UK General Election 2024

[aavm]

Cartoon. Kid, opening his national service call-up papers, says "My parents hate me so much they voted Tory"

What were we thinking?

I've all but given up hope that Rishi had any sort of plan. Even Conservatives aren't going to vote Conservative at this rate.

BTW, the Milk Shaker, according to the Mail, is an 'only fans' model, so probably did it for her own publicity as much as anything else. Hope she gets a good custodial sentence.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Just don't see the point of the debates if what we actually get is a shoutier version of PMQs (although possibly with a more intelligent audience)

A pair of rigorous half hour interviews pre-recorded earlier in the evening and then broadcast back to back would be better

 

[brad465]

I’m finding the debate a predictably hard watch. Can’t help feeling that Sunak is getting away with talking over the top of everyone too much.

Not that it’s always easy moderating things of course.

I was going to suggest that every time one of the leaders talks over someone they get a bucket of water tipped on them from above, but then I remembered Sunak is used to that so won't be bothered by it

 

[edwin_m]

BTW, the Milk Shaker, according to the Mail, is an 'only fans' model, so probably did it for her own publicity as much as anything else. Hope she gets a good custodial sentence.

Shouldn't that be a creamy sentence?

 

[aavm]

Just don't see the point of the debates if what we actually get is a shoutier version of PMQs

Need a host like Andrew Neil

 

[SynthD]

A pair of rigorous half hour interviews pre-recorded earlier in the evening and then broadcast back to back would be better

I’d like a timer on the amount of time each candidate spent talking about their own policies versus their opponents imagined policies.

 

[Howardh]

I’m finding the debate a predictably hard watch. Can’t help feeling that Sunak is getting away with talking over the top of everyone too much.

Not that it’s always easy moderating things of course.

Total win for Count Binface.

 

[Sorcerer]

So I completely forgot about the debate this evening but based on some YouGov polls it seems Starmer and Sunak have been evenly matched such as how they performed. On issues that mattered though it seemed Sunak only came ahead in taxes. For those who did watch it, what would be your verdict, and how likely do you think it is to change the opinion polling and overall result?

 

[brad465]

So I completely forgot about the debate this evening but based on some YouGov polls it seems Starmer and Sunak have been evenly matched such as how they performed. On issues that mattered though it seemed Sunak only came ahead in taxes. For those who did watch it, what would be your verdict, and how likely do you think it is to change the opinion polling and overall result?

Apparently Johnson vs Corbyn in the first head-to-head in 2019 was also 51/49 in favour of the Tory leader, and did next to nothing to change the result. I expect this to be similar.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If Farage did win Clacton, I can't help but think he'd be a spectacularly awful constituency MP - I just don't think he'd care about his constituents or even be there much of the time

I'm certainly not convinced that Farage has more than an ounce of integrity in him, but your prediction could probably apply to 90% of candidates standing in the election. Whether that be the ones putting Gaza front-and-centre of their campaigns, or the Tories trying their best to act like their party hasn't been in government for the last 14 years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2024 ==

She didn't look like a Guardian reader.

Quite... pretty much nobody under the age of 30 reads newspapers of any sort!

 

[birchesgreen]

After watching the debate i am now clear in my mind, ITV should never do a leader's debate ever again.

 

[Class 466]

After watching the debate i am now clear in my mind, ITV should never do a leader's debate ever again.

The 2019 debates were abysmally moderated with poor questioning, same again 5 years later.

 

[Whistler40145]

Only Polling Day will give the true results, not a Leaders debate

 

[Halwynd]

So I completely forgot about the debate this evening but based on some YouGov polls it seems Starmer and Sunak have been evenly matched such as how they performed. On issues that mattered though it seemed Sunak only came ahead in taxes. For those who did watch it, what would be your verdict, and how likely do you think it is to change the opinion polling and overall result?

One came across as slightly hesitant but thoughtful and able to relate to the audience, the other a used car salesman in a Top Man suit full of patter...

 

[birchesgreen]

The moderator was completely out of her depth, i think they had a 45 second limit for answers? If so then thats ridiculous.

 

[Cross City]

So it turns out Sunak's main attack line was a lie (who'd've guessed)

BBC:
The chief Treasury civil servant wrote to Labour two days ago saying that the Conservatives’ assessment of their tax plans "should not be presented as having been produced by the civil service".

The letter from James Bowler, the Treasury permanent secretary, risks undermining Rishi Sunak’s claim in last night’s debate that Labour’s plans include £38bn of uncosted spending, which he says would mean £2,000 of tax rises per working household.

In a letter to Darren Jones, the shadow chief secretary to the Treasury, Bowler writes: "As you will expect, civil servants were not involved in the production or presentation of the Conservative Party’s document 'Labour’s Tax Rises' or in the calculation of the total figure used ... the £38bn figure used in the Conservative Party’s publication includes costs beyond those provided by the Civil Service".

"I agree that any costings derived from other sources or produced by other organisations should not be presented as having been produced by the Civil Service," he adds.

For context: Last night, Sunak repeatedly claimed that Labour's spending plans would result in a £2,000 tax rise for Britons. As our colleagues at BBC Verify pointed out, the Conservatives have come up with this figure by adding up how much they claim Labour’s spending plans would cost, and dividing this by the number of UK households with at least one person working.

Sunak said the costings had been worked out by impartial civil servants, but it was put to Energy Secretary Claire Coutinho this morning that they are actually based on costings fed to the Treasury by so-called spads (special advisers).

 

[birchesgreen]

Doesn't matter, the untruth was repeated enough times that it will reach more people than any rebuttal, Starmer should have struck it down immediately.

 

[nw1]

So what effect do people think the debate (which I didn't see) on the election?

Does it substantially increase the risk of the Tories somehow getting the most seats (though without a majority, which I think can be ruled out) and thus effectively winning?

I find it sad that the UK seems to have a disproportionate aversion to paying tax, it's one of the characteristics of this country which I've always been uneasy with. The Republican disease, if you will. Don't people realise that tax pays for hospitals, for schools, for public transport, for defence, and for many other things?

I certainly hope Sunak doesn't end up at no.10 with a wafer thin lead in a hung parliament due to people being overly-fearful of paying tax. Better tax than a non-functioning country.

 

[birchesgreen]

I find it sad that the UK seems to have a disproportionate aversion to paying tax, it's one of the characteristics of this country which I've always been uneasy with. Don't people realise that tax pays for hospitals, for schools, for public transport, for defence, and for many other things?

To be honest i think a lot of people seem to think not.

 

[edwin_m]

So what effect do people think the debate (which I didn't see) on the election?

Does it substantially increase the risk of the Tories somehow getting the most seats and thus effectively winning?

I find it sad that the UK seems to have a disproportionate aversion to paying tax, it's one of the characteristics of this country which I've always been uneasy with. Don't people realise that tax pays for hospitals, for schools, for public transport, for defence, and for many other things?

I certainly hope Sunak doesn't end up at no.10 with a wafer thin lead in a hung parliament due to people being overly-fearful of paying tax. Better tax than a non-functioning country.

I believe the LibDems have ruled out working with the Tories and the SNP are unlikely to, so a Tory PM without a majority is only plausible in the 2017-like situation where they need a few votes from the DUP and can "persuade" them to oblige. In a hung parliament the most likely outcome is the LibDems supporting a minority Labour government, hopefully without needing SNP support too. But all the odds still seem to be in favour of a large Labour majority, and I doubt this debate has shifted the dial much. I suspect most have decided not to vote Tory based on their dismal track record, some will vote Tory whatever happens, and neither of these groups is amenable to persuasion. Any Tory-Reform switching may affect the size of the majority but not the overall outcome.

 

[nw1]

To be honest i think a lot of people seem to think not.

Extraordinary if so, it's the kind of basic thing that you'd think most people would learn in their teens.

 

[Cross City]

Doesn't matter, the untruth was repeated enough times that it will reach more people than any rebuttal, Starmer should have struck it down immediately.

I'd argue Sunak being called a liar this week by the media and being quizzed on it and about why he lied in the next debate will stick in the minds more.

 

[birchesgreen]

I'd argue Sunak being called a liar this week by the media and being quizzed on it and about why he lied in the next debate will stick in the minds more.

Right wing tabloids have the tax claim all over their front pages today.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I find it sad that the UK seems to have a disproportionate aversion to paying tax, it's one of the characteristics of this country which I've always been uneasy with. The Republican disease, if you will.

Disproportionate compared to what? If you mean, compared to other countries, I don't see any reason to believe the UK is particularly out of line with most of the World in our attitude towards tax.

Don't people realise that tax pays for hospitals, for schools, for public transport, for defence, and for many other things?

It does. The problem is that it also at the same time, by taking away people's individual income, reduces people's ability to pay for their food, mortgages, rent, energy bills, holidays, etc. Not only that but in some cases it can directly harm the economy by discouraging innovation and investment. So you have to have a balance. The other problem is a suspicion that a lot of tax ends up paying not for schools and hospitals etc. but for consultants and bureaucrats etc. Hard to tell how much that is the case, but to my mind it's not helped either by the well known cost overruns in various Government-sponsored projects, or by the way all the political parties talk glibly about spending £X Bn on whatever project, but they almost never talk about trying to make sure tax money is spent wisely or efficiently.

Ultimately people (all over the World) tend to be very sensitive to how much they take home at the end of the month, which is why Tory attacks themed on 'Labour will take £XK/month off you' tend to be so effective (even if they are often based on very dodgy figures).

 

[RT4038]

Extraordinary if so, it's the kind of basic thing that you'd think most people would learn in their teens.

I think it is probably more about what the taxation is being spent on (public transport I don't want to use, welfare for people who don't want to work etc etc, or what levels are being bought etc) and how much is being wasted.

 

[najaB]

I think it is probably more about what the taxation is being spent on (public transport I don't want to use, welfare for people who don't want to work etc etc, or what levels are being bought etc) and how much is being wasted.

More accurately, the perception of the above. In almost all instances those in opposition to the government of the day try to portray the situation as worse than it actually is.

 

[Gloster]

‘Taxes are what we pay for civilised society.‘ (*) Taxes are what allows you to live a decent need life, free of fear and want. If you don’t pay, you don’t get the return and the only winners are the bullies. It is to be noted that, in my opinion, the countries that most fairly manage their education systems have the least complaints about tax rates, although they are often on the higher side.

* - Said by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Junior, a member of the US Supreme Court in 1927. These are probably the correct words, although it has been paraphrased and misquoted many times.

 

[nw1]

Disproportionate compared to what? If you mean, compared to other countries, I don't see any reason to believe the UK is particularly out of line with most of the World in our attitude towards tax.

It's the sort of thing that has come up on previous discussions on here regarding public transport, namely that some other western countries, or more populous regions of said countries, have a better (more integrated, maybe cheaper) public transport system because they're willing to pay for it via tax. If it's true for public transport I'm guessing it may be true for other aspects of public services too - in other words a greater recognition of the utility of tax.

 

[AlterEgo]

BTW, the Milk Shaker, according to the Mail, is an 'only fans' model, so probably did it for her own publicity as much as anything else. Hope she gets a good custodial sentence.

As if you're going to jail for throwing a milkshake!

 

[JamesT]

It's the sort of thing that has come up on previous discussions on here regarding public transport, namely that some other western countries, or more populous regions of said countries, have a better (more integrated, maybe cheaper) public transport system because they're willing to pay for it via tax. If it's true for public transport I'm guessing it may be true for other aspects of public services too - in other words a greater recognition of the utility of tax.

Overall spending is comparable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_spending_as_percentage_of_GDP sorting by the spending column.
UK is listed as 45%. Which is much less than say France or Italy at 58% and 56% respectively. Germany and Denmark are 49%. But then Netherlands are 44%, Switzerland are 33%, but they are a very different type of economy from the rest.