UK face coverings discussion

[DB]

They're just not even close to the big deal some people seem to be making out. Cite the heaving town centres of face-coveres folk.

As has been pointed out before, jsut because YOU don't find them a big deal doesn't mean that others don't - many dislike them strongly, and some find them exremely difficult.

Town centres will be to a large extent self-selecting - those who hate masks will be avoiding going to places where they are needed as much as they can.

 

[Ianno87]

As has been pointed out before, jsut because YOU don't find them a big deal doesn't mean that others don't - many dislike them strongly, and some find them exremely difficult.

For the latter, sounds like "reasonable excuse" comes into play.

But there is definitely a contingent of folk who are just being deliberately difficult, and forget that, compared to sacrifices made by others in the name of fighting Covid, a face covering is really pretty trivial thing to whinge about.

 

[DB]

But there is definitely a contingent of folk who are just being deliberately difficult, and forget that, compared to sacrifices made by others in the name of fighting Covid, a face covering is really pretty trivial thing to whinge about.

Ah yes, of course, anyone who dislikes them is just "being difficult". The point you are missing entirely is that there is no strong evidence that masks actually help, so they are being imposed on people (with all the attendant 'granny killer' shaming for people who don't wear them) despite there being no clear evidence that it reduces transmission at all - and indeed there is nothing to suggest that they do, from looking at countries which have mandated them: if masks were effective, there would be expected to be a drop in infections from the time they were mandated, and that's not happened anywhere. So what are they achieving, exactly?

 

[scotrail158713]

Just researched it a bit, turns out she’s mandated it for customers to hospitality when they are not eating or drinking. Surely this doesn’t mean that they are going to expect you to put it on between courses/when reading the menu? This would be ridiculous.

Really this is as far as masks can go before they are mandated outside, in which case I would not be quiet about opposing it

It’s not quite that bad. See my bold below. It seems to only be when moving around the premises.

It will also become mandatory for staff working in hospitality premises such as pubs and restaurants to wear face coverings, and for customers to wear them while moving around.

Source -

Coronavirus: Maximum size of gatherings in Scotland cut to six

Plans to reopen theatres and live music venues are pushed back to October after a rise in coronavirus cases.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[DB]

It’s not quite that bad. See my bold below. It seems to only be when moving around the premises.

Source -

Coronavirus: Maximum size of gatherings in Scotland cut to six

Plans to reopen theatres and live music venues are pushed back to October after a rise in coronavirus cases.

www.bbc.co.uk

And no doubt they will follow strict hygiene procedures when taking them on or off? Yeah right...

Whatever happened to that advice back in March/April where they were trying to drum the 'do not touch your face' message into everyone?

 

[Bantamzen]

And no doubt they will follow strict hygiene procedures when taking them on or off? Yeah right...

Whatever happened to that advice back in March/April where they were trying to drum the 'do not touch your face' message into everyone?

It doesn't fit the "got to be seen doing something" agenda, and the brand new "got to be seen trying something different from the next guy" one...

 

[LowLevel]

I think this is rather an understatement. Literally nobody is going to find wearing one more comfortable than not. They just feel they are on balance a minor thing.

You say that, mine fit well and are fairly comfortable but I've never really been enamoured with them as you'd expect (now we are selling tickets again I'm having to wear them for over an hour at a time without a break too)... Until this morning which was rather autumnal being in single figures temperature wise when I got out of bed at a horrible time of day. My mask was rather like wearing a less itchy and better fitting scarf

I might come to quite like them on winter mornings!

 

[bramling]

For the latter, sounds like "reasonable excuse" comes into play.

But there is definitely a contingent of folk who are just being deliberately difficult, and forget that, compared to sacrifices made by others in the name of fighting Covid, a face covering is really pretty trivial thing to whinge about.

It isn’t pretty trivial. At my work it’s causing conflicts, which staff then have to get involved and resolve, which has in some cases resulted in them having to wade into conflict situations. In every case to date it’s been started by someone who has taken exception to someone else not wearing a mask.

Likewise when at work I am legally exempt, yet I’m having to put up with dagger looks at times. I totally resent that, and for many that’s non-trivial, it’s created a hostile working environment, at a time when people are already stressed and fed up.

It’s all stirred up by the neurotic brigade, the same ones who give dagger looks if someone has the temerity to sneeze or blow their nose.

And all this for what? Countries which have heavily embraced masks like France and Spain aren’t doing well, whilst Sweden seems to be. Likewise London which anecdotally seems to have lower levels of compliance compared to other parts of Britain seems to be faring relatively better. Most people aren’t using masks correctly, and we now have an increasing problem with discarded masks littering public spaces.

If you’re happy to put a soggy germy receptacle on your face at the request of Boris Johnson then please do, I fully respect your choice. The same courtesy should be reciprocated for those who don’t wish to embrace what is clearly to many people “not a good idea”.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You say that, mine fit well and are fairly comfortable but I've never really been enamoured with them as you'd expect (now we are selling tickets again I'm having to wear them for over an hour at a time without a break too)... Until this morning which was rather autumnal being in single figures temperature wise when I got out of bed at a horrible time of day. My mask was rather like wearing a less itchy and better fitting scarf

I might come to quite like them on winter mornings!

To be fair some cyclists do wear them (typically valved ones as they're not intended for protecting others from COVID) to protect from exhaust fumes and the cold. There are also people who run with a Buff or similar over their nose and mouth in winter, though I've tried it and I couldn't, though admittedly through a combination of asthma, recovering pulmonary embolism and mild unfitness my breathing is "on edge" when I'm running anyway, so any obstruction would be a problem under exertion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2020 ==

And all this for what? Countries which have heavily embraced masks like France and Spain aren’t doing well, whilst Sweden seems to be

One thing of very great note indeed is that Sweden has today made it into the travel corridor, which is as good a statement of "they're doing as well as us" as you could imagine. Anyone here up for a trip? Masks can be left at the airport

I'm actually slightly tempted by an educational trip to see what it's like (and because I've not been there before). Question is will it end up back off next week...

 

[Huntergreed]

I’m genuinely interested to see what happens in Scotland. If cases continue to rise across the board, then I will be categorically convinced that masks increase transmission due to trapping the particles as well as due to increased touching of faces. I’m relatively sure it’s probable now (look at Sweden vs Spain/France) and wales (with the least strict mask rules) having the lowest prevalence and Scotland (with the most strict mask rules) having the highest prevalence. All this “don’t touch your face” from the start has been undone with masks, and it seems obvious to me that if particles are hanging around and you touch your face, transmission risk increases. I suppose time will tell.

 

[bramling]

To be fair some cyclists do wear them (typically valved ones as they're not intended for protecting others from COVID) to protect from exhaust fumes and the cold. There are also people who run with a Buff or similar over their nose and mouth in winter, though I've tried it and I couldn't, though admittedly through a combination of asthma, recovering pulmonary embolism and mild unfitness my breathing is "on edge" when I'm running anyway, so any obstruction would be a problem under exertion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2020 ==



One thing of very great note indeed is that Sweden has today made it into the travel corridor, which is as good a statement of "they're doing as well as us" as you could imagine. Anyone here up for a trip? Masks can be left at the airport

I'm actually slightly tempted by an educational trip to see what it's like (and because I've not been there before). Question is will it end up back off next week...

Sweden have always liked their queuing. Been many years since I was there, but at the time it was pretty widespread to have to take a ticket and then wait until your number is called up. To be honest I found it a little tedious, but it would probably work fairly well with social distancing.

 

[trebor79]

It’s not quite that bad. See my bold below. It seems to only be when moving around the premises.

Source -

Coronavirus: Maximum size of gatherings in Scotland cut to six

Plans to reopen theatres and live music venues are pushed back to October after a rise in coronavirus cases.

www.bbc.co.uk

That's absurd. Assuming masks actually worked for a moment, is there really any great improvement in being masked for 5% of the time you spend in the place?
As others have said, all this will do is lead to more infection thorough people touching their filthy masks.

When is the penny going to drop with the buffoons making these decisions that masks are counter productive in the real world?

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The French/Spanish/English/Scottish approach to evidence.

- 'Every time we make more people wear masks, the number of infections goes up.'
- 'Ah, the solution to that is clearly to make even more people wear masks.'

Repeat ad infinitum.

We're living through an age of irrationality.

We certainly are.
Transport for London has just announced that as from Monday 14 September, Seven Sisters station will be closed as the siblings would otherwise be in breach of the new social gatherings regulatons.
Additionally, Network Rail have confirmed the London borough of Ilford have deployed Covid Marshalls to monitor the movements of a large group of crown-wearers and ‘the situation is constantly under review’...

 

[Ian Cunningham]

That's absurd. Assuming masks actually worked for a moment, is there really any great improvement in being masked for 5% of the time you spend in the place?
As others have said, all this will do is lead to more infection thorough people touching their filthy masks.

When is the penny going to drop with the buffoons making these decisions that masks are counter productive in the real world?

I think the reasoning is when seated you should be suitably distanced from other customers (assuming the premises has laid out tables correctly) and the number of people you are closest to is low. When moving around you are much more likely to pass by a lot more people and probbably a much closer pass
I don't know about you but I've found it very easy to fit and remove a face covering bu only touching the elastic and not the fabric itself - in any case it takes seconds to sanitise your hands

 

[initiation]

That's absurd. Assuming masks actually worked for a moment, is there really any great improvement in being masked for 5% of the time you spend in the place?
As others have said, all this will do is lead to more infection thorough people touching their filthy masks.

When is the penny going to drop with the buffoons making these decisions that masks are counter productive in the real world?

Don't worry, I am sure there is categorical evidence from the months of track and trace data available that a major source of transmission is people walking vaguely near each other in a restaurant......


Based on previous form it wouldn't be surprised if this gets introduced in England next week.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2020 ==

 

[Huntergreed]

Masks mandatory in shops across Wales from Monday. Taking a step backward

 

[headshot119]

From the BBC - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-54108648

People in Wales must wear face masks in shops and other indoor public spaces from Monday, the first minister has announced.

Mark Drakeford said the change came as 20 people in every 100,000 in Wales now had coronavirus.

Indoor meetings of more than six from an extended household will be illegal from Monday.

The rule will not apply to children under 11 and up to 30 people from different homes can still meet outside.

Mr Drakeford said the rate of 20 people in 100,000 was the "threshold we use for people to have to quarantine coming back into the UK".

He said if the figure fell, the advice on face masks could be looked at again.

- Compulsory face masks to be worn in shops and indoor public spaces from Monday
- Indoor meetings of more than six people from an extended household will be illegal from Monday
- Rule will not apply to children aged 11 and under
- Up to 30 people can still meet up outside, including in people's gardens

I will miss the refreshing ability to walk into a Welsh supermarket when I visit my folks without needing to worry about a mask.

Anecdotal evidence, but my last few trips to the Welsh side of the border, social distancing was very much still in evidence in supermarkets, unlike England where that seemed to go out of the window when masks got introduced.

 

[scotrail158713]

Masks mandatory in shops across Wales from Monday. Taking a step backward

Disappointing. Makes my post earlier this morning almost meaningless now. Wales is now no different to the rest of the UK.
This one from this thread

Once again Wales are taking the sensible option. Their initial easing of lockdown was maybe too cautious compared to the rest of the UK, but they’re now proving again that they’re the only ones left with any real sense.

 

[MikeWM]

We certainly are.
Transport for London has just announced that as from Monday 14 September, Seven Sisters station will be closed as the siblings would otherwise be in breach of the new social gatherings regulatons.
Additionally, Network Rail have confirmed the London borough of Ilford have deployed Covid Marshalls to monitor the movements of a large group of crown-wearers and ‘the situation is constantly under review’...

Must admit it took me a moment to get the second one

 

[trebor79]

Must admit it took me a moment to get the second one

It's way over my head

 

[MikeWM]

It's way over my head

Seven Kings

 

[Huntergreed]

I see a woman in Manchester was fined twice in one day for not wearing a mask in a supermarket:

A shopper has been fined twice in one day for refusing to wear a face mask in a supermarket.

The woman received two £100 fixed penalty notices for breaching the rules in Rochdale.

Police in the town are operating “dedicated Covid-19 patrols” on a daily basis, the Manchester Evening News reports.

Officers have been handing out face coverings in partnership with the council and offering support and advice.

But if shoppers refuse to wear them and fail to give a reason, they can enforce the breach of the Government’s rules.

They were stationed at an unnamed supermarket at around 1pm on Tuesday when a customer entered without a face covering.

She was given one to use, but refused to put it on and did not offer a valid exemption reason so was handed a £100 fine.

Just "a short time later" the same woman was again seen by officers in the same store without a covering.

She again refused to wear one so was slapped with another £100 fine.

(https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...nW_9GimN_XZ6cDtzeBzCsUNPYxmgYsfXxcDJ9fzhXg2_w)

Is this in line with the law? I thought all that was required was “I have an exemption”, I didn’t think police were supposed to or allowed to ask for the reason or what that exemption actually is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it was the same instance of non-wearing, I'm not sure the second one would stand. Unless she left the store and re-entered, or put one on then removed it, only one offence of non-wearing has been committed.

 

[MikeWM]

I see a woman in Manchester was fined twice in one day for not wearing a mask in a supermarket:

(https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...nW_9GimN_XZ6cDtzeBzCsUNPYxmgYsfXxcDJ9fzhXg2_w)

Is this in line with the law? I thought all that was required was “I have an exemption”, I didn’t think police were supposed to or allowed to ask for the reason or what that exemption actually is.

The law is unclear. In my opinion a police officer (and only a police officer) is entitled to ask the grounds for the claimed exemption, but assuming you give a sensible answer that fits one of the grounds for exemption, it should be left there.

Hard to tell without knowing the conversation whether this woman gave a sensible answer, or indeed any answer.

The odd thing in that article is that she received *two* £100 fines. But the second fine is supposed to be doubled...

 

[adc82140]

What we don't know is whether she attempted to say she was exempt, or just said she was refusing to wear one.

 

[Huntergreed]

I genuinely do not believe masks help to reduce the spread of the virus, but what really annoys me is that there’s no political opposition to them, even though there is a lack of evidence in their favour. The leader of the opposition who should be questioning their mandation (or at least the process and scientific evidence behind their mandation) is instead showing his support of their use (despite a lack of evidence) by taking a photo of himself wearing one next to some 09 stock to encourage more people to wear one:


(https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/1304373118971121665?s=21)

Why is there no proper political opposition to face coverings? The evidence is extremely weak at best, statistics show that they may be having a negative effect, yet all parties are currently strongly in support of them. The mind boggles.

 

[headshot119]

I genuinely do not believe masks help to reduce the spread of the virus, but what really annoys me is that there’s no political opposition to them, even though there is a lack of evidence in their favour. The leader of the opposition who should be questioning their mandation (or at least the process and scientific evidence behind their mandation) is instead showing his support of their use (despite a lack of evidence) by taking a photo of himself wearing one next to some 09 stock to encourage more people to wear one:

View attachment 83414
(https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/1304373118971121665?s=21)

Why is there no proper political opposition to face coverings? The evidence is extremely weak at best, statistics show that they may be having a negative effect, yet all parties are currently strongly in support of them. The mind boggles.

As we've seen today in Wales, introducing masks makes it look like the Government is doing something. With the local lockdown in Caerphilly, and potentially other parts of the Rhonda to come, the Welsh parliament wants to look proactive, rather than reactive. Fortunately a lot of people (Again anecdotally) are seeing through this latest introduction, and are asking if it's so important why wasn't it done weeks ago.

 

[HSTEd]

Why is there no proper political opposition to face coverings? The evidence is extremely weak at best, statistics show that they may be having a negative effect, yet all parties are currently strongly in support of them. The mind boggles.

Well the even more cynical than usual side of me might note that as a candidate of the Blairite wing of the party, Keir is concerned that mitigation or other methods would rip the heart out of the support for his wing of the party.
Since that is clearly unacceptable, he will support anything to achieve suppression at any cost.

 

[Smidster]

More masks in Scotland as well.

People in Bars & Restaurants will be required to where them when not eating or drinking - as will staff.

 

[3rd rail land]

More masks in Scotland as well.

People in Bars & Restaurants will be required to where them when not eating or drinking - as will staff.

How will that work? Wear it between courses or between finishing 1 drink and the next one being brought over to your table? The constant donning and removing of the face covering defeats the whole purpose of the mask which requires the wearer not constantly touch it.