UK face coverings discussion

[trainophile]

It's not usual to see a BTP officer on a Merseyrail train, so it seems someone must have called for assistance before the train arrived at the point where the filming commences. It's unlikely that he was summoned just to deal with someone not wearing a mask, therefore I am inclined to believe the spitting version of events.

 

[DB]

It's not usual to see a BTP officer on a Merseyrail train, so it seems someone must have called for assistance before the train arrived at the point where the filming commences. It's unlikely that he was summoned just to deal with someone not wearing a mask, therefore I am inclined to believe the spitting version of events.

Given that the police definitely have been getting calls about non-mask wearing, it's could have just been that they got a call about that. Depends what the BTP approach for this is in that area as to whether they ignore such calls or not.

 

[Domh245]

Given that the police definitely have been getting calls about non-mask wearing, it's could have just been that they got a call about that. Depends what the BTP approach for this is in that area as to whether they ignore such calls or not.

Getting calls and attending are two different kettles of fish! I would think that unless you've got officers doing nothing else (unlikely given what we hear about the BTP) or the situation is getting ugly, you'd probably not attend and simply tell the caller that there are higher priority incidents to attend

 

[yorkie]

It's not usual to see a BTP officer on a Merseyrail train, so it seems someone must have called for assistance ...

Police do routinely board trains without calls for assistance; indeed several Guards have recently been announcing on trains that BTP patrol randomly.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

This awful video has been spreading on twitter this evening.

https://twitter.com/StopComplying/status/1301603595842998272?s=19

Very disturbing indeed. I hope the officer concerned is given a formal reprimand at the very least

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The thing that strikes about the Merseyrail incident is not so much how the BTP officer reacted, but how the comments have flowed off the back of it. Until recently I would have expected a tirade of abuse for the bloke and praise for the copper, now the tide is turning and the Police are coming under more fire.

Right back at the very beginning, I thought that civil unrest would be imminent as the restrictions came into force, but I was proved wrong. For the very large part people have meekly accepted everything thrown at them, presumably because they thought that it would save them from the big bad virus, and that it wouldn't last too long.

Fast forward to now and people are starting to see that the big bad virus probably isn't going to get them, but the government & their appointed authorities are getting increasing aggressive with them. And with each video like this, people (at least some) are starting to get angry, both on the scene as demonstrated in that video, and beyond. Its this growing feeling of pent up frustration that might come back to bite the authorities on the backside.

This ^^^

 

[Bletchleyite]

* I add the caveat that my experiences whilst in a professional capacity are all in the London / SE area, so things may be more variable elsewhere perhaps.

As wearing seems to be much higher up North it wouldn't surprise me if BTP views followed that too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2020 ==

It's not usual to see a BTP officer on a Merseyrail train, so it seems someone must have called for assistance before the train arrived at the point where the filming commences. It's unlikely that he was summoned just to deal with someone not wearing a mask, therefore I am inclined to believe the spitting version of events.

If you watch the video you can see someone who looks like one of their "rentathugs" standing further back along the train, so I guess they did.

 

[Jonny]

Definitely a Merseyrail 507 or 508.

Cheers thought it looked familiar. I had an enjoyable few years living in Liverpool but there did seem to be an interesting policing culture....

Video footage of an incident is doing the rounds on social media at what appears to be at Liverpool Central Station on the Wirral Line platform. The video has been shared by an anti mask group, however I believe it was not filmed by them.

Now without doing the whole debate about face coverings being right or wrong, this footage shows some serious issues in the policing of the face covering laws. The officer's use of force seems unwarranted and to spray pepper spray onboard a train seems ridiculous.

As with all social media posts making allegations (particularly towards the Police), the whole story is probably not told in this footage. I must say that on the evidence shown here, the BTP have some serious questions to answer. Merseyrail also have a reputation for being somewhat heavy handed in their approach to dealing with laws/bylaws.

What I also find interesting is the public response on social media to these videos is a real mixed bag littered with false beliefs that anyone who is medically exempt must carry a certificate. This belief and these heavy handed tactics shown here are not going to do much to encourage people back to the railway. Quite a lot of people however are supporting the individual for standing up for himself and I find myself torn between both views. The bloke featured does not appear to have any health issues making him exempt but who am I (or a police officer) to judge. We can only take his word for it.

Do the laws relating to the use of face coverings on public transport need reviewing to avoid situations like this?

Links to the footage which has been posted on Twitter is below (I'm unable to embed twitter posts into this forum)

Edit: please note these videos contain some offensive language and physical violence.

Video 1
Video 2

My first thought was two words - excessive force. By that, I mean excessive force on the part of the police officer.

Hope the police get sued for that. Total a**********

https://twitter.com/BTPMersey/status/1301769503861362688?s=09

Regarding the video incident, tweet from BTP at approx. 0730. A man has been charged with a public order offence and assaulting an emergency worker.

Ideally it would be dropped before court, failing that I would expect that it would be self defence against excessive force; the alternative defence against common assault would be that the officer initiated the use of force. This sort of thing, when it happens in other countries, is what gives those countries' Police a bad name; I am genuinely saddened to see that a British Policeman has done such a thing. Also, what happened to "resisting arrest" or the equivalent, the most appropriate charge if the passenger has done anything legally wrong?

I was quite shocked when it became visible that that involved a BTP officer - I had, up to that point, thought it was one of Merseyrail's hired thugs.

As far as the law goes "I have a medical exemption" is the end of the conversation, whether the BTP happen to like it or not, or whether it is true or not. There does not appear to be any mechanism for validation.

Exactly - unless the police officer has other and better evidence to the contrary (which he did not), he should accept what is said. Whilst BTP officers are paid to fulfil the role of Constable, unlike Home Office/Territorial/etc. forces, their wages are paid by the rail industry. It is also of interest to note that he was not even accused of failing to wear a mask (or fares offences for that matter).

 

[farleigh]

Headteacher friend reports 1 child in mask out of 200 in school today. Hopefully the farce is drawing to a close.

 

[yorkie]

Headteacher friend reports 1 child in mask out of 200 in school today. Hopefully the farce is drawing to a close.

That's good to hear.

City of York Council wrote a letter to parents telling them that "The government ... are now recommending that adults and children wear face coverings in communal spaces in secondary schools and higher education settings."; we all know this isn't true, but I expect most parents will believe CYC to be telling the truth. After all, you'd expect a local Council to tell the truth, wouldn't you?

In any case, it's not compulsory, so it will be interesting to see what happens. I know a few teachers in York (plus a few forum members elsewhere who are teachers) so I will report back next week.

 

[trebor79]

Lengthy letter from our eldest son's primary school today. No mention of face masks other than "you may wear one if you choose when dropping your child off but it's not required".
Vague mention that staff working in close proximity of children may wear PPE. I think this is code for "staff are allowed to wear a mask if they want to". I doubt any will.

 

[johnnychips]

When our staff and students returned to college, I was expecting that some parents would refuse to send their children back because it was still too dangerous; or asking why staff and students weren’t obligated to wear masks. In fact, almost 100% attendance, we are all absolutely delighted to see each other and want to start learning again; the few students who want to wear masks at all times are completely tolerated without question.

 

[Huntergreed]

Had an absolutely fantastic trip back from London this evening, total opposite of the horrific trip I had down to London with mask-obsessed crew. Not one mention of masks on the journey home, nobody questioned why I wasn’t wearing one (i do have a valid exemption) and it was just an extremely pleasant trip that felt almost normal.

 

[trebor79]

Had an absolutely fantastic trip back from London this evening, total opposite of the horrific trip I had down to London with mask-obsessed crew. Not one mention of masks on the journey home, nobody questioned why I wasn’t wearing one (i do have a valid exemption) and it was just an extremely pleasant trip that felt almost normal.

Well that is very positive to hear.
I honestly haven't come across any mask-obsessed staff or mask vigilantes (with the exception of my wife and mother in law - we've had to agree we will never agree and it's therefore a banned topic as we just get annoyed with each other). It might happen at some point, but so far I've not had to say anything more than "I'm exempt so can't wear them, unfortunately" to be left alone.

 

[farleigh]

Had an absolutely fantastic trip back from London this evening, total opposite of the horrific trip I had down to London with mask-obsessed crew. Not one mention of masks on the journey home, nobody questioned why I wasn’t wearing one (i do have a valid exemption) and it was just an extremely pleasant trip that felt almost normal.

Great news - back to normal soon I hope.

 

[Yew]

Today I found myself instinctively taking it off during a trip to the shops after I had paid, without even noticing. To be fair, the shop was empty, and the staff behind screens

 

[Pete_uk]

Ok if he was deliberately coughing at people then it was right he got arrested

 

[duncanp]

But I wonder if he was just coughing due to an asthma attack, or something not related to Covid 19, and someone just texted the BTP to say he was doing it "deliberately" .

Unless you were there, you won't know the truth.

 

[kristiang85]

No it was not 100% correct. The officer will have questions to answer here.

What makes me even more dubious about the BTP handling here is even this morning, they stated that a passenger was spitting and then changed their story to spitting. It all stinks of incompetence to me.

The passenger has now been charged with "threatening behaviour" and "assaulting a police officer", so I can't see spitting being involved now.

I don't know if there was threatening behaviour beforehand, but as far as I could tell the police officer was doing more of the manhandling than the man himself.

 

[Bantamzen]

The passenger has now been charged with "threatening behaviour" and "assaulting a police officer", so I can't see spitting being involved now.

I don't know if there was threatening behaviour beforehand, but as far as I could tell the police officer was doing more of the manhandling than the man himself.

BTP Merseyside seem to be making it up as they go along. Worrying behaviour to say the least.

 

[nedchester]

The passenger has now been charged with "threatening behaviour" and "assaulting a police officer", so I can't see spitting being involved now.

I don't know if there was threatening behaviour beforehand, but as far as I could tell the police officer was doing more of the manhandling than the man himself.

The bylaws state that a passengers should comply with a reasonable request and that could include being asked to leave the train. There's another offence.

Regardless of the mask issue the bloke was a prat and being deliberately obstructive he deserved what he got and all the bad publicity. Oh and the police have the right use reasonable force.

Seems to me that many on here are using the mask issue to cloud their judgement. I'm no fan of masks / face coverings but I can see someone acting like a self entitled idiot with my own eyes.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The bylaws state that a passengers should comply with a reasonable request and that could include being asked to leave the train. There's another offence.

Regardless of the mask issue the bloke was a prat and being deliberately obstructive he deserved what he got and all the bad publicity. Oh and the police have the right use reasonable force.

Seems to me that many on here are using the mask issue to cloud their judgement. I'm no fan of masks / face coverings but I can see someone acting like a self entitled idiot with my own eyes.

So, next time you’re on a journey somewhere, if a BTP Officer asks you to leave the train, not citing what offence you have committed, not giving his name when asked (in contravention of the law), and uses ‘reasonable force’ to eject you, this would be ok??
I thought the passenger showed great restraint in the circumstances. He could easily have overpowered the older man, at least before the point he was pepper-sprayed.
You might like living in a police state. I certainly do not.

 

[scotrail158713]

So, next time you’re on a journey somewhere, if a BTP Officer asks you to leave the train, not citing what offence you have committed, not giving his name when asked (in contravention of the law), and uses ‘reasonable force’ to eject you, this would be ok??
I thought the passenger showed great restraint in the circumstances. He could easily have overpowered the older man, at least before the point he was pepper-sprayed.
You might like living in a police state. I certainly do not.

This^^^
From what I saw of the video the officer just repeatedly asked the man to leave without giving any reason for doing so. Now forgive me if I don’t want to leave a train just because someone asks me to, for no apparent reason.

 

[kristiang85]

The bylaws state that a passengers should comply with a reasonable request and that could include being asked to leave the train. There's another offence.

Regardless of the mask issue the bloke was a prat and being deliberately obstructive he deserved what he got and all the bad publicity. Oh and the police have the right use reasonable force.

Seems to me that many on here are using the mask issue to cloud their judgement. I'm no fan of masks / face coverings but I can see someone acting like a self entitled idiot with my own eyes.

I'm fully supportive of masks - I'm not entirely convinced they make too much of a difference, but even if it helps by 1% it is still a good thing. So I'm not clouded by that at all.

The bloke did not cover himself in glory, but my point is that I feel any aggression he had was due to the police being aggressive to him in the first place (based on what we saw on the video, which is a big caveat). To me its unprofessional from the BTP there. It's the same as nightclubs - the ones with aggressive bouncers tend to have the most fights. The ones with well trained, polite bouncers don't have half as much trouble.

 

[bramling]

The passenger has now been charged with "threatening behaviour" and "assaulting a police officer", so I can't see spitting being involved now.

I don't know if there was threatening behaviour beforehand, but as far as I could tell the police officer was doing more of the manhandling than the man himself.

It does seem like the spitting has now been ruled out, and it’s changed to coughing.

So quite possibly all he was doing was sitting there devoid of mask and happened to cough, which someone has then taken exception to and reported.

One way or other, this is extremely disturbing, and there needs to be a full explanation from the BTP as to exactly what did happen.

I’m getting to the point where it’s feeling like time has come to start more actively and directly sticking two fingers up at the maskophiles now.

 

[nedchester]

So, next time you’re on a journey somewhere, if a BTP Officer asks you to leave the train, not citing what offence you have committed, not giving his name when asked (in contravention of the law), and uses ‘reasonable force’ to eject you, this would be ok??
I thought the passenger showed great restraint in the circumstances. He could easily have overpowered the older man, at least before the point he was pepper-sprayed.
You might like living in a police state. I certainly do not.

We only see what is in the video but you see poor belligerent attitude which is hardly likely to win any favours. I also have it on good authority that he has 'form' on Merseyrail already.

I do think many on this forum are using their 'anti-mask' stance to take a different view than they would normally do.

In any case the bloke has now been charged and we will see what the result is when he has his day in court in January.

 

[bramling]

We only see what is in the video but you see poor belligerent attitude which is hardly likely to win any favours. I also have it on good authority that he has 'form' on Merseyrail already.

I do think many on this forum are using their 'anti-mask' stance to take a different view than they would normally do.

In an case the bloke has now been charged and we will see what the result is when he has his day in court in January.

The difficulty is that the footage very clearly shows him being challenged on the basis of not wearing a mask.

If there is more to it then why was he not pulled off the train on that basis, rather than laying on a continuing display about the lack of mask?

Waiting until January is not acceptable, this will quite rightly be concerning to many, and one way or other BTP need to explain themselves. If there’s more to it then they need to demonstrate that.

 

[yorkie]

There are no winners here. BTP handled it extremely badly, no matter what previous form he had.

As for the outcome, if he doesn't get a good solicitor he is obviously going to lose, but that doesn't mean BTP acted correctly. It won't tell us much.

 

[bramling]

There are no winners here. BTP handled it extremely badly, no matter what previous form he had.

Quite so, and seeing scenes like that is hardly going to encourage people to consider returning to public transport.

 

[adc82140]

Even if the person being chucked off was in the wrong and was kicking off, the police in this country have a duty to be courteous and professional at all times. They must maintain the moral high ground. This officer did not.