UK General Election 2024

[bspahh]

Council Tax is inherently unfair as it has no correlation to income; In my street for example one home has 4 adults working full time while another, of the same size, has 2 pensioners, the first home is however in a lower Council Tax band! AFAIK no party has committed to abolishing Council Tax altogether and replacing it with a much fairer local income tax, although IIRC the SNP did have reform in a past manifesto; But to be fair to them they are not alone in not wishing to grasp this particular nettle.

If you want to have a flat tax rate for the country, then an income tax might work. If you have an income tax that varies, you will get loads of people registered in areas where the tax rate is low. It will cost money to track where people actually are living.

When I was a student, I was in a big house with expensive council tax rate, with 6 bedrooms. Most of these were students who were exempt from council tax. When one student finished their course, but stayed in the house, whilst they looked for a job, they got a bill for the council tax as if they were living in a big expensive house on their own. They would get a job and move, leaving the council to try and collect the debt from the remaining students.

Its a lot easier to track the location of buildings, as they don't move as much.

 

[Backroom_boy]

I also forgot that generation wanting youngsters to do national service, even though they never did it either!

Exactly; you would have to have been born in the 30's or before to have done National Service

 

[Snow1964]

Council Tax is inherently unfair as it has no correlation to income; In my street for example one home has 4 adults working full time while another, of the same size, has 2 pensioners, the first home is however in a lower Council Tax band! AFAIK no party has committed to abolishing Council Tax altogether and replacing it with a much fairer local income tax, although IIRC the SNP did have reform in a past manifesto; But to be fair to them they are not alone in not wishing to grasp this particular nettle.

Council tax in England is based on historic house values, from 33 years ago.

I think I read somewhere that about 7m homes have notional value because didn't exist then, having been built since 1991. And a similar number have been extended or had loft conversions etc since, most of which have not been rebranded.

At simplest level ought to do a revaluation to current values and adjust the multiplier to 2025 values

I am not convinced by the income based argument, higher council tax band is supposed to reflect more expensive houses so is wealth based, rather than income based.

If you wanted to change the system, could just as easily base it on energy rating, low tax for those who have invested in energy efficiency, and helping meet climate goals. But downside would make it harder for those with poorly insulated homes to get out of spiral of big energy bills.

Personally I think the wealth based system is better, but then we also need to build more retirement homes (not small retirement flats for those over 80) so people in 60s and 70s where family has grown up don't hoard big family houses because nothing suitable to move to. None of the parties have grasped housing properly, moving is easy, finding a suitable sized home due to lack of them is problem.

 

[jon0844]

Why do right-wing parties insist on bringing us back to the past? Was the 1950s as good as the generation made out to be? You still had rationing in the 50s, the disabled got sent to those horrible asylums where they were treated horribly. Homosexuality was still illegal, racism was a big thing. Horrible working conditions in the mines and in factories Teachers physically beating Kids up at school, the teachers my family had at school back in that era, were abusers, and the teachers got away with it, because kids didn't get believed. People were still living in slums. Capital Punishment was still a thing, and I'm sure back then innocent people got hung for something they didn't do. We should be going forward not backwards.

I had a member of my family back in the 1950s she one of the last women in the country to get the death penalty, it was proven she did her crime though.

This is where survivorship bias kicks in. The people still alive today didn't die, so it was all good.. and they aren't really bothered about those who suffered or actually died due to poor working conditions, lack of healthcare, lack of health and safety rules etc.

Facebook is always full of people saying they used to play in the street and nothing bad happened.

My dad used to play in a street, in Wood Green, in the 1950s growing up. Guess what, you wouldn't be playing in that street today (or even since car ownership went through the roof in the 70s and 80s). Perhaps LTNs might make it a little safer, but things have changed. And I am sure these people aren't proposing we get rid of all cars to go back to the 50s? In fact, they're doing the exact opposite as they're against EVs, ULEZ, LTN and building cycle lanes etc.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think I read somewhere that about 7m homes have notional value because didn't exist then, having been built since 1991. And a similar number have been extended or had loft conversions etc since, most of which have not been rebranded.

There's another issue: If the house valuations were kept up-to-date, that would give people a perverse disincentive to make home improvements. If you're wondering whether you can afford to do a loft conversion, then knowing that, if you go ahead and pay lots of money to do it, one of your 'rewards' will be a bigger council tax bill every year forever is not going to help! Considering the UK faces an acute shortage of living accommodation, the last thing we want to do is discourage people from housing improvements.

(To my mind, that's not really an argument against updating the valuations though - more like an argument against council tax on principle).

I am not convinced by the income based argument, higher council tax band is supposed to reflect more expensive houses so is wealth based, rather than income based.

It's not really wealth-based though because it's only measuring one form of wealth. You could have £10 Million tucked away in shares and bank accounts etc., and it would make no difference to your council tax bill. But have a tenth of that value as a home and you'll find yourself paying a very high council tax.

 

[Magdalia]

Council Tax is inherently unfair as it has no correlation to income; In my street for example one home has 4 adults working full time while another, of the same size, has 2 pensioners, the first home is however in a lower Council Tax band! AFAIK no party has committed to abolishing Council Tax altogether and replacing it with a much fairer local income tax, although IIRC the SNP did have reform in a past manifesto; But to be fair to them they are not alone in not wishing to grasp this particular nettle.

If you want to have a flat tax rate for the country, then an income tax might work. If you have an income tax that varies, you will get loads of people registered in areas where the tax rate is low. It will cost money to track where people actually are living.

When I was a student, I was in a big house with expensive council tax rate, with 6 bedrooms. Most of these were students who were exempt from council tax. When one student finished their course, but stayed in the house, whilst they looked for a job, they got a bill for the council as if they were living in a big expensive house on their own. They would get a job and move, leaving the council to try and collect the debt from the remaining students.

Its a lot easier to track the location of buildings, as they don't move as much.

Council tax in England is based on historic house values, from 33 years ago.

I think I read somewhere that about 7m homes have notional value because didn't exist then, having been built since 1991. And a similar number have been extended or had loft conversions etc since, most of which have not been rebranded.

At simplest level ought to do a revaluation to current values and adjust the multiplier to 2025 values

Council Tax is not an income tax, it is a property tax. Strictly speaking it is a hybrid because it also has a poll tax element.

There are 3 very good economic reasons for property taxes. The first is that land and buildings are very difficult to hide, so virtually impossible to avoid. The second is that property taxes are cheap to collect, which is why they are used for local government finance. The third is that taxing property encourages more efficient use of it. With regard to the last of these council tax is not a very effective tax, mainly because it is too low, and because it is regressive, with the biggest properties getting the most favourable tax rates.

Council Tax won't be reformed or abolished. It is all too difficult, and not worth the effort for the amount of revenue it raises. In particular a revaluation isn't going to happen because anyone who goes up a band (or possibly up more than one band) is going to be hit by a very big increase in their council tax bill.

The Blair/Brown government looked at reform but ran a mile from it. Since then the issue has been managed by central government capping council tax increases, and this has now been going on for about 20 years. As a result, for most people, council tax is actually a bargain, the only grumblers are the people for whom the bargain isn't quite as big as their neighbours'.

 

[Trestrol]

Council tax in England is based on historic house values, from 33 years ago.

Thing is nobody is going to suggest that all houses are rebranded. It would be a vote looser for any party. The councils would love it. More revenue for them to squander on vanity projects. Nobody wants to change the status quo the NHS is the prime example. Outdated working and staff levels in certain areas. But as soon as you mention trying to change something it's privatisation of the NHS. Some areas of the NHS are overstretched I get that. But my recent interaction with it was quite different. I had an operation on my foot six weeks ago, non urgent or life threatening. From me seeing the consultant to having the op was 8 weeks, it would have been 10 but there was a cancellation. If I'd gone to another hospital slightly further from home it would have been less again. Throughput of day surgery on the day was good with lots of patients seen. Clinic check up 2 weeks after loads of nurses standing around doing nothing. One had come from another clinic up the corridor as nothing doing there. As another example I went to the eye clinic, loads of nurses stand around with nothing to do. It is a busy clinic so it's not due to lack of patients. Their primary role seems to be when you arrive to do an eye test they boot you back out to the waiting area. Then take you to various tests done by others. One of the doctors one time I was there took me straight into the consultanting room did the eye test and my eye exam and I was done in 20 minutes. I commented this was unusual to him. He said some of the practices they had to do were unnecessary and the way they worked could be more efficient just they have to do things a certain way.

 

[Magdalia]

The councils would love it. More revenue for them to squander on vanity projects.

This is not correct. A revaluation of properties would have no impact on the overall amount of Council Tax collected. That is set by each council in its annual budget. All a revaluation would do is redistribute the existing total council tax collected in a different way.

 

[Oxfordblues]

At the Federal election in Germany on 5 March 1933 the turnout was 88.7% of the electorate. It was won by the NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers' Party). Turnout in the UK next Thursday is expected to be around 67% with a significant minority not bothering to vote because they don't care who's in government. About a third of people seem to have no interest in politics but are ready to complain about those in power. I believe there should be some form of compulsion, or at least incentive, to increase the proportion.

 

[renegademaster]

Labour would need to commit to giving councils more money, or taking back some of the duties into central Government control

Imo Council tax should be eliminated completely, replaced with some rejigging of national taxes, which would be granted back to them based on demographics. A Borough with lots of old people and/or unemployed should get more than somewhere with lots of young professionals who will hardly touch council services.
Councils are cutting services like bin collections or infrastructure maintenance to pay for social care , which will see taxpayers move out to greener , hurting their finances more

 

[ainsworth74]

The reality is that increasingly Councils are social care providers who have a sideline in providing other local services like bin collections, grass mowing and highway maintenance. Social care is just going to eat more and more of council budgets and squeeze out their other services unless and until we grapple with the cost of social care.

 

[renegademaster]

The reality is that increasingly Councils are social care providers who have a sideline in providing other local services like bin collections, grass mowing and highway maintenance. Social care is just going to eat more and more of council budgets and squeeze out their other services unless and until we grapple with the cost of social care.

I don't think local authorities should necessarily be decoupled from social care (can Westminster manage your local care home better?), but the fiscal aspect should be.

 

[JonathanH]

It would be a vote looser for any party.

At some point, political parties are going to have to reach a consensus on 'difficult policies'. Perpetuating populist and unaffordable policies just because the alternative would lose votes is just continuing to build up problems for the future.

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't think local authorities should necessarily be decoupled from social care (can Westminster manage your local care home better?), but the fiscal aspect should be.

Oh yes I don't think the administration needs to necessarily be taken away from local councils but the current funding regime absolutely needs reform.

 

[BrianW]

Imo Council tax should be eliminated completely, replaced with some rejigging of national taxes, which would be granted back to them based on demographics. A Borough with lots of old people and/or unemployed should get more than somewhere with lots of young professionals who will hardly touch council services.
Councils are cutting services like bin collections or infrastructure maintenance to pay for social care , which will see taxpayers move out to greener , hurting their finances more

That's what 'Rate Support Grant' was intended to do, so poorer areas were supported. Sadly, richer, 'Hard-working' people don't like 'subsidising' the 'workshy'. 'Greener', less densely developed areas tend to be populated by comparatively more well-off (and conservative -voting) people, represented by low-taxing Conservative councils; whereas run-down inner-city de-industrailised economically-deprived areas are populated by similarly-described people who are represented by 'High-spending Labour Councils', who spend more because there is more need.

At some point, political parties are going to have to reach a consensus on 'difficult policies'. Perpetuating populist and unaffordable policies just because the alternative would lose votes is just continuing to build up problems for the future.

'Cakeism' rules; and free lunch all round please. People might say they will vote for higher taxes, for something they support- like the NHS- but they don't.

 

[Busaholic]

Tactically as well as morally wrong in my view. This is something that satisfies the base who will vote for them anyway, and puts off those who might consider voting for Reform but will also consider other parties.

I don't disagree with you there, but I don't believe that's Farage's thinking.

 

[SynthD]

I’ve nearly had a full set of leaflets, including two from Green. Someone should tell them about reduce before reuse and recycle.

There's another issue: If the house valuations were kept up-to-date, that would give people a perverse disincentive to make home improvements. If you're wondering whether you can afford to do a loft conversion, then knowing that, if you go ahead and pay lots of money to do it, one of your 'rewards' will be a bigger council tax bill every year forever is not going to help! Considering the UK faces an acute shortage of living accommodation, the last thing we want to do is discourage people from housing improvements.

(To my mind, that's not really an argument against updating the valuations though - more like an argument against council tax on principle).



It's not really wealth-based though because it's only measuring one form of wealth. You could have £10 Million tucked away in shares and bank accounts etc., and it would make no difference to your council tax bill. But have a tenth of that value as a home and you'll find yourself paying a very high council tax.

People who spend tens, probably low hundreds, of thousands of pounds on an extension then afford to fit out the room, upgrade the furniture over time, paint it, light it, heat it. Council tax is not a real concern there.

It's a regressive wealth tax, because among home-owners, millionaires have less of their wealth in the residence. A true wealth tax, which is inevitably progressive, doesn't really overlap with council tax and shouldn't replace it.

 

[Sorcerer]

Surprisingly I received a leaflet for the Conservative candidate in my constituency even though it's kind of redundant given that pretty much all Liverpool seats are some of the safest Labour seats in the country. But not surprisingly they have resigned themselves to being the foregone losers and are playing the "don't let Keir Starmer have a supermajority" fearmongering. Because apparently large majorities only concern the Conservative Party when it's not one of their own like they've had for the past 5 years. Should they fall behind the Lib Dems despite having double the share of the vote I have no doubt they'll be crying out for electoral reform as well.

 

[brad465]

Farage probably forgot that the UK has had first hand experience of Russia's dirty tactics: we had two state-sponsored poisonings on UK soil from Russia, one of them leading to the death of an innocent civilian and severe health problems to several others. There were also 10 UK citizens killed on the MH17 flight shot down (the loss of 193 Dutch citizens goes a long way to Dutch support for Ukraine being very high as well).

Staying with Reform they've had to drop another 3 candidates over offensive remarks:

Reform UK drops three candidates over offensive comments

The candidates will still appear on the ballot paper as it is too late to remove them.

www.bbc.co.uk

Reform UK has dropped three of its candidates following reports they had made offensive comments, a spokesperson has confirmed.
However, Edward Oakenfull, who is standing in Derbyshire Dales; Robert Lomas, a candidate in Barnsley North, and Leslie Lilley, standing in Southend East and Rochford, will still appear on the ballot paper as Reform candidates as it is too late for them to be removed.
It comes after leader Nigel Farage disowned the candidates during an appearance on BBC Question Time on Friday evening, when their remarks were put to him.
Mr Farage told the programme: "I want nothing to do with them."

Warning: This story contains language that may offend
Mr Oakenfull posted derogatory comments about the IQ of sub-Saharan Africans on social media last year. He previously told the BBC the remarks had been taken out of context.
Robert Lomas reportedly said black people should "get off [their] lazy arses" and stop acting "like savages". The comments were reported by the Times on 8 June, with Reform at the time claiming they were "out of context part quotations" and it needed more time to respond.
Leslie Lilley reportedly described people arriving on small boats as "scum" in a social media post, adding: "I hope your family get robbed, beaten or attacked."
Asked about the comments on a BBC Question Times Leaders' Special, Mr Farage said: "You get people in all parties saying bad things and wrong things."
However, he argued this was partly the consequence of having to find candidates quickly following the surprise announcement that there would be a general election in July.

 

[Kaliwax]

But if someone in the labour party said something similar about white people, right wingers would be demanding for them to be resign, throw the book at them, and expose them everywhere.

 

[takno]

I don't think local authorities should necessarily be decoupled from social care (can Westminster manage your local care home better?), but the fiscal aspect should be.

The LA is pretty comprehensively decoupled from most social care provision. They largely just shuffle their money (and sometimes your money) off to entirely private providers, who parade around the place in NHS uniforms because that's the coolest logo.

Sometimes they will provide an overworked social worker to make some random phone calls and get in the way while the actual NHS, and the NHS cosplayers politely work around them.

In principle I agree that local authorities (ideally borough rather than county) are the best people to provide social care, but that's not what they're doing. In terms of what they are doing, they're rarely particularly good at pure financial administration, and when all the provision is contracted out they are often more at risk of the whole thing being the result of backhanders and golf club arrangements.

Moreover there are huge issues with places like Devon having pensioners move there when they retire, and then creating a completely unmanageable burden on the local council. Much as it amuses me to see pensioner-elected Tory councils being overwhelmed, it would be a lot easier to just set national budgets for this (with appropriate local variations for geography and necessary pay differentials).

 

[PGAT]

Whether Farage is very clever in terms of IQ is debatable at least (a master at Dulwich College who'd had charge of him over a period of time thought not) but he's cunning and devious with plenty of contacts from his dabbling in the Establishment that he claims to abhor .With the Putin/Ukraine stuff at least he knows exactly what's he doing: a poll done by BMG Research for the i newspaper published yesterday, although showing the Reform vote down from 18 to 15% also revealed 13% of them blamed both Ukraine and Russia for the war with another 12% blaming the West entirely. Sometimes the parallels between Farage and Galloway come into clarity!

My apologies I can't do links, but I have the physical newspaper in front of me.

I think those are fluctuations between polls. I habe seen many polls recently putting Reform ahead of the Conservatives with the craziest having Reform at 21% and Conservatives at 15%

 

[takno]

I think those are fluctuations between polls. I habe seen many polls recently putting Reform ahead of the Conservatives with the craziest having Reform at 21% and Conservatives at 15%

Worth being slightly aware that there are more organisations than ever before producing more polls from more polling companies. Whilst there has been a growth in MRP polling, which can produce more accurate outcomes, most providers are just leaning on panels of around 1000 of the type of oddball characters who willingly fill out long internet surveys, sometimes for money or free credit in online games.

Just a gut instinct, but it seems fairly likely that, the sort of people who hang out on TikTok consuming Russian disinformation and other assorted right wing extremism are more likely to fill these out than they are to be a registered voter in the UK who will actually go to the trouble of voting.

 

[AlterEgo]

But if someone in the labour party said something similar about white people, right wingers would be demanding for them to be resign, throw the book at them, and expose them everywhere.

That already happened in Clacton.

 

[Kaliwax]

The Lib Dem candidate in my area is extremely hard to reach, it as if he has given up and i can't see any campaigns from them at all, unlike the other parties, and no leaflets either. No contact details for them online or any phone number etc. I don't know if its like this with Lib Dem candidates elsewhere

 

[jfollows]

Finally got Reform, Conservative & LibDem leaflets today.
I’ve had at least 3xLabour already, it’s clear where the effort lies.
I voted by post a week ago.
LibDem mainly gone to ground (per the next poster)
The Conservative (Esther McVey) is against so many things I’m in favour of - HS2, Europe, gay marriage
Reform is beyond the pale for me

 

[renegademaster]

The Lib Dem candidate in my area is extremely hard to reach, it as if he has given up and i can't see any campaigns from them at all, unlike the other parties, and no leaflets either. No contact details for them online or any phone number etc. I don't know if its like this with Lib Dem candidates elsewhere

I think Lib dems have tactically told some candidates not to bother if its close and labor have more a chance

 

[YorkRailFan]

Had my first Labour (and Cooperative) leaflet come through my door today, no mention of Starmer (or any other member of the shadow candidate to be fair) on any sheet in the leaflet. It only focused on Labour's plans for my constituency (I live in a Labour Safe seat). So that means so far I have received leaflets from Labour and Reform, surprised the Lib Dems and Greens haven't put anything through my door.

 

[Energy]

I think Lib dems have tactically told some candidates not to bother if its close and labor have more a chance

To be fair, the LibDems are fairly clear that their aim is to unseat Conservatives and splitting the vote between them and Labour may well let the Conservatives win that seat.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The opening sentence of their leaflet says “We desperately need a change from the old parties…” which , given their name, I found highly amusing.

Their headline policies are also quite amusing; as they are mostly things we already have, eg ‘National sovereignty‘.

As you say, highly amusing !