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UK face coverings discussion

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Baxenden Bank

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This may be a controversial statement - but if there weren't selfish idiots going about claiming they have an exemption when in reality they have no real reason why they should have one, then we could all just assume that anyone without a mask is exempt. However that is far from the case and we do have selfish idiots who are claiming they have an exemption for no other reason other than to be selfish (and yes, I know this because I went back home to see my parents for the first time in 7 months a week or so ago and saw people who I know wouldn't have an exemption trying to claim they do, and people wearing masks under their chin and only pulling them up when a member of staff approached, and then pulling it back down afterwards). That isn't to say we should challenge people because of that, but surely the "blame" should be at the idiots and not the people trying to enforce complicated and confusing rules?
But it doesn't matter. The type of face-coverings being worn by the general public, and the way that they are being worn, and the constant touching of faces, mean that they have zero benefit anyway.

It's time for someone to do a survey and work out how many are disposing of their mask every four hours (maximum), or every time they remove it, or washing their re-usable face-covering sufficiently frequently, whilst carrying a sufficient supply of disposable / re-usable coverings for their whole day. My guess is people will have a pack in their car or handbag (or equivalent) but use the same one all day. On and off, into dirty pocket, on and off into sweaty hand, and repeat.
 
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WelshBluebird

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It's quite amazing that you can see hidden disabilities, you should contact a medical research institute to see if you can train others in this skill.

For people not wearing a mask at all, I specifically said I was talking about people I know pretty damn well and have known all my life. They do not have hidden disabilities.
And if people I know are doing it - I am willing to bet people I don't know are doing it too.

Of course, at a glance you can't tell genuine people apart from the liars, which is why it is right not to challenge specific people unless you do know their specific circumstance (which unless you know the person well - is unlikely). But to suggest that people aren't being selfish is just naive.

But it doesn't matter. The type of face-coverings being worn by the general public, and the way that they are being worn, and the constant touching of faces, mean that they have zero benefit anyway.

Zero benefit?
Reduced yes - but unless you have evidence to say zero, then I don't think you can make that statement!
 

Baxenden Bank

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I am talking about people I know pretty damn well and have known all my life. They do not have hidden disabilities.
And if people I know are doing it - I am willing to bet people I don't know are doing it too.




Zero benefit?
Reduced yes - but unless you have evidence to say zero, then I don't think you can make that statement!
There is no evidence to show that they do have a benefit, that'll do me. The emerging evidence, often quoted but seems to be stuck in it's emerging phase, only shows benefit where medical grade masks are worn properly and in clinical settings. The 0815 from Surbiton is not a clinical setting, habituated entirely by trained clinical staff. I would love there to be evidence to prove a knotted hanky does the trick, but it simply does not exist.
 

35B

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But what sort of society is this creating, where this sort of casual bigotry is seemingly becoming acceptable to many?
I would dispute that it is casual bigotry - and suggest that the greatest loss in the current situation is of a sense of proportion.
 

35B

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There is no evidence to show that they do have a benefit, that'll do me. The emerging evidence, often quoted but seems to be stuck in it's emerging phase, only shows benefit where medical grade masks are worn properly and in clinical settings. The 0815 from Surbiton is not a clinical setting, habituated entirely by trained clinical staff. I would love there to be evidence to prove a knotted hanky does the trick, but it simply does not exist.
Strange, multiple pieces of research have been published showing that face coverings - not surgical grade masks - have a benefit in constraining the general spread of disease, specifically Covid, and not just in surgical settings.
 

185143

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I was on a train to Edinburgh a couple of days back and was very pleased to hear the guard announce something on the lines of the following:
  • "If you are able to do so, you must wear a face covering"
  • "Please be aware that there will be people onboard with specified exemptions who are unable to do so"
  • "Please be mindful that many disabilities are hidden, so please be considerate to anyone unable to wear a face covering"
Something like that should be the standard announcement in my opinion, rather than "You MUST wear a face covering. Err... unless exempt" or, worse, not mentioning exemptions at all.

I too as mentioned upthread have seen an increase in shops displaying signage boldly stating "No mask-No entry" "You MUST wear a mask" or similar in this shop, and even seen a couple mentioning exemptions and treating them differently-such as a takeaway telling customers unable to wear a mask to attract staff's attention and their order will be taken at the door. Or, worse, in one case that mask wearers will have priority for entry. Most of these are small independent places, so when I see such signage I simply take my business elsewhere.
 

DB

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I would dispute that it is casual bigotry - and suggest that the greatest loss in the current situation is of a sense of proportion.

The loss of proportion is on the other side to that which you are suggesting. There is very weak evidence that masks make any difference even if the person is infected, which they probably aren't. Humiliating someone by basically implying that they are infectious scum who don't deserve to be allowed in a shop is in no way a reasonable response.

It really is no different to refusing service to someone based any other bigoted "justification".
 

trebor79

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It's time for someone to do a survey and work out how many are disposing of their mask every four hours (maximum), or every time they remove it, or washing their re-usable face-covering sufficiently frequently, whilst carrying a sufficient supply of disposable / re-usable coverings for their whole day. My guess is people will have a pack in their car or handbag (or equivalent) but use the same one all day. On and off, into dirty pocket, on and off into sweaty hand, and repeat.
From my own observations, nobody uses them properly. Even my mask zealot wife and her mother.
When you're out and about they are going in and out of pockets.
My friend is a pilot for BA. "We have to wear masks whenever we are in the cabin or the cockpit door is open. They give us [single-use] disposable masks. Mine's lasted 3 weeks but today the elastic broke so I got a new one".
For people not wearing a mask at all, I specifically said I was talking about people I know pretty damn well and have known all my life. They do not have hidden disabilities.
And if people I know are doing it - I am willing to bet people I don't know are doing it too.
Might not be a hidden disability. They might have found that wearing one causes them "severe distress", or have some other "reasonable excuse" [the list in the legislation is not exhaustive].
Zero benefit?
Reduced yes - but unless you have evidence to say zero, then I don't think you can make that statement!
I'd say it's worse than zero. The European countries with the most stringent mask rules have accelerating infection rates. Sweden, with no mask rules has hardly any infection now.
Mirrored int he UK - Scotland with the most stringent mask rules has the highest estimated R number, Wales with the least stringent the lowest estimated R.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Strange, multiple pieces of research have been published showing that face coverings - not surgical grade masks - have a benefit in constraining the general spread of disease, specifically Covid, and not just in surgical settings.
That argument has been done to death, several times, round and round in circles on several threads. No-one has yet pointed me in the direction of 'research', rather than 'casual observations'. I am happy to be corrected, and to accept that others have a different opinion. No skin off my nose, I'm boycotting trains and shops until face-coverings are optional, then I will be happy to wear one.
 

Yew

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Strange, multiple pieces of research have been published showing that face coverings - not surgical grade masks - have a benefit in constraining the general spread of disease, specifically Covid, and not just in surgical settings.
And multiple papers have also shown that there is no statistically significant effect. Typically higher-quality randomised control trials show that there's no effect, and more abstract mechanistic studies show a potential benefit. Typically, these abstract studies bait-and-switch "covid infections" for "droplet mass transfer".
 

DB

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Strange, multiple pieces of research have been published showing that face coverings - not surgical grade masks - have a benefit in constraining the general spread of disease, specifically Covid, and not just in surgical settings.

Have you read any of these studies? I've read loads of them, and none of them match the claims made for them - they are pretty much all meta-analyses of studies in medical settings, and they then make the jump to conclude that they work among the general public, with no evidence for that leap and presumably hoping that nobody will notice that they are comparing apples with oranges.

I am not aware of a single case where mandating masks (which a number of countries have done at various times over the past six months) has shown any measurable reduction in transmission.
 

big_rig

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Have you read any of these studies? I've read loads of them, and none of them match the claims made for them - they are pretty much all meta-analyses of studies in medical settings, and they then make the jump to conclude that they work among the general public, with no evidence for that leap and presumably hoping that nobody will notice that they are comparing apples with oranges.

I am not aware of a single case where mandating masks (which a number of countries have done at various times over the past six months) has shown any measurable reduction in transmission.

The onset of 'meta analysis' has been one of the more nebulous aspects of 'the science' being used to justify all these arbitrary restrictions. In most cases it seems about as scientific as me writing a blog post, but there you go. A common theme seems to be something like the below:

1) Prof J. Bloggs writes a meta analysis of a bunch of studies of varying (usually very low) quality dating back fifty years or so (where in the fine print they discount the ones they don't like) and submits it as a 'pre-print' or even worse as 'analysis' (aka an opinion piece) with 'informal' peer review to a journal, and shares it on Twitter, perhaps with some recommendations that X needs to be banned or mandated;
2) J. Smith with tens of thousands of Twitter followers finds this and announces new science on X restriction and its effectiveness, maybe or maybe not referring it to as an opinion piece;
3) J. Doe of the BBC or other newspaper writes an article about how new watertight science proves beyond doubt that doing X is leading to countless deaths
4) M. Hancock or N. Sturgeon announces an immediate ban on X and related activity Y to save lives and protect the NHS, by which time Prof Blogg's colleague has released a another half a dozen meta analysis on different topics, cycle repeats (with occasionally somebody looking back at the first one and finding out it was bollocks and never went beyond pre-print analysis).
 

greyman42

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Two guards’ announcements I heard today:

One stating that people must wear coverings, but that some may be exempt, and exemptions may not be obvious (so far so good). Than a ludicrous invitation to text 61016 if anyone was spotted not wearing a mask, or wearing it incorrectly.

One stating that masks must be worn, and that people with exemptions would need to provide an “exemption certificate” to BTP, and offering to give out “spare masks” to passengers.

What an embarrassing, inconsistent, confused mess.
Which TOC was it that asked for the exemption certificate?
 

bramling

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This may be a controversial statement - but if there weren't selfish idiots going about claiming they have an exemption when in reality they have no real reason why they should have one, then we could all just assume that anyone without a mask is exempt. However that is far from the case and we do have selfish idiots who are claiming they have an exemption for no other reason other than to be selfish (and yes, I know this because I went back home to see my parents for the first time in 7 months a week or so ago and saw people who I know wouldn't have an exemption trying to claim they do, and people wearing masks under their chin and only pulling them up when a member of staff approached, and then pulling it back down afterwards). That isn't to say we should challenge people because of that, but surely the "blame" should be at the idiots and not the people trying to enforce complicated and confusing rules?

The problem with the above is the assumption that anyone choosing not to wear a mask is an idiot. The evidence is extremely shaky at best, against established medical opinion that masks outside a medical setting are a really bad idea (not my words, but those of the deputy CMO).

If you wish to wear a mask then fine, but don’t expect to impose your feelings on others who have come to a different conclusion based on the weak and conflicting information that we all have to go on.

It’s not like the countries which have seen extensive mask use are doing particularly well.

If you don’t like me being devoid of a mask then keep your distance!

Incidentally, one presumes you are using masks correctly, sanitising hands before and after touching them, disposing when touched, not touching or adjusting it once on, not letting it slip below the nose, et cetera? If so then you’re very much in the minority.
 

43066

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And here’s another example of a shop owner refusing to serve a potential customer who claims an exemption. This time, a bakery in the Hangleton area of Brighton:

Owner: ‘You’ve got an exemption certificate, have you?’

Customer: ‘I don’t need to carry an exemption certificate’

Owner: ‘Well, I’m not serving you!’

Link to story in local rag

Fingers crossed his business goes under. There’s a recession coming and business owners turning away business are about to get a big shock.

Of course, at a glance you can't tell genuine people apart from the liars, which is why it is right not to challenge specific people unless you do know their specific circumstance (which unless you know the person well - is unlikely). But to suggest that people aren't being selfish is just naive.

Selfish idiots? What’s selfish about not doing something that has no benefit anyway?! It’s very obvious that masks are making no difference given the big step up in infection rates, the comments of the government’s own deputy chief medical officer etc. Unless you know more than her?!

I suspect those not wearing masks are a mixture of the exempt, and people who no longer wish to mindlessly follow the instructions of Dominic Cummings and Boris Johnson.

Which TOC was it that asked for the exemption certificate?

Best if I don’t name the TOC. Suffice it to say it is not official policy, rather it’s something the guard had made up.
 

Skimpot flyer

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For people not wearing a mask at all, I specifically said I was talking about people I know pretty damn well and have known all my life. They do not have hidden disabilities.
And if people I know are doing it - I am willing to bet people I don't know are doing it too.

Of course, at a glance you can't tell genuine people apart from the liars, which is why it is right not to challenge specific people unless you do know their specific circumstance (which unless you know the person well - is unlikely). But to suggest that people aren't being selfish is just naive.



Zero benefit?
Reduced yes - but unless you have evidence to say zero, then I don't think you can make that statement!
If masks have any benefit, how do you explain the inconsistency of shop workers being exempt? Does a Sainsburys/ Asda / Tesco uniform give immunity from Covid19? Of course not !
 

DB

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If masks have any benefit, how do you explain the inconsistency of shop workers being exempt? Does a Sainsburys/ Asda / Tesco uniform give immunity from Covid19? Of course not !

Or indeed a TOC or police uniform!

How many confirmed cases have there been of these maskless shop and rail staff, etc, infecting others? I would hazard a guess that the answer is 'none'.
 

Huntergreed

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Traveled on various trains today:

Dumfries - Carlisle
Carlisle - Preston
Preston - Blackpool North
Blackpool North - Preston
Preston - Warrington BQ
Warrington BQ - Preston

and will be travelling home later this evening. Only one of the trains I’ve had an issue with (I was asked for an “exemption certificate” by the guard, to which I politely informed her one wasn’t required and she seemed to accept without question. All other services (so far) I’ve not even heard masks mentioned
 

Bikeman78

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Two guards’ announcements I heard today:

One stating that people must wear coverings, but that some may be exempt, and exemptions may not be obvious (so far so good). Than a ludicrous invitation to text 61016 if anyone was spotted not wearing a mask, or wearing it incorrectly.

One stating that masks must be worn, and that people with exemptions would need to provide an “exemption certificate” to BTP, and offering to give out “spare masks” to passengers.

What an embarrassing, inconsistent, confused mess.
Last week an Avanti guard insisted that they must be worn on stations too. Simply not true, except in Scotland.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

This may be a controversial statement - but if there weren't selfish idiots going about claiming they have an exemption when in reality they have no real reason why they should have one, then we could all just assume that anyone without a mask is exempt. However that is far from the case and we do have selfish idiots who are claiming they have an exemption for no other reason other than to be selfish (and yes, I know this because I went back home to see my parents for the first time in 7 months a week or so ago and saw people who I know wouldn't have an exemption trying to claim they do, and people wearing masks under their chin and only pulling them up when a member of staff approached, and then pulling it back down afterwards). That isn't to say we should challenge people because of that, but surely the "blame" should be at the idiots and not the people trying to enforce complicated and confusing rules?
If masks in shops are so important then why isn't Covid running riot in Cardiff?
 
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WelshBluebird

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If masks in shops are so important then why isn't Covid running riot in Cardiff?

I mean, it is in the valleys. "Running riot" maybe a little exagerated - but with Caerphilly under local lockdown, Merthyr and the Rhondda (where I was) looking like they will be next, the South Wales area I was in is having a larger rise in cases than the national average.
 

greyman42

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Fingers crossed his business goes under. There’s a recession coming and business owners turning away business are about to get a big shock.



Selfish idiots? What’s selfish about not doing something that has no benefit anyway?! It’s very obvious that masks are making no difference given the big step up in infection rates, the comments of the government’s own deputy chief medical officer etc. Unless you know more than her?!

I suspect those not wearing masks are a mixture of the exempt, and people who no longer wish to mindlessly follow the instructions of Dominic Cummings and Boris Johnson.



Best if I don’t name the TOC. Suffice it to say it is not official policy, rather it’s something the guard had made up.
Why is it best not to name the TOC. What's the big secret?
 

WelshBluebird

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If masks have any benefit, how do you explain the inconsistency of shop workers being exempt? Does a Sainsburys/ Asda / Tesco uniform give immunity from Covid19? Of course not

Wearing one for 30 mins or so whilst doing your shopping, or for an hour or two when on a train is pretty different to wearing one for 8+ hours on a shift at work.
 

jumble

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Can you imagine the cost to Easyjet if they had to divert! That would be the only way to make them think about it correctly.

Think of how many they made happy that day
Where do these people get the idea that there is such a thing as an 'exemption certificate'. It doesn't exist!

Crap journalism as well - they don't highlight this point, which they should.

I disagree
The OP could easily make up and print out his own "exemption certificate" and then the idiot at the bakery would presumably be happy and his customers would be all the safer for it.
This of course would have proved that the OP knew how to use publisher and nothing else.
 

packermac

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There is no evidence to show that they do have a benefit, that'll do me. The emerging evidence, often quoted but seems to be stuck in it's emerging phase, only shows benefit where medical grade masks are worn properly and in clinical settings. The 0815 from Surbiton is not a clinical setting, habituated entirely by trained clinical staff. I would love there to be evidence to prove a knotted hanky does the trick, but it simply does not exist.
Well the WHO document on masks says that cloth ones (not medical) should be worn on public transport. Maybe you like me think the WHO have not covered themselves in glory over this, BUT, they are the globally recognised world health authority, so it is unlikely many governments will go against their advice without some very strong back up.
 

DB

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Think of how many they made happy that day


I disagree
The OP could easily make up and print out his own "exemption certificate" and then the idiot at the bakery would presumably be happy and his customers would be all the safer for it.
This of course would have proved that the OP knew how to use publisher and nothing else.

The point is that people like this baker seem to thing there is something official - which there isn't
 

jumble

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You can bet the GPs would want to charge for this
They would get fed up of people coming to see them and saying wearing a mask distresses me so can I have a certificate please
 

Baxenden Bank

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Well the WHO document on masks says that cloth ones (not medical) should be worn on public transport. Maybe you like me think the WHO have not covered themselves in glory over this, BUT, they are the globally recognised world health authority, so it is unlikely many governments will go against their advice without some very strong back up.
Correction.
WERE globally recognised (or indeed respected), until they admitted political interference. Reputation is hard earned and easily lost.
 

jumble

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The point is that people like this baker seem to thing there is something official - which there isn't

I am sure he does that but I am being pragmatic since when he realises that you are correct he will probably conjure up some other stupidity as from his facebook he is not interested in learning about the Governments position.

This reply from the Argus article sums it up perfectly

But you may as well write 'I'm exempt' on a serviette with a biro and hand it over. It would be just as official. Surely how useful it is depends on whether the person asking for it is looking for an excuse to avoid a conflict and just let you come in without a mask, or whether they really do want 'proof' and are quite happy to chuck you out if you haven't got any. Belligerence is not confined to the customers!
 
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Skimpot flyer

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Wearing one for 30 mins or so whilst doing your shopping, or for an hour or two when on a train is pretty different to wearing one for 8+ hours on a shift at work.
But if the medical evidence is strong (ha!) about masks protecting others, who is the more likely superspreader?
The person wearing one for 30 mins or the person NOT wearing one, for 8+ hours on a shift at work, in proximity to hundreds of people?
Whether it gets uncomfortable is not relevant to the issue of whether face-coverings actually work in slowing transmission. If you truly believe they do, it makes the shop-worker exemption utterly ridiculous!
 
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