UK face coverings discussion

[jamesst]

We only see what is in the video but you see poor belligerent attitude which is hardly likely to win any favours. I also have it on good authority that he has 'form' on Merseyrail already.

I do think many on this forum are using their 'anti-mask' stance to take a different view than they would normally do.

In any case the bloke has now been charged and we will see what the result is when he has his day in court in January.

Lets just say your good authority is spot on, theres no tears being shed over him!!

 

[KevinTurvey]

Re Merseyrail incident, I saw this yesterday here is the full video; the scuffle continues for a further 4 minutes when other passengers get involved.

 

[MikeWM]

I’ve taken 4 GA services today - all have had manual announcements about masks. One was polite and mentioned exceptions; two were polite but didn’t mention exemptions, one was quite officious (‘must we worn *correctly*, it is *mandatory*, etc.) and didn’t mention exemptions (and repeated the same message a number of times during the journey).

Consistent messaging would be good, but we’re clearly not getting that. I think it reasonable that every such announcement should mention that there are some people who legitimately won’t be wearing one, and it is disappointing that this still isn’t happening.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I’ve taken 4 GA services today - all have had manual announcements about masks. One was polite and mentioned exceptions; two were polite but didn’t mention exemptions, one was quite officious (‘must we worn *correctly*, it is *mandatory*, etc.) and didn’t mention exemptions (and repeated the same message a number of times during the journey).

Consistent messaging would be good, but we’re clearly not getting that. I think it reasonable that every such announcement should mention that there are some people who legitimately won’t be wearing one, and it is disappointing that this still isn’t happening.

London Overground and quite officious and don’t mention exemptions etc

 

[trebor79]

There is a very interesting graph at the bottom of this article on the BBC News website. I know it's R number and it's unreliable, but it's interesting that the R in Scotland is higher than England which is higher than Wales.
So it appears that R is lower for Wales, with the least stringent mask requirements, and highest for Scotland with the most stringent.
Now, what was is Jenny Harries was saying about the risks of masks in everyday settings?

Covid inquiry: The UK pandemic in numbers

Explore the data on how the coronavirus pandemic unfolded in the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Huntergreed]

I’ve taken 4 GA services today - all have had manual announcements about masks. One was polite and mentioned exceptions; two were polite but didn’t mention exemptions, one was quite officious (‘must we worn *correctly*, it is *mandatory*, etc.) and didn’t mention exemptions (and repeated the same message a number of times during the journey).

Consistent messaging would be good, but we’re clearly not getting that. I think it reasonable that every such announcement should mention that there are some people who legitimately won’t be wearing one, and it is disappointing that this still isn’t happening.

I’ve been on a lot of trains this week, and I would say 95% of the time there’s either no mention of masks or a polite reminder that they are needed, unless exempt.

Unfortunately, some rail staff are using this as an excuse to enforce their own political/epidemiological beliefs on passengers regarding masks and these are the ones that are a concern. Indeed the trip from Edinburgh - London I had last Tuesday had some of the strongest pro-mask announcing and enforcement I’ve witnessed so far, but this was really the only trip where I’ve ever seen masks being treated in this way.

As is often the case, it’s the small but very vocal minority that are causing the problems.

 

[talldave]

There is a very interesting graph at the bottom of this article on the BBC News website. I know it's R number and it's unreliable, but it's interesting that the R in Scotland is higher than England which is higher than Wales.
So it appears that R is lower for Wales, with the least stringent mask requirements, and highest for Scotland with the most stringent.
Now, what was is Jenny Harries was saying about the risks of masks in everyday settings?

Covid inquiry: The UK pandemic in numbers

Explore the data on how the coronavirus pandemic unfolded in the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk

View attachment 83133

Sadly, I don't think even raw facts will be accepted by the pro-maskers because they were hyped up to such a fear level by Project Fear that there doesn't seem to be a way back.

Lockdown had a clearly measurable parameter - not overloading the NHS. Masks had no measurable reason for deployment which obviously meant no exit strategy either. Ask a pro master to explain the life cycle for the mask wearing requirement and they can't.

 

[Huntergreed]

Sadly, I don't think even raw facts will be accepted by the pro-maskers because they were hyped up to such a fear level by Project Fear that there doesn't seem to be a way back.

Lockdown had a clearly measurable parameter - not overloading the NHS. Masks had no measurable reason for deployment which obviously meant no exit strategy either. Ask a pro master to explain the life cycle for the mask wearing requirement and they can't.

Indeed this is very true. In Scotland, both Nicola Sturgeon, Jason Leitch and the majority of the Scottish cabinet are extremely pro-mask. Here are two quotes I have taken from sessions in Scottish Parliament regarding face masks on 20th August:

Patrick Harvie (Green): The EIS is also asking that guidance on physical distancing and face coverings be strengthened. The evidence is clear that face coverings can reduce the spread of the virus, which is why they are needed in other indoor spaces.

I would like to see some of this “clear” evidence that Mr. Harvie is referring to, has he got access to some conclusive evidence that the rest of us are not allowed to access, or is this at best, exaggeration and at worst, false?

Michael Mathewson (SNP Transport Secretary: We have implemented measures such as mandatory face coverings on public transport, and we can see from the support that we have from the public that their use on public transport is widely supported.

What support from the public is he referring to? If he’s referring to compliance as “support”, then the main reason compliance has been so high likely isn’t due to support of the law, but rather fear of being fined or arrested.

If he wanted to gauge “support” for masks, he should have went out on the rail network before they mandated them and seen how many people were choosing to wear them (hardly any), this is the amount of people that support them.

 

[yorkie]

There is a very interesting graph at the bottom of this article on the BBC News website. I know it's R number and it's unreliable, but it's interesting that the R in Scotland is higher than England which is higher than Wales.
So it appears that R is lower for Wales, with the least stringent mask requirements, and highest for Scotland with the most stringent...

The effect of more stringent measures appears to be to prolong the epidemic and to delay the inevitable spread; they don't prevent it.

And if the wearing of face coverings does reduce the spread, how do the pro-mask lobbyists explain the increase in cases in places like Spain compared to Sweden? They have no answer to that.

If he wanted to gauge “support” for masks, he should have went out on the rail network before they mandated them and seen how many people were choosing to wear them (hardly any), this is the amount of people that support them.

Hardly anyone really supports it, but there is a very vocal minority who want others to wear masks, and once mandated, most people will comply with the law.

Some people will twist that to claim people support the wearing of masks, but it's nonsense.

 

[bramling]

The effect of more stringent measures appears to be to prolong the epidemic and to delay the inevitable spread; they don't prevent it.

And if the wearing of face coverings does reduce the spread, how do the pro-mask lobbyists explain the increase in cases in places like Spain compared to Sweden? They have no answer to that.



Hardly anyone really supports it, but there is a very vocal minority who want others to wear masks, and once mandated, most people will comply with the law.

Some people will twist that to claim people support the wearing of masks, but it's nonsense.

Masks are very much like toilet rolls - no real reason to do it, but something for people to latch on to as a way of feeling (falsely) empowered. It’s worse than that, because it allows some people to get a feeling of “it’s other people that are the problem and if only they do this then the problem will go away”.

Likewise there’s others who don’t really care much for masks but don’t have the guts not to wear them, and then take the view “it’s not fair I’m wearing one so why isn’t everyone?”.

As has been quite reasonably pointed out it’s interesting how countries with less mask use aren’t doing any worse, on the contrary in fact.

 

[Huntergreed]

Masks are very much like toilet rolls - no real reason to do it, but something for people to latch on to as a way of feeling (falsely) empowered. It’s worse than that, because it allows some people to get a feeling of “it’s other people that are the problem and if only they do this then the problem will go away”.

Likewise there’s others who don’t really care much for masks but don’t have the guts not to wear them, and then take the view “it’s not fair I’m wearing one so why isn’t everyone?”.

As has been quite reasonably pointed out it’s interesting how countries with less mask use aren’t doing any worse, on the contrary in fact.

Indeed this is correct, but when these people are being listened to and government legislation (not just guidance) is based around and enforced around that, that is where it becomes utterly unacceptable.

 

[bramling]

Indeed this is correct, but when these people are being listened to and government legislation (not just guidance) is based around and enforced around that, that is where it becomes utterly unacceptable.

There seems to be a new narrative emerging now among the terrified groups - that some kind of lockdown is needed to “allow us to survive the winter”.

I’m afraid those who are terrified, or even have genuine underlying vulnerable issues, simply cannot expect the rest of the population to barricade themselves up. It’s becoming increasingly selfish to expect others to sacrifice their own health and well-being (which lockdown measures do) simply to allow one group to have a false sense of security.

I hope this doesn’t translate into “masks outdoors through the winter”. Were that to happen then there will be some serious civil disobedience.

 

[Scrotnig]

I’m afraid those who are terrified, or even have genuine underlying vulnerable issues, simply cannot expect the rest of the population to barricade themselves up. It’s becoming increasingly selfish to expect others to sacrifice their own health and well-being (which lockdown measures do) simply to allow one group to have a false sense of security.

The problem is, they DO expect it, because absolutely everything they have shouted and screamed about so far has been put into law by the government.

Someone really, urgently needs to explain to the government that Facebook and Twitter are NOT actually barometers of overwhelming public opinion! Why do they not understand this?

 

[hwl]

And if the wearing of face coverings does reduce the spread, how do the pro-mask lobbyists explain the increase in cases in places like Spain compared to Sweden? They have no answer to that.

The mayor benefit of masks for an individual is others wearing masks.

There is much more of natural social distancing (aka personal space - they believe that people should be at more than arms length) culture in Scandinavia pre epidemic so they have kept doing what the do any way.

The German government reckon masks are key part of being able relax many other restrictions, the various Lander (States) have opened up in slightly different ways as part of a giant experiment to actually test what does and doesn't work.

Case rates also depend on population density and housing type (flats with communal entrances being more problematic from surface touch risk), hence densely populated are much more problematic. Have a look at Swedish population density and the single person household rate (around the highest in the world).

Extreme care needs to be taken when comparing countries as most lead to apple vs orange comparisons. Why does no one ever want to compare Sweden ever compare it with Norway?!

 

[bramling]

The problem is, they DO expect it, because absolutely everything they have shouted and screamed about so far has been put into law by the government.

Someone really, urgently needs to explain to the government that Facebook and Twitter are NOT actually barometers of overwhelming public opinion! Why do they not understand this?

Because we have a useless government, led by a media hack who’s appointed a cabinet full of lightweights?

The government should be leading the population, which apart from the period of scaring people (and I wouldn’t really call that leadership, more manipulation) they have completely failed to do.

Toilet rolls were a psychological reaction - it made people feel like they had regained some control of the situation. Masks are the same.

 

[yorkie]

The mayor benefit of masks for an individual is others wearing masks.

Yes which is why this has become so divisive and resulted in people with medical conditions and disabilities having nasty experiences.

The German government reckon masks are key part of being able relax many other restrictions, the various Lander (States) have opened up in slightly different ways as part of a giant experiment to actually test what does and doesn't work.

If they'd wanted people to get on board with face coverings in the UK, it should have been made clear this was to replace the need for restrictions. Take social distancing on public transport: we have the likes of XC demanding that we wear masks and also keep 2m from others, meaning only around 1/6th of seats can be reserved. This is absurd. Why should we be doing both these measures?!

We've created a situation in the UK where there are few perceived benefits to wearing masks, we can see by increases in places like Spain that they are not a panacea, they are not being used to allow us to lift all restrictions, and people are being treated in an appalling manner for very little - if any - tangible benefit.

The pro-mask lobby is very spiteful, overplays the potential benefits, and many of those with exemptions have been abused or mistreated by them.

If the introduction of face coverings was to have been successful, it should have been rolled out in a completely different way.

Case rates also depend on population density and housing type (flats with communal entrances being more problematic from surface touch risk), hence densely populated are much more problematic. Have a look at Swedish population density and the single person household rate (around the highest in the world).

My understanding is that the population density of Stockholm is more similar to cities in the UK than cities in Norway etc.

Extreme care needs to be taken when comparing countries as most lead to apple vs orange comparisons. Why does no one ever want to compare Sweden ever compare it with Norway?!

If you compare many areas of rural Sweden with rural Norway I don't think there is that much difference? The population of Stockholm isn't very similar to that of Oslo.

See this video interview with Anders Tegnell for more on these comparisons.

Summary:

In terms of migrants, travel and urban areas Sweden is more similar to the Netherlands and the UK than Norway or Finland

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The mayor benefit of masks for an individual is others wearing masks.

Case rates also depend on population density and housing type (flats with communal entrances being more problematic from surface touch risk), hence densely populated are much more problematic.

Surface touch risk is tackled by frequent hand-washing or use of sanitisers. Masks are irrelevant in that respect

 

[Huntergreed]

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned on here yet, but in the state of Victoria in Australia, protesters have been arrested by police for protesting outdoors and not wearing a mask outdoors. Some awful scenes of police forcefully masking up people (who may have a genuine exemption). If anyone can look at these images and still call this a democratic, free society, you need to have a long think about what that actually means:


(https://twitter.com/Zhope10/status/1302041831102849024)


(

)


(https://twitter.com/oliviakingia/status/1302209911451979778)

These images make me deeply uncomfortable. Also reported that police were caught choking a woman and later arrested her because she refused to wear a mask outside and didn't provide her name and address:

Victoria Police is conducting an internal investigation after footage showing an officer holding a woman who wasn't wearing a mask by the throat was posted online.


A video posted on Twitter shows a male police officer holding a woman around the neck while she yells "get off me ... you're choking me!"

One of the police officer's thumbs can be seen pressing into the woman's cheek as he holds her.

Another female police officer approaches, and the woman is seen kicking her in the chest.

The male officer then manoeuvrers the woman to the ground and holds her down.

A different video of the incident uploaded to YouTube shows the woman on her back yelling "get off me!" while the male police officer sits on her torso.

The woman was heard yelling "you're choking me!" in the video posted to Twitter.(Twitter)
A man standing and filming the incident nearby is heard yelling "get off her!" and calling the police officers "hypocrites" for not social distancing.

The female police officer is also seen standing and watching.

Towards the end of the footage the woman on the ground is heard saying: "Why am I under arrest … assault? I did not assault you — you grabbed me!"

Terrifying stuff, it's scary just how authoritarian many democratic countries have become over a virus with a <1% death rate that mainly only affects the extremely clinically vulnerable.

 

[yorkie]

That is indeed very worrying; scenes like this make me more determined to oppose compulsory mask wearing.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if I am forced to wear a mask at my workplace in the education sector (or told to make anyone else wear one), I will resign from that job.

I'm opposed to authoritarianism and this is one of the most extreme examples I've seen in a supposedly civilised society.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

In this video, Paul Weston describes a phenomenon where people experience self-loathing, wearing a mask just to be seen to conform, even though you know logically that the evidence for their use is weak at best, and at worst, more dangerous. Skip to about 3m28s

He suggests that before they were mandatory in shops, only about 10% of shoppers were wearing them (my experiences concur with that view). Since mandation, a tiny percentage of those that now feel forced to wear them, get resentful, vocal and sometimes physical with anyone they see that’s not obeying. They care not if the person has a genuine exemption.
Weston says ‘why do you need a Gestapo, when you’ve got your own citizens to enforce compliance?’

 

[bramling]

In this video, Paul Weston describes a phenomenon where people experience self-loathing, wearing a mask just to be seen to conform, even though you know logically that the evidence for their use is weak at best, and at worst, more dangerous. Skip to about 3m28s

Certainly some truth in that. Though I’m not sure power over the population is actually the government‘s main motivator - a far more likely scenario is that they know they have completely trashed the country from top to bottom as a result of various decisions, and need to ensure the fear narrative is kept going in order to allow them to devise some kind of escape route which keeps reputations intact, almost a case of hoping it will somehow all be alright in the end.

On a more individual level there’s certainly some people who seem to relish an element of sanctimonious authority they feel masks award them.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

That is indeed very worrying; scenes like this make me more determined to oppose compulsory mask wearing.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if I am forced to wear a mask at my workplace in the education sector (or told to make anyone else wear one), I will resign from that job.

I'm opposed to authoritarianism and this is one of the most extreme examples I've seen in a supposedly civilised society.

Note that studio presenter introduces the female reporter on the scene as our crime reporter...

 

[hwl]

If they'd wanted people to get on board with face coverings in the UK, it should have been made clear this was to replace the need for restrictions. Take social distancing on public transport: we have the likes of XC demanding that we wear masks and also keep 2m from others, meaning only around 1/6th of seats can be reserved. This is absurd. Why should we be doing both these measures?!

Protection measures can be additive, not just a choice of a single measure.
Unfortunately the government doesn't deal with complicated stuff well.
The reality is that the mask wearing should have resulted in cutting the distance down to 1m distance not eliminating distancing. It wasn't to replace the need for restrictions just some of what they were / are.

they are not being used to allow us to lift all restrictions, and people are being treated in an appalling manner for very little - if any - tangible benefit.

Masks were /are there to all the lifting of some not all restrictions.

My understanding is that the population density of Stockholm is more similar to cities in the UK than cities in Norway etc.

But the distribution of the number of people per household is very different and far lower in Sweden (single person households are much more common, house/flat sharing* is very rare). Given transmission within a household is very probably once one person has it this has huge effect on overall transmission rates. *In London most 20 somethings flat/house share but it is very rare in Sweden
The current UK case rate is some where between 1/30th to 1/40th of the peak case rate in March and we are much better at shielding the vulnerable and treating the serious cases but schools and universities are returning, (low rise) office use is gradually increasing and winter is coming so expect to see the case numbers rise. Measures such as masks and distancing damp (in the mathematical sense) the rate of increase of infections. This gives the government (national and local) a better chance to react to increases in case rates and makes testing and track 'n' trace more useful. Until the new lab near Coventry opens, the UK /England is fairly close to its testing limit as this weeks news stories about rationing testing have highlighted.

 

[jtuk]

Until the new lab near Coventry opens, the UK /England is fairly close to its testing limit as this weeks news stories about rationing testing have highlighted.

Except, if you look at the government's own statistics about tests done and testing capacity, you realise this is complete rubbish:

Coronavirus (COVID-19) in the UK

GOV.UK Coronavirus dashboard

coronavirus.data.gov.uk

Tests done throughout the past month fluctuate between 150k and 200k very consistently for the past month. Testing capacity has been above 300k since the end of June.

Of course, that we have had 100k spare tests daily for months now doesn't mean anything given the tests themselves are worthless

 

[birchesgreen]

Anecdotally of course, but seems to be more and more people wearing their masks below their noses.

 

[jumble]

There are no winners here. BTP handled it extremely badly, no matter what previous form he had.

As for the outcome, if he doesn't get a good solicitor he is obviously going to lose, but that doesn't mean BTP acted correctly. It won't tell us much.

True
Of course there are likely to be 3 versions of what happened
The Maskless possibly spitting/coughing Man's version of events
The BTP officer's version of events
The truth

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2020 ==

London Overground and quite officious and don’t mention exemptions etc

Rayners lane Station still has a large TFL poster that Mandates masks and does not mention exemptions
Meanwhile the charity shops where I moaned at two sites last week have done.... Nothing
Tomorrow formal complaint

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2020 ==

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned on here yet, but in the state of Victoria in Australia, protesters have been arrested by police for protesting outdoors and not wearing a mask outdoors. Some awful scenes of police forcefully masking up people (who may have a genuine exemption). If anyone can look at these images and still call this a democratic, free society, you need to have a long think about what that actually means:

View attachment 83150
(https://twitter.com/Zhope10/status/1302041831102849024)

View attachment 83151
(

)

View attachment 83152
(https://twitter.com/oliviakingia/status/1302209911451979778)

These images make me deeply uncomfortable. Also reported that police were caught choking a woman and later arrested her because she refused to wear a mask outside and didn't provide her name and address:

View attachment 83153



Terrifying stuff, it's scary just how authoritarian many democratic countries have become over a virus with a <1% death rate that mainly only affects the extremely clinically vulnerable.

This makes me seriously glad I do not live in Australia...
It is far more representative of the type of behaviour enjoyed by the Gestapo or ISIS than our UK concept of policing by consent
Fortunately this would not be tolerated here in the UK as I think even the hardiest Maskevists would not dare suggest our police behave like this

 

[Skimpot flyer]

True
Of course there are likely to be 3 versions of what happened
The Maskless possibly spitting/coughing Man's version of events
The BTP officer's version of events
The truth

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2020 ==


Rayners lane Station still has a large TFL poster that Mandates masks and does not mention exemptions
Meanwhile the charity shops where I moaned at two sites last week have done.... Nothing
Tomorrow formal complaint

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2020 ==



This makes me seriously glad I do not live in Australia...
It is far more representative of the type of behaviour enjoyed by the Gestapo or ISIS than our UK concept of policing by consent
Fortunately this would not be tolerated here in the UK as I think even the hardiest Maskevists would not dare suggest our police behave like this

Unfortunately, if you read the comments on Twitter under that video of the BTP Merseyrail incident, you will be shocked at how supportive some maskivists are !

 

[adc82140]

True
Of course there are likely to be 3 versions of what happened
The Maskless possibly spitting/coughing Man's version of events
The BTP officer's version of events
The truth

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2020 ==


Rayners lane Station still has a large TFL poster that Mandates masks and does not mention exemptions
Meanwhile the charity shops where I moaned at two sites last week have done.... Nothing
Tomorrow formal complaint

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2020 ==



This makes me seriously glad I do not live in Australia...
It is far more representative of the type of behaviour enjoyed by the Gestapo or ISIS than our UK concept of policing by consent
Fortunately this would not be tolerated here in the UK as I think even the hardiest Maskevists would not dare suggest our police behave like this

We all have this idea that Australia is all okey dokey matey Joe Mangel from Neighbours territory, but in reality this is only rural Oz. I know a couple of people who went to live in urban Australia, and they attest that there always has been a certain authoritarian streak in society there.

 

[6862]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if I am forced to wear a mask at my workplace in the education sector (or told to make anyone else wear one), I will resign from that job.

From tomorrow I have to wear a mask in the lab. I am a PhD student so I have no rights as I am not an employee, and there is no one who can stand up for us and point out the obvious safety concerns of wearing and adjusting a fabric mask when we deal with toxic chemicals. I am dreading it. How am I supposed to wear a mask for 10 hours with only a 10 minute break while I eat my lunch? Of course, being a university, there can be no free debate or any question of not complying, because they can (and have) just ban people from working in the lab if we break any of the Corona-rules.

 

[Reliablebeam]

We all have this idea that Australia is all okey dokey matey Joe Mangel from Neighbours territory, but in reality this is only rural Oz. I know a couple of people who went to live in urban Australia, and they attest that there always has been a certain authoritarian streak in society there.

I strongly concur, having lived there and still having friends there. NSW and Victoria are particularly bad in this regard - authoritarians combined with quite a strong nanny state attitude. Absolutely not the vision a lot of people seem to have of Australia.

From tomorrow I have to wear a mask in the lab. I am a PhD student so I have no rights as I am not an employee, and there is no one who can stand up for us and point out the obvious safety concerns of wearing and adjusting a fabric mask when we deal with toxic chemicals. I am dreading it. How am I supposed to wear a mask for 10 hours with only a 10 minute break while I eat my lunch? Of course, being a university, there can be no free debate or any question of not complying, because they can (and have) just ban people from working in the lab if we break any of the Corona-rules.

Masks at work would be my toys out of the pram moment, and I have made my views clear to my management chain. 6862, sorry to hear of your woes. We have not really gone the masks avenue in our labs for these reasons (chemical contamination etc) - although they are used quite zealously by two of the other research institutes on campus*. In fact the health and safety teams are opposed as well. Much of the demand for masks seems to be coming from unions stirring the pot and, at my site, directors with varying agendas.

*The situation for my PhD students is quite variable. At least one believes the social distancing one-way systems at her uni are actually worse for potential super-spreader moments.. She's currently my only student who is forced to mask up, but I think one of mine at another institute does so voluntarily.