• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

UK General Election 2024

Now that we are in the final throes of the campaign, who will you be voting for?

  • Labour

    Votes: 104 49.5%
  • Conservative

    Votes: 8 3.8%
  • Reform

    Votes: 18 8.6%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 57 27.1%
  • Green Party

    Votes: 15 7.1%
  • SNP

    Votes: 4 1.9%
  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • Independent

    Votes: 3 1.4%

  • Total voters
    210
Status
Not open for further replies.

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
11,093
Location
West Wiltshire
Considering from day one there's no money in the kitty there's not a lot they can do short-term. At least they aren't promising the earth and ending up delivering a small asteroid.
No commitment to all or part of HS2
No commitment to any rail electrification
No commitment to Northern Powerhouse Rail
No commitment to Elizabeth line enhancements
No commitment to Crossrail 2 or Bakerloo upgrade/extension
No commitment to new lower carbon trains

Labours (lack of commitment) appears to be worse for railways than other parties, eg Green, Lib Dem etc that actually said they will do something on the ground, rather than just a reorganisation
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

WesternLancer

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
15,089
No commitment to all or part of HS2
No commitment to any rail electrification
No commitment to Northern Powerhouse Rail
No commitment to Elizabeth line enhancements
No commitment to Crossrail 2 or Bakerloo upgrade/extension
No commitment to new lower carbon trains

Labours (lack of commitment) appears to be worse for railways than other parties, eg Green, Lib Dem etc that actually said they will do something on the ground, rather than just a reorganisation
Indeed - does not sound like Lord Adonis has had much input (the only transport minister in the last labour govt who really got things moving on rail activity IMHO - albeit rather late in the day as he did not hold the brief early enough)
 

dosxuk

Established Member
Joined
2 Jan 2011
Messages
2,435
Labours (lack of commitment) appears to be worse for railways than other parties, eg Green, Lib Dem etc that actually said they will do something on the ground, rather than just a reorganisation

But it's also the only one of those with a realistic chance of having to be implemented.
 

brad465

Veteran Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
11,445
Location
Taunton or Kent
No commitment to all or part of HS2
No commitment to any rail electrification
No commitment to Northern Powerhouse Rail
No commitment to Elizabeth line enhancements
No commitment to Crossrail 2 or Bakerloo upgrade/extension
No commitment to new lower carbon trains

Labours (lack of commitment) appears to be worse for railways than other parties, eg Green, Lib Dem etc that actually said they will do something on the ground, rather than just a reorganisation
My interpretation of their rail section is that it's very ambiguous, so they could do a lot more than is laid out. That doesn't mean more will happen, but I wouldn't rule out them ruling those things you list out.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
18,770
No commitment to all or part of HS2
No commitment to any rail electrification
No commitment to Northern Powerhouse Rail
No commitment to Elizabeth line enhancements
No commitment to Crossrail 2 or Bakerloo upgrade/extension
No commitment to new lower carbon trains

Labours (lack of commitment) appears to be worse for railways than other parties, eg Green, Lib Dem etc that actually said they will do something on the ground, rather than just a reorganisation
Which just reflects how unimportant railways are in the overall scheme of a General Election, despite what plenty on here may think.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,298
Indeed - does not sound like Lord Adonis has had much input (the only transport minister in the last labour govt who really got things moving on rail activity IMHO - albeit rather late in the day as he did not hold the brief early enough)
Well, Labour had a damascene conversion from being against high speed rail to being for it in 2009, but the present leader has never supported HS2, so we should not be surprised.

But beyond that, Labour have precious little money to spend given their desire to stick to their fiscal rules and extremely expensive other policies (triple lock and such).
 

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
9,211
Location
SE London
No commitment to all or part of HS2
No commitment to any rail electrification
No commitment to Northern Powerhouse Rail
No commitment to Elizabeth line enhancements
No commitment to Crossrail 2 or Bakerloo upgrade/extension
No commitment to new lower carbon trains

Labours (lack of commitment) appears to be worse for railways than other parties, eg Green, Lib Dem etc that actually said they will do something on the ground, rather than just a reorganisation

There are a couple of statements that seem to imply building more railways, though they are vague, and they don't cover any of the points you mention other than one of the statements might allude to Northern Powerhouse Rail.

LabourManifesto said:
Labour will end this chaos by developing a ten-year infrastructure strategy, aligned with our industrial strategy and regional development priorities, including improving rail connectivity across the north of England.

LabourManifesto said:
Labour will make the changes we need to forge ahead with new roads, railways, reservoirs, and other nationally significant infrastructure
 

telstarbox

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
6,367
Location
Wennington Crossovers
The polls are inviting comparison with the 1997 election, but maybe this one is closer to 1945;
An incumbent government who were once popular but now seem quite tired after 14 years
No money to spend
An unflashy opposition leader making fairly modest promises - but ultimately went on to achieve a good deal
Large crisis event which shook up society and left permanent changes (WWII / COVID)
Plans to build lots of houses and infrastructure
 

SynthD

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2020
Messages
2,024
Location
UK
Forgive me but I don't quite understand what you're referring to, can you possibly elaborate?
People have protested in large numbers, and in person at pro Palestinian marches (that are avidly not pro-Hamas). One of the criticisms of these marches is that they do not happen for the other wars going on now, and there is a bad-faith assumption that the protesters don't care about the victims of the other wars. Corbyn is making clear he does care about the victims of all those wars.

I would like to see Labour nab some good ideas from the other parties. Green and Lib Dem are the only likely sources. Trains, peace, and love are probably popular.
 

Energy

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2018
Messages
5,135
No commitment to all or part of HS2
No commitment to any rail electrification
No commitment to Northern Powerhouse Rail
No commitment to Elizabeth line enhancements
No commitment to Crossrail 2 or Bakerloo upgrade/extension
No commitment to new lower carbon trains

Labours (lack of commitment) appears to be worse for railways than other parties, eg Green, Lib Dem etc that actually said they will do something on the ground, rather than just a reorganisation
Louise Haigh, the Labour Secretary State for Transport, has previously wanted to reinstate 2a to Crewe which would make HS2 far more useful and would relieve the WCML greatly.

I can see why they wouldn't put it down on the manifesto. Only promising as far as Crewe gives easy criticism of the north being sidelined again, and promising full HS2 can lead them tied into an expensive promise which wouldn't win them lots of votes. Leaving the future of HS2 under creating an infrastructure plan gives them a lot more flexibility.

HS2 2b is also less finalised now, with an underground Manchester Picadilly looking less unlikely and the Liverpool - Manchester new line the Conservatives promised being potentially difficult to forget.

Rail nationalisation isn't particularly difficult to implement, has proven popular with the public and is easier to convey to voters than new infrastructure.
 

Sorcerer

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2022
Messages
2,062
Location
Liverpool
People have protested in large numbers, and in person at pro Palestinian marches (that are avidly not pro-Hamas). One of the criticisms of these marches is that they do not happen for the other wars going on now, and there is a bad-faith assumption that the protesters don't care about the victims of the other wars. Corbyn is making clear he does care about the victims of all those wars.
Ah well, I understand what you're getting at now, but personally I would not give Corbyn's views on the wars much weight because of his dangerous naivety combined with anti-NATO and arguably anti-Western views that, if used as a basis for our foreign policy, would make Britain look weak on the world stage, and that is something we definitely cannot afford right now. For what it's worth I'm glad Labour's manifesto released today has committed to NATO and the nuclear deterrent while also maintaining support for Ukraine and willingness to support a two-state solution including the recognition of a Palestinian state.
 

BrianW

Established Member
Joined
22 Mar 2017
Messages
2,131
No commitment to all or part of HS2
No commitment to any rail electrification
No commitment to Northern Powerhouse Rail
No commitment to Elizabeth line enhancements
No commitment to Crossrail 2 or Bakerloo upgrade/extension
No commitment to new lower carbon trains

Labours (lack of commitment) appears to be worse for railways than other parties, eg Green, Lib Dem etc that actually said they will do something on the ground, rather than just a reorganisation
These matters will 'arise' from Great British Railways, TfL, Metro-Mayors, in the fullness of time/ when the time is right/ in due course
 

brad465

Veteran Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
11,445
Location
Taunton or Kent
There are a couple of statements that seem to imply building more railways, though they are vague, and they don't cover any of the points you mention other than one of the statements might allude to Northern Powerhouse Rail.
As a party in opposition I suspect Labour do not get access to critical government records/information. If on entering government they suddenly learn of the proper picture, they risk having to drop several concrete commitments made without that information that it turns out are undeliverable. Therefore vague statements somewhat make sense as a party in opposition seeking government, as then they don't risk being accused of lying and/or u-turning on much of their manifesto.

However a governing party seeking re-election should be able to make more concrete pledges as they have all the info.
 

Gloster

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
12,970
Location
Up the creek
As a party in opposition I suspect Labour do not get access to critical government records/information. If on entering government they suddenly learn of the proper picture, they risk having to drop several concrete commitments made without that information that it turns out are undeliverable. Therefore vague statements somewhat make sense as a party in opposition seeking government, as then they don't risk being accused of lying and/or u-turning on much of their manifesto.

However a governing party seeking re-election should be able to make more concrete pledges as they have all the info.

I think I read earlier this year that it is the custom for leading members of a potential future government to be briefed by civil servants on various aspects of the state of the government in the run up to an election and that this started earlier in the year. However, the snap election may well mean that they have not had time to study all they would wish, so they are being cautious (or they have already realised just how bad things are).
 

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
4,847
As a party in opposition I suspect Labour do not get access to critical government records/information. If on entering government they suddenly learn of the proper picture, they risk having to drop several concrete commitments made without that information that it turns out are undeliverable. Therefore vague statements somewhat make sense as a party in opposition seeking government, as then they don't risk being accused of lying and/or u-turning on much of their manifesto.

However a governing party seeking re-election should be able to make more concrete pledges as they have all the info.
There is a convention for opposition parties to be able to talk to the civil service in advance of the election. https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainer/access-talks-civil-service
Access talks are meetings between the civil service and opposition parties, held in the run up to a general election. Because the handover of power usually takes place overnight, access talks are the only opportunity for the civil service and an incoming government to exchange information and establish relationships with each other in advance of the potential handover date.
According to https://www.globalgovernmentforum.c...ith-civil-servants-ahead-of-general-election/
Senior politicians in the UK’s opposition Labour party will start talks with civil servants on how they would run government should they win the election later this year, having been granted permission by prime minister Rishi Sunak.
So the Labour manifesto should be based on the actual picture as they’ve had several months of access.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,671
The polls are inviting comparison with the 1997 election, but maybe this one is closer to 1945;
An incumbent government who were once popular but now seem quite tired after 14 years
No money to spend
An unflashy opposition leader making fairly modest promises - but ultimately went on to achieve a good deal
Large crisis event which shook up society and left permanent changes (WWII / COVID)
Plans to build lots of houses and infrastructure
Prof John Curtice has been making the 1945 comparison for a week or two now.
'Quite tired' is a very polite way of describing the Tory party and government. 'Absolutely knackered and universally despised' would be nearer to the truth. When you get Conservative-voting commentators speculating on Sunak resigning as P.M. before the election plays out you begin to understand the extent of their despondency.
The tipping point has now been reached where a national opinion poll puts Reform one point ahead of the Tories, meaning there's a strong chance of fewer than 100 Tories being elected on July 4th, not helped in Scotland where leader Douglas Ross seems determined to lessen their chances in the one area where they might have held their own, comparatively.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,298
YouGov does show a narrowing of the polls (only a 20% lead now!), but that was to be expected.

I doubt Labour ever had a serious chance of winning 45% of the vote in the presence of several secondary parties.
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
7,230
Location
UK
Prof John Curtice has been making the 1945 comparison for a week or two now.
'Quite tired' is a very polite way of describing the Tory party and government. 'Absolutely knackered and universally despised' would be nearer to the truth. When you get Conservative-voting commentators speculating on Sunak resigning as P.M. before the election plays out you begin to understand the extent of their despondency.
The tipping point has now been reached where a national opinion poll puts Reform one point ahead of the Tories, meaning there's a strong chance of fewer than 100 Tories being elected on July 4th, not helped in Scotland where leader Douglas Ross seems determined to lessen their chances in the one area where they might have held their own, comparatively.
Unfortunately, Kier Starmer does not have John Maynard Keynes at his side to restore the Economy.
 

takno

Verified Rep - Traksy
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,581
Unfortunately, Kier Starmer does not have John Maynard Keynes at his side to restore the Economy.
John Maynard Keynes hasn't had an original thought for some time now. Ultimately great experts have to come from somewhere, and can only rise to greatness under a supportive government. There's no JMK, but maybe there's somebody just as important waiting in the wings.

To be honest I'm getting a bit bored with the never-ending search for a new star economist on the left. The deification of various idiots seems to get followed by them seeking political office and then sinking the left in their respective countries. Having somebody emerge under the control of a solid generalist seems like a much better situation.
 

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,036
Externalities estimates like that are notoriously fraught and depend on value judgements that are not at all simple to make.

It doesn't help that these estimates are almost always done by people with a pretty clear agenda.
(I do this sort of analysis for a living, but ultimately I am not sure I really trust any of them beyond the broadest strokes).

One factor which is fairly reliable is the £15bn cost of road accidents which the government quotes in some of its documents.

Whilst that still leaves about £15bn before you reach the limit of the raised taxes, there's quite a lot of factors which would quickly erode that. Of course, how quickly and how far is still up for debate.

One thing which is worth noting is that there's also a lot of private money which is spent on roads (almost all from developers to mitigate traffic from me developments), as that impacts on build costs and often funds things which should be delivered by councils it muddies the calculations. As is it extra tax income (although often it's spent directly by the developers) or should it be spending which should be counted as a cost of government (at whatever level), should it actually just be a building tax so that it could be used to build bigger projects (for example it's it better that over a 15 year window 1 million homes are built with a cost of £5,000 worth of small schemes (probably quite a lot would be spent on fairly minor improvements like upgrades to bus stops) from each house, or that money (£5bn) is used to build Crossrail 2?

The other thing to consider is that it'll be impossible to have no railway without a significant change to the life of vast numbers of people (even those who don't use trains), even if it were possible the cost to make the required changes would make the cost of running the railways look cheap. It would also require a LOT more land, which then becomes a problem as everything gets spread out to provide the required parking, which makes walking and cycling harder, so even more people drive.

A small increase (even +20% would likely be less than £100 a year for the majority of people as on a fuel bill of £900 per year it's an extra £60, but given that car ownership is £3,800 a year as a percentage of that total cost is quite small - and again at 20% uplift that's quite a lot more than any would be suggesting even over the term of the parliament, and it probably wouldn't need to be anywhere near that high) on fuel duty is probably useful to do. Especially given that it's likely to not impact as many people as it used to, due to electric cars, and just the thought of an increase (even if the numbers aren't known) is likely to alter some people's travel behaviour.

For example it may mean that they walk a bit more, or they look to swap to an electric car. Both are likely to be useful, for example people being fitter and costing the NHS less and assisting with the move towards electric cars or making people look at the total cost of their car ownership and whether it's truly worth doing so.
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
11,093
Location
West Wiltshire
Thursday evenings YouGov poll tracker update

Labour slipped to 37%
Reform 19%
Conservatives 18%
Lib Dems 14%
Greens 7%
SNP 3%
Plaid Cymru 1%
others 2%

based on sample of 2211 adults June 12th and 13th


So Labour and Conservatives continue to fall whilst smaller parties take higher share. Are we seeing death of 2 party politics ?
 

deltic

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2010
Messages
3,714
As a party in opposition I suspect Labour do not get access to critical government records/information. If on entering government they suddenly learn of the proper picture, they risk having to drop several concrete commitments made without that information that it turns out are undeliverable. Therefore vague statements somewhat make sense as a party in opposition seeking government, as then they don't risk being accused of lying and/or u-turning on much of their manifesto.

However a governing party seeking re-election should be able to make more concrete pledges as they have all the info.
Apart from items to do with national security it is difficult to think of any issue that would have a material impact on an incoming government that isn't known about in advance. This regular claim by all oppositions that we need to see the books first before making commitments is a smokescreen, information on the state of government finances is all in the public domain.

Labour shadow cabinet members have had access to the civil service for a few months and have had regular meetings with departments.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,913
Location
Mold, Clwyd
No commitment to all or part of HS2
No commitment to any rail electrification
No commitment to Northern Powerhouse Rail
No commitment to Elizabeth line enhancements
No commitment to Crossrail 2 or Bakerloo upgrade/extension
No commitment to new lower carbon trains

Labours (lack of commitment) appears to be worse for railways than other parties, eg Green, Lib Dem etc that actually said they will do something on the ground, rather than just a reorganisation
Plaid want to take £4 billion out of the UK rail kitty for Wales' share of the HS2 budget.
They won't get chance to implement that, but it shows grievance politics at work.
Labour is also on shaky ground locally in Wales thanks to mistakes by the new First Minister.
And our county council (Labour-led NOC) can't even empty our bins.
 

Magdalia

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2022
Messages
7,373
Location
The Fens
Unfortunately, Kier Starmer does not have John Maynard Keynes at his side to restore the Economy.

John Maynard Keynes hasn't had an original thought for some time now. Ultimately great experts have to come from somewhere, and can only rise to greatness under a supportive government. There's no JMK, but maybe there's somebody just as important waiting in the wings.
Sir Kier Starmer does have Rachel Reeves, who has an MSc in Economics and has worked as an economist in the Bank of England.

Maybe, at the end of the century, Reeves could be highly regarded, as Keynes is now? I won't be here to find out!
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
7,230
Location
UK
Sir Kier Starmer does have Rachel Reeves, who has an MSc in Economics and has worked as an economist in the Bank of England.

Maybe, at the end of the century, Reeves could be highly regarded, as Keynes is now? I won't be here to find out!
Perhaps, but so far it seems that all we are seeing is a commitment to Noeliberalisim and Austerity.
 

BrianW

Established Member
Joined
22 Mar 2017
Messages
2,131
John Maynard Keynes hasn't had an original thought for some time now. Ultimately great experts have to come from somewhere, and can only rise to greatness under a supportive government. There's no JMK, but maybe there's somebody just as important waiting in the wings.

To be honest I'm getting a bit bored with the never-ending search for a new star economist on the left. The deification of various idiots seems to get followed by them seeking political office and then sinking the left in their respective countries. Having somebody emerge under the control of a solid generalist seems like a much better situation.
How about that Middle-of-the roundabouts Milton Keynes; keep left?
Sir Kier Starmer does have Rachel Reeves, who has an MSc in Economics and has worked as an economist in the Bank of England.

Maybe, at the end of the century, Reeves could be highly regarded, as Keynes is now? I won't be here to find out!

Reevesism- a kind of reevesisionist eek-oh-no-a mist?

Did the late Queen get an answer to her perceptive question why economists had not foreseen the coming credit crunch?
 

YorkRailFan

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2023
Messages
3,312
Location
York
Wow, Keir Starmer to the political right of Nigel Farage on this issue.
NEW: Nigel Farage says Reform UK will scrap the two-child benefit cap

When told that it will increase the benefits bill, he says it's important to "support families"
 

Fragezeichnen

Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
433
Location
Somewhere
Yes: https://www.ma.imperial.ac.uk/~bin06/M3A22/queen-lse.pdf

When Your Majesty visited the London School of Economics last November, you quite rightly asked: why had nobody noticed that the credit crunch was on its way? The British Academy convened a forum on 17 June 2009 to debate your question, with contributions from a range of experts from business, the City, its regulators, academia, and government. This letter summarises the views of the participants and the factors that they cited in our discussion, and we hope that it offers an answer to your question.
 
Last edited:

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,671
Nigel Farage could see his attempt to become an MP after July 4th foiled by votes in Clacton going not only to incumbent Tory MP Giles Watling but firstly a UKIP candidate and secondly an Independent called Tony Mack, who was the agreed Reform candidate for the seat before Farage exercised his droit de seigneur. To use another phrase from a European language wouldn't it be schadenfreude if Mack secured enough votes to deny NF victory?

P.S. NF in this context equals Nigel Farage, but back in the day it stood for National Front, a far right nationalist, racist movement. Just saying...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top