Osborne applied the Climate Change Levy to? This is a genuine question as I wasn't aware of this.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But the point is that a lower price cannot be offered until there is enough excess capacity. We don't have blackouts, but we are running very close to the physical limit of what our grid will provide. To offer a lower price would encourage more usage and probably result in blackouts. It's forcing us to use less electricity by making it too expensive to use.

That's EDF's story and they're sticking to it

Electricity is not scarce, and I would not expect the retail cost of electricity to decrease even if supply capacity went up. The issue is not the capacity, it is the heavily restricted number of privatised suppliers, many of whom (including GDF Suez and E.On) have a long and happy history of price-fixing and market manipulation.

Cartels don't drop prices.

Osborne has applied it to all aspects of renewable energy- wood-burning is the obvious one (he knocked one third off the share price at Drax, which has been converted to wood burning), but he's also applied it to suppliers of wind and solar energy.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Tata Steel have today annouced huge job losses of 1,200 at Scunthorpe and two sites in Lanarkshire.
This is the latest in a recent string of steel industry crisis.
Any thoughts?

 

[NSEFAN]

Electricity is not scarce, and I would not expect the retail cost of electricity to decrease even if supply capacity went up. The issue is not the capacity, it is the heavily restricted number of privatised suppliers, many of whom (including GDF Suez and E.On) have a long and happy history of price-fixing and market manipulation.

So, if the prices were to go down, you would not expect the usage to increase?

Being cynical, it may well be in the interests of the energy company to keep the demand high and the supply low. It's the same reason rail fares can go up above inflation each year. So far, the government has been awfully helpful in giving the energy industry a valid reason to get away with this, although I don't credit them with enough intelligence to think of doing that deliberately, instead putting it down to a "not my problem" attitude and general incompetence.

 

[DarloRich]

So, if the prices were to go down, you would not expect the usage to increase?

but again - does my tv need more electricity to make it work if the price is £1 per unit or £10000 per unit? OK i might leave it on standby or leave a hall light on when I go out but how much extra power could i use?

it is a con - just as the energy companies have made vast profits over the years and not reinvested in the means of generation and distribution therefore we have to pay more to sort that out!

 

[backontrack]

Same old story as Redcar, really. :roll:

 

[NSEFAN]

but again - does my tv need more electricity to make it work if the price is £1 per unit or £10000 per unit? OK i might leave it on standby or leave a hall light on when I go out but how much extra power could i use?

it is a con - just as the energy companies have made vast profits over the years and not reinvested in the means of generation and distribution therefore we have to pay more to sort that out!

This is quite off topic now, but yes higher prices force us to use fewer resources. It's one of the reasons that consumer product design is vastly superior to where it was 20 years ago, the other being regulation (esp. in the EU). A new TV will consume a lot less energy than an older one of similar performance. If there was no reason for us to use less electricity, we wouldn't.

Of course, we now have the perverse situation that importing steel from thousands of miles away is cheaper than "home-grown" steel. This simply cannot be sustainable in the long term, the prices will have to go back up once China finally abandons its quest for endless growth.

 

[Johnuk123]

I remember a few years ago a European commissioner showed a map of the future of the European Union. It was the way the forthcoming single state would be designed with certain sectors in certain areas.

I can't remember all the regions but I do remember the UK was to be designated as banking and tourism, France agriculture and Germany heavy industry.

We're well on the way to that.