UK face coverings discussion

[AdamWW]

Looking at the Welsh rules for face coverings:

We advise people to carry information if possible which demonstrates why they have a reasonable excuse (for example a prescription or evidence such as a hospital appointment letter relating to a medical condition). A number of organisations such as transport operators have created cards that can be downloaded from their websites and printed.

The first part seems to be advising some sort of official proof of exemption. The second one seems to be suggesting otherwise.

 

[DB]

Looking at the Welsh rules for face coverings:



The first part seems to be advising some sort of official proof of exemption. The second one seems to be suggesting otherwise.

And the concept that people should show medical documentation to some security goon is ridiculous!

Are the exemptions the same as in England - i.e. some of them not specifically medical?

 

[MikeWM]

And the concept that people should show medical documentation to some security goon is ridiculous!

Are the exemptions the same as in England - i.e. some of them not specifically medical?

Mostly the same, though the 'or cause severe distress' bit isn't there last time I looked.


Edit : here's the full thing for transport

(4) The circumstances in which P has a reasonable excuse to not wear a face covering include—
(a)where P is unable to put on, wear or remove a face covering because of a physical or mental illness or impairment, or a disability (within the meaning of section 6 of the Equality Act 2010);
(b)where P has to remove the face covering to communicate with another person who has difficulty communicating (in relation to speech, language or otherwise);
(c)where P has to remove the face covering in order to avoid harm or injury, or the risk of harm or injury, to themselves or others;
(d)where P is travelling to avoid injury, or to escape a risk of harm, and does not have a face covering;
(e)where P has to remove the face covering to—
(i)take medication;
(ii)eat or drink, if this is allowed on the vehicle and is reasonably necessary (for example due to the length of the journey);
(f)where P is asked to remove the face covering by—
(i)an enforcement officer, or
(ii)the operator of the public transport service, an employee of the operator or a person authorised by the operator.

 

[Scrotnig]

Leicestershire County Council and Leicester City Council have jointly asked all parents to wear masks when meeting their children outside school.

This is the first official'wear masks outside' directive I have seen. I suspect it's the first of many.

Leicester parents told to wear masks on the school run

Parents across both the city and county have been asked by public health bosses to use face-coverings at pick ups and drop offs

www.leicestermercury.co.uk

“We have requested that all parents and carers across the county wear face coverings when dropping off and picking up their children from school.

"Children’s safety is a priority and we have taken this decision to further support children’s return to education and help to reduce the spread of coronavirus."

 

[DB]

Leicestershire County Council and Leicester City Council have jointly asked all parents to wear masks when meeting their children outside school.

This is the first official'wear masks outside' directive I have seen. I suspect it's the first of many.

Leicester parents told to wear masks on the school run

Parents across both the city and county have been asked by public health bosses to use face-coverings at pick ups and drop offs

www.leicestermercury.co.uk

I note that they link it to 'children's safety' - ignoring the point that kids are at very low risk anyway.

I live round the corner from a secondary school, and I've noticed a number of the kids and staff are walking to and from school wearing masks. Seems to be a minority, but a reasonable number nonetheless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I note that they link it to 'children's safety' - ignoring the point that kids are at very low risk anyway.

I live round the corner from a secondary school, and I've noticed a number of the kids and staff are walking to and from school wearing masks. Seems to be a minority, but a reasonable number nonetheless.

This is probably in line with people you see walking on the street with them.

 

[yorkie]

I note that they link it to 'children's safety' - ignoring the point that kids are at very low risk anyway.

I live round the corner from a secondary school, and I've noticed a number of the kids and staff are walking to and from school wearing masks. Seems to be a minority, but a reasonable number nonetheless.

Their idea of a "safe environment for children" is absolutely the opposite of that from a mental health perspective. Schools are not "safer" than they were before; they are now places where depression, boredom and frustration are much more likely than before.

I don't accept the views of those who do not see the bigger picture; I listen to people like Anders Tegnell instead.

 

[mmh]

Looking at the Welsh rules for face coverings:



The first part seems to be advising some sort of official proof of exemption. The second one seems to be suggesting otherwise.

Thank you very very much for sharing that. I'll be bringing that up with a couple of ASs tomorrow who, despite both being fully in line with their party coronanonsense lines, are both very responsive to constituents.

What an utter farce this all is.

 

[furlong]

So if I enter let’s say McDonald’s and that’s at the door I just open camera, scan and nothing more?

No.

As I understand it, it is now mandatory for pubs to collect the information, whereas before it was voluntary.

Yes (soon).

Following the now-typically incoherent approach taken by this Health Secretary, if a customer uses the new government app with the government-supplied QR code poster that identifies to the app the premises, this does not discharge the duty on the premises to collect the information itself. Use of the app apparently supplements and does not replace other Track and Trace requirements. Just as masks supplement and do not replace 2m "distancing". Let's see whether the Court of Appeal decides whether any or even all of the legal framework the government is using is ultra vires in a couple of weeks.

 

[kez19]

No.


Yes (soon).

Following the now-typically incoherent approach taken by this Health Secretary, if a customer uses the new government app with the government-supplied QR code poster that identifies to the app the premises, this does not discharge the duty on the premises to collect the information itself. Use of the app apparently supplements and does not replace other Track and Trace requirements. Just as masks supplement and do not replace 2m "distancing". Let's see whether the Court of Appeal decides whether any or even all of the legal framework the government is using is ultra vires in a couple of weeks.

To answer my own question I was able to properly look that with the scan code some places say this code will link to a site then state let’s say “area” number/location, I’m becoming more inclined just to take away than sit in if that’s more possible

just to add some places have mentioned the track/trace app

 

[AdamWW]

No.


Yes (soon).

Following the now-typically incoherent approach taken by this Health Secretary, if a customer uses the new government app with the government-supplied QR code poster that identifies to the app the premises, this does not discharge the duty on the premises to collect the information itself. Use of the app apparently supplements and does not replace other Track and Trace requirements. Just as masks supplement and do not replace 2m "distancing". Let's see whether the Court of Appeal decides whether any or even all of the legal framework the government is using is ultra vires in a couple of weeks.

While it would be interesting to see if they have done something wrong, it must be the case that parliament does have the powers needed and that if required a bill could be brought through re-implementing the current regulations.

 

[DB]

While it would be interesting to see if they have done something wrong, it must be the case that parliament does have the powers needed and that if required a bill could be brought through re-implementing the current regulations.

Yes, it could - but that would need to be done properly rather than by misusing emergency powers

 

[birchesgreen]

didn’t realize it had already been mentioned. I suppose it would have the benefit of ensuring everyone follows the 6 feet rule when around you

All these posts adder up

 

[island]

While it would be interesting to see if they have done something wrong, it must be the case that parliament does have the powers needed and that if required a bill could be brought through re-implementing the current regulations.

Yes, the operative word being a bill, as distinct from a statutory instrument.

 

[furlong]

it must be the case that parliament does have the powers needed and that if required a bill could be brought through re-implementing the current regulations.

That is the point - the minister potentially having acted repeatedly to bypass parliamentary scrutiny, failed to carry out impact assessments (which might have led to the law being different), perhaps legislating in breach of human rights and people subject to life-changing financial penalties from mere PCSOs (amounts many times larger than ever before using this type of mechanism) and potentially criminal records (some trials already scheduled) etc
His latest ruse this week has been to try to get away with extending the reach of the penalties to those who don't follow the government's separate and completely unregulated "guidance" (which might have posed a problem for Cummings' get-out mechanism if they'd tried this trick sooner - you might argue Cummings breached guidance but not law, but now they're writing wider all-encompassing penalties into law but allowing exemptions if you're following their separate guidance which they can change on a whim without any parliamentary involvement). The bureaucrats are continuing to push the boundaries of our governing dictatorship against a weak opposition, a weak parliament and weak courts and one of those three calling them out and attempting to wind some of this back is long overdue.

 

[trebor79]

His latest ruse this week has been to try to get away with extending the reach of the penalties to those who don't follow the government's separate and completely unregulated "guidance" (which might have posed a problem for Cummings' get-out mechanism if they'd tried this trick sooner).

That is extremely concerning and something I hadn't heard about. Please can you point me to where you've read this?

 

[furlong]

That is extremely concerning and something I hadn't heard about. Please can you point me to where you've read this?

Nowhere, but just read the 'Rule of Six' regulations and decide for yourself - bearing in mind the previously clear distinction between guidance and law which is becoming increasingly fuzzy as this crisis unfolds. The government's canny lawyers show every sign of continuing confidence in keeping one step ahead and attempting to establish new norms that permanently extend the executive's reach while everyone plays catch up.

[Speculative] Consider that one scenario that they might need to prepare for is that of being asked to implement mandatory vaccination without it being explicitly mandatory. (The government seems to be taking steps to prepare the ground for giving itself the option of imposing mandatory vaccination.) Just as schools have remained open throughout the crisis and all children have continued to receive a typical education as far as the law is concerned (but in the real world most children weren't at school and weren't educated), they may need a legal mechanism whereby government lawyers can prove that vaccines are not mandatory in law (but in the real world everyone finds themselves mandated to accept a jab).

 

[Bikeman78]

I note that they link it to 'children's safety' - ignoring the point that kids are at very low risk anyway.

No doubt the parents are still parking on the pavement near the schools which is a greater risk to children than Covid.

 

[STINT47]

Looking at the Welsh rules for face coverings:



The first part seems to be advising some sort of official proof of exemption. The second one seems to be suggesting otherwise.

I currently claim ESA and am in the support group. To get this I had to go through the work capability assessment.

Is the Welsh goverment seriously suggesting that I should carry my DWP letters and medical reports to present to the security man on the supermarket door?

 

[AdamWW]

That is the point - the minister potentially having acted repeatedly to bypass parliamentary scrutiny, failed to carry out impact assessments

I'm not disagreeing with that.

But (I should have said) from what I recall the people behind the challenge seem to be expecting that if they are successful it will mean the government will have to drop all restrictions and let the country go back to 'normal'. And I do not think that is true.

 

[DB]

But (I should have said) from what I recall the people behind the challenge seem to be expecting that if they are successful it will mean the government will have to drop all restrictions and let the country go back to 'normal'. And I do not think that is true.

I've not looked at their particular challenges, but I doubt they will be so naive as to believe that.

 

[adc82140]

Thank you very very much for sharing that. I'll be bringing that up with a couple of ASs tomorrow who, despite both being fully in line with their party coronanonsense lines, are both very responsive to constituents.

What an utter farce this all is.

You could ask to see evidence that all security guards have signed a confidentiality clause in their contract, and that there is evidence they have passed assessments on the Caldicot principles. Of course they won't have done, so asking to see medical records is illegal

 

[AdamWW]

You could ask to see evidence that all security guards have signed a condidentiality clause in their contract, and that there is evidence they have passed assessments on the Caldicot principles. Of course they won't have done, so asking to see medical records is illegal

An interesting point.

This is probably in line with people you see walking on the street with them.

Depends on the reason - I think to avoid having to take a mask on and off when going in and out of shops is a pretty reasonable one.

I've not looked at their particular challenges, but I doubt they will be so naive as to believe that.

I was thinking of this one

What we wish to achieve in bringing this case, is simply the freedom of individuals - the freedom to visit friends, freedom to earn a living, to socialise, in essence, the freedom of choice. That, of course, includes the freedom to stay inside - should you choose.

 

[jtuk]

I was thinking of this one

Which, irritatingly today, has been pushed back a month because one of the defendant lawyers is on holiday

 

[Yew]

Which, irritatingly today, has been pushed back a month because one of the defendant lawyers is on holiday

Presumably, next time it will be delayed due to a local lockdown? It's starting to feel like the Government think they've lost, and are delaying for the sake of it.

 

[trebor79]

Which, irritatingly today, has been pushed back a month because one of the defendant lawyers is on holiday

How convenient unfortunate.

 

[Huntergreed]

Was out in a pub for dinner tonight, first time since new Scottish mask rules in hospitality came into force.

Overall, it wasn't too bad in all honesty. Masks on when we walked in and again when we left, but apart from that it did feel fine (although the masking up did seem entirely pointless).

One gentleman who was sitting across from me went to the toilet without a mask, and upon returning to his seat the manager asked him why he didn't wear one. He said he was exempt and was (as is sadly becoming increasingly common it seems) asked for an exemption certificate. He said that he didn't have one and the manager said that he didn't mind and actually he didn't agree with the mask rules, but had been being hassled by Covid marshalls in town to be more stringent when applying the mask law.

This pub would normally be packed when I went in (Thursday early evening) and tonight there were 5 tables in total (out of around 65). I imagine this is due to a mix of the two household rule, the rule of six and the no music rule (which really does kill the atmosphere).

I do fear for the hospitality sector as I don't see this being viable for a prolonged period without either financial support or significant easing of restrictions before Christmas, neither of which seems likely at this point sadly.

 

[kez19]

Was out in a pub for dinner tonight, first time since new Scottish mask rules in hospitality came into force.

Overall, it wasn't too bad in all honesty. Masks on when we walked in and again when we left, but apart from that it did feel fine (although the masking up did seem entirely pointless).

One gentleman who was sitting across from me went to the toilet without a mask, and upon returning to his seat the manager asked him why he didn't wear one. He said he was exempt and was (as is sadly becoming increasingly common it seems) asked for an exemption certificate. He said that he didn't have one and the manager said that he didn't mind and actually he didn't agree with the mask rules, but had been being hassled by Covid marshalls in town to be more stringent when applying the mask law.

This pub would normally be packed when I went in (Thursday early evening) and tonight there were 5 tables in total (out of around 65). I imagine this is due to a mix of the two household rule, the rule of six and the no music rule (which really does kill the atmosphere).

I do fear for the hospitality sector as I don't see this being viable for a prolonged period without either financial support or significant easing of restrictions before Christmas, neither of which seems likely at this point sadly.

What’s with the no music policy in places? It just kills the mood, don’t know why pubs/restaurants can just keep it minimal.

I think hotels can do ok, just depends on extent they can do, ie if they run their own cafes/bars and what they can do

 

[Huntergreed]

What’s with the no music policy in places? It just kills the mood, don’t know why pubs/restaurants can just keep it minimal.

It’s law in Scotland sadly. According to Sturgeon, it makes people talk more loudly and increases the risk as a result.

 

[Skittle]

It’s law in Scotland sadly. According to Sturgeon, it makes people talk more loudly and increases the risk as a result.

It's a cross between I'm creased and I'm dying inside. Just wha? Oh the alcohol doesn't eventually erode people's ability to be quiet but that music? We aren't planning to play the Macarena and break out into dance. We just some sound with our pints/spaghetti.

I have to say I don't find it too bad either, I mean there's changes so expect some differences (she says after her indignant stance on no music) I think there were will start to be places which will feel more comfortable than others. For example, never had an issue in one cafe but I went to a different one after a swim and it was like a marshal/policing and it felt bit like I wasn't really supposed to be there. I don't think I'll use them next time I rushed over a very hot drink in order to leave.

I'm glad to read that the manager was empathetic though to who didn't have a mask or this magical certificate.