UK face coverings discussion

[Wuffle]

Certainly in Scottish secondary schools, masks are mandatory in corridors and communal areas for staff (which I totally disagree with, along with the mandate for students) and this is (I think?) a legal requirement.

My Wife and daughter work in the same school, fortunately not in Scotland, and the Head has stated a policy of No Masks except for those deemed vulnerable who must wear "proper protective masks"
My son and son in law work in 2 other schools which go back today and I believe that neither of those schools are enforcing a mandatory mask policy

The problem is that the devolved governments are doing their best to make political capital of the "crisis" regardless of the misery caused

 

[talldave]

The problem is that the devolved governments are doing their best to make political capital of the "crisis" regardless of the misery caused

Which is all the more despicable when children are being used as political pawns.

 

[Scotrail12]

Note - don't run for a train while wearing a mask. Just had a very tight connection at Queen St - felt like my ears were going to explode.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even within a small area of London there are observable differences. We have 4 branches of Sainsbury's within easy reach and it's possible to predict mask uptake in each based on the affluence or poshness of the immediate area. Compliance is higher the more affluent you go because the "doing the right thing", "not wanting to offend" level is proportional.

Unfortunately our closest branch is the "poshest", so as a non wearer I feel like a posh fish out of water!

Today I was in Carlisle, which isn't all that posh, and wearing was high (including on the streets). There seems to be a north south divide on this, with more street wearing in the north - pretty much nobody at all seems to down South other than those of obviously Asian descent where it is a cultural matter anyway and was seen before COVID.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2020 ==

Note - don't run for a train while wearing a mask. Just had a very tight connection at Queen St - felt like my ears were going to explode.

If that's not a figure of speech I'd suggest going to see your doctor with some urgency. Physical exertion with a mask on may cause breathing to be harder (i.e. you'd be heavy breathing more than if you weren't wearing one if you did while running), but if it caused pressure in your head/ears there is something you need to have investigated there. After all, plenty of cyclists choose to wear one normally to filter out pollution.

 

[Huntergreed]

Today I was in Carlisle, which isn't all that posh, and wearing was high (including on the streets). There seems to be a north south divide on this, with more street wearing in the north - pretty much nobody at all seems to down South other than those of obviously Asian descent where it is a cultural matter anyway and was seen before COVID.

From being in London this week, I can firmly agree that this is true. Compliance is much lower down here (although it is still quite high) and nobody at all wears masks in the street, up north when I was in Carlisle on Monday there were a lot of people wearing one. Equally, in Scotland there seems to be many more street-wearers than in the south.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From being in London this week, I can firmly agree that this is true. Compliance is much lower down here (although it is still quite high) and nobody at all wears masks in the street, up north when I was in Carlisle on Monday there were a lot of people wearing one. Equally, in Scotland there seems to be many more street-wearers than in the south.

Yes, I noticed that too (earlier in the week I was in Ullapool where quite a lot of people were wearing them on the street, at least to the extent that you actually get "quite a lot of people" in Ullapool ).

 

[adc82140]

There are mostly chin wearers round here in Dorset. Which annoys the hell out of me. Either wear one properly, or don't wear one at all. Just don't put it on the muckiest bit of your face.

 

[madannie77]

Today I was in Carlisle, which isn't all that posh, and wearing was high (including on the streets). There seems to be a north south divide on this, with more street wearing in the north - pretty much nobody at all seems to down South other than those of obviously Asian descent where it is a cultural matter anyway and was seen before COVID.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2020 ==

From being in London this week, I can firmly agree that this is true. Compliance is much lower down here (although it is still quite high) and nobody at all wears masks in the street, up north when I was in Carlisle on Monday there were a lot of people wearing one. Equally, in Scotland there seems to be many more street-wearers than in the south.

I was in "my shop" in Carlisle for the first time since we were forced to close in March. I was back of shop for various reasons, but my husband was out front and he tells me that mask wearing in the shop was around 75-80% of customers, but that all except one of those people put their mask on immediately before entering or after entering the shop, and that the masks came off as soon as they were out of the shop, if not before. This suggests that many people are using the mask merely as a means to get into shops without any hassle and not because they see it as an effective means of controlling this virus.

He also tells me that very few people walking past the shop were wearing masks, and on the way to and from the shop I would concur. The only people I saw wearing masks on the streets were a few waiting at bus stops. I saw no-one walking around with a mask on at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was in "my shop" in Carlisle for the first time since we were forced to close in March. I was back of shop for various reasons, but my husband was out front and he tells me that mask wearing in the shop was around 75-80% of customers, but that all except one of those people put their mask on immediately before entering or after entering the shop, and that the masks came off as soon as they were out of the shop, if not before. This suggests that many people are using the mask merely as a means to get into shops without any hassle and not because they see it as an effective means of controlling this virus.

I don't think it does say that, though it may well do to some. It could also say that it is well-understood that transmission outdoors is negligible, and therefore it is only necessary to wear masks indoors.

 

[trainophile]

I don't think it does say that, though it may well do to some. It could also say that it is well-understood that transmission outdoors is negligible, and therefore it is only necessary to wear masks indoors.

I doubt many people use that degree of rationality. They take them off because they are a blasted nuisance to wear.

 

[madannie77]

I don't think it does say that, though it may well do to some. It could also say that it is well-understood that transmission outdoors is negligible, and therefore it is only necessary to wear masks indoors.

Having asked my husband about the mask removal by customers as they exited the shop it would seem that very few followed the procedures as suggested by the government advice with regard to hand cleaning before & after and correct storage of the face covering. This suggests to me that customers were using face coverings as nothing more than a means to get in shops, as surely anyone wearing a mask in the belief that it helps to prevent the spread of this virus would surely handle the mask in the manner advised by the government.

 

[Scotrail12]

If that's not a figure of speech I'd suggest going to see your doctor with some urgency. Physical exertion with a mask on may cause breathing to be harder (i.e. you'd be heavy breathing more than if you weren't wearing one if you did while running), but if it caused pressure in your head/ears there is something you need to have investigated there. After all, plenty of cyclists choose to wear one normally to filter out pollution.

It was kinda the same feeling that you get during descent on a flight.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It was kinda the same feeling that you get during descent on a flight.

I just tried inhaling and exhaling heavily with my hand over my mouth (so far more resistance than a fabric mask would cause) and that didn't happen. Only way I can make it happen is by completely sealing my mouth and nose.

I'd get that checked out, or claim an exemption.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I traveled from Cheshunt to Barbican and back yesterday and wasn’t asked by anyone about having to wear a mask.

There were two masked staff at the bottom of the stairs at the entrance to Liv St tube stood either side looking up the stairs. I was amazed but glad they didn’t say anything

 

[MrTurbostar170]

This awful video of a BTP officer attacking a passenger without a mask, claiming exemption, has been spreading on twitter this evening.

https://twitter.com/StopComplying/status/1301603595842998272?s=19

 

[farleigh]

Heartening return to work today. 100 people in the room - no masks and a real feel of returning to normal. Light at the end??

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2020 ==

This awful video has been spreading on twitter this evening.

https://twitter.com/StopComplying/status/1301603595842998272?s=19

Vile -hope action is taken

 

[Ken_Ilworth]

Loads of these litter the ground in my area. Can't walk to the shops without seeing quite a few on the ground. Very frustrating.

During the forum walk this afternoon along the Thames path I took 44 photos of separate discarded masks. Some photos have 2 masks in. Therefore approximately 50 masks in about 7 miles. I won't post all pictures, but attached is a screenshot of my gallery..☹️

 

[sheff1]

This awful video has been spreading on twitter this evening.

https://twitter.com/StopComplying/status/1301603595842998272?s=19

Disgraceful, but exactly the sort of behaviour some posters on here have spoken in favour of for weeks.

 

[Scrotnig]

The sheer ignorance in some of the comments below that video is astounding....except it's not because I've seen it so many times.

 

[BJames]

This awful video has been spreading on twitter this evening.

https://twitter.com/StopComplying/status/1301603595842998272?s=19

Shocking, and not exactly doing much to reassure those exempt that their lack of face mask is valid e.g. @Scrotnig's concerns going about day to day life while exempt. Concerning that some seem to think this is ok. Even those who are not exempt should not be treated like this (unless they become violent of course) - non compliance is a £100 fine, not arrest. A very fine line we are walking and yet some people seem to think this is ok. The police need to accept an explanation of "I am exempt".

 

[yorkie]

Vile -hope action is taken

Bizarrely someone is claiming an "exemption certificate" needs to be shown:

https://twitter.com/Bunglebob66/status/1301631948067143680

Underlying health conditions.... Then he should prove it by having an exemption certificate. Simple. Looked as fit as fiddle.

Does anyone know what an "exemption certificate" is?!

As for "looked as fit as a fiddle", I'd love to know how to tell if someone has a condition such as asthma just by looking at them!

I've never previously been able to do this; is there some technique I am missing?

During the forum walk this afternoon along the Thames path I took 44 photos of separate discarded masks. Some photos have 2 masks in. Therefore approximately 50 masks in about 7 miles. I won't post all pictures, but attached is a screenshot of my gallery..☹View attachment 83068

I hold the pro-mask lobbyists at least part responsible, indirectly, for every one of these.

I vow now to resign from my job in education, if I am forced to wear a face covering in the office or corridors.

 

[BJames]

Bizarrely someone is claiming an "exemption certificate" needs to be shown:

https://twitter.com/Bunglebob66/status/1301631948067143680

Does anyone know what an "exemption certificate" is?!

Yet another ridiculous, made up claim from a pro-masker on Twitter. It's a non-existent item. This is directly from the gov.uk website:

[Withdrawn] [Withdrawn] Face coverings: when to wear one, exemptions and what makes a good one

www.gov.uk

Exemption cards
Those who have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering should not be routinely asked to give any written evidence of this, this includes exemption cards. No person needs to seek advice or request a letter from a medical professional about their reason for not wearing a face covering.

Some people may feel more comfortable showing something that says they do not have to wear a face covering. This could be in the form of an exemption card, badge or even a home-made sign.

This is a personal choice and is not necessary in law.

Our own government's website says that you do not need to give evidence, get an official letter or any proof - and that the only reason you should have an exemption card or badge is to make yourself feel more comfortable.

We really need to get everyone (from the general public to transport/shop staff and the police) to understand this. It's incredibly infuriating, especailly as it's not a complicated concept.

 

[LowLevel]

Ultimately as someone who is indifferent it should have gone one of two ways on this issue - like France (which isn't exactly a bastion of despotism, the French set fire to things the moment they feel oppressed) and the rule is the rule, if you really can't comply you don't go to locations requiring a face covering and you either get used to the idea and get on with it or you effectively shield to one degree or another. The other way is not to have the rule at all.

A wishy washy middle ground is pointless.

 

[bramling]

The sheer ignorance in some of the comments below that video is astounding....except it's not because I've seen it so many times.

Have to say I thought the opposite - quite a few of the replies seemed fairly anti-mask, which for sensationalist social media like Twitter is mildly encouraging.

There is, of course, a fair share of pretty disgusting stuff on there, not least one or two comments along the lines of “he doesn’t look like he has any issue” or “there shouldn’t be any exemptions it’s tough luck”.

Much as I tend to be wary of conspiracy theories (never attribute to conspiracy what can be attributed to incompetence, which for this government is particularly apt), I’m increasingly coming to the view that there’s certainly a hefty element of bullying and control with masks.

The amount of sheer unpleasantness from maskophiles is at times breathtaking (and from personal experience with people I know and associate with there’s an uncanny correlation between being a general bell-end and being pro-mask), and the ridiculous thing is how many of them bang on about how essential masks are, yet totally fail to use them correctly themselves. If they’re so convinced of the actual value then surely they’d have made the effort to find out how to use their own mask correctly?

 

[Reliablebeam]

What TOC is this video? Is it Merseyrail? Anyway, you can bet this stunning example of the BTP would not have pulled this stunt in many areas of TfL. It seems to be largely voluntary now on my sections of GWR/tfl land...

 

[bramling]

What TOC is this video? Is it Merseyrail? Anyway, you can bet this stunning example of the BTP would not have pulled this stunt in many areas of TfL. It seems to be largely voluntary now on my sections of GWR/tfl land...

Definitely a Merseyrail 507 or 508.

 

[Reliablebeam]

Definitely a Merseyrail 507 or 508.

Cheers thought it looked familiar. I had an enjoyable few years living in Liverpool but there did seem to be an interesting policing culture....

 

[yorkie]

In a letter to parents, City of York Council (CYC) say:

The government has subsequently changed their guidance and are now recommending that adults and children wear face coverings in communal spaces in secondary schools and higher education settings.

Is that true?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...us-outbreak/guidance-for-full-opening-schools says:

The government is not recommending universal use of face coverings in all schools...

Are CYC lying?

( @johnnychips @Merseysider are you aware of similar claims being made in your areas?)

 

[8J]

Video footage of an incident is doing the rounds on social media at what appears to be at Liverpool Central Station on the Wirral Line platform. The video has been shared by an anti mask group, however I believe it was not filmed by them.

Now without doing the whole debate about face coverings being right or wrong, this footage shows some serious issues in the policing of the face covering laws. The officer's use of force seems unwarranted and to spray pepper spray onboard a train seems ridiculous.

As with all social media posts making allegations (particularly towards the Police), the whole story is probably not told in this footage. I must say that on the evidence shown here, the BTP have some serious questions to answer. Merseyrail also have a reputation for being somewhat heavy handed in their approach to dealing with laws/bylaws.

What I also find interesting is the public response on social media to these videos is a real mixed bag littered with false beliefs that anyone who is medically exempt must carry a certificate. This belief and these heavy handed tactics shown here are not going to do much to encourage people back to the railway. Quite a lot of people however are supporting the individual for standing up for himself and I find myself torn between both views. The bloke featured does not appear to have any health issues making him exempt but who am I (or a police officer) to judge. We can only take his word for it.

Do the laws relating to the use of face coverings on public transport need reviewing to avoid situations like this?

Links to the footage which has been posted on Twitter is below (I'm unable to embed twitter posts into this forum)

Edit: please note these videos contain some offensive language and physical violence.

Video 1
Video 2

 

[MikeWM]

Are CYC lying?

They are wrong, certainly. The otherwise-useless Gavin Williamson made that clear in the House of Commons on Tuesday:

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...AndCollegesQualificationResultsAndFullOpening

My hon. Friend speaks incredibly passionately about the importance of ensuring that youngsters are in the best position to be able to learn in the best and most comfortable environment. We do not believe it is necessary for youngsters or people at school to wear a face mask, except where we have made it mandatory in local lockdown areas. The chief medical officer and the deputy chief medical officer have been consistent in their approach—that this is not something needed in every school right across the country. Where people are not in local lockdown areas, there is no need to wear a face mask, but what is so important is to see all children welcomed back.