Uk double deck trains

[Traindesign]

Good evening all,
Is there anyone here who would like to be involved in a uk double deck train project? I have registered designs and am waiting to see where we go next, this is not pie in the sky and comes from a very experienced railman, next stage mock-up which means money!!

 

[Wath Yard]

I never travelled on them but weren't the BR double deckers cramped, had station dwell times that were too long and universally disliked? What have you incorporated in your design to make them superior?

 

[bronzeonion]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Saro_E232-3005.JPG/800px-Saro_E232-3005.JPG

Something like that would work with our loading guage?

 

[jopsuk]

That's wider than would fit in UK loading gauge.

I'd urge anyone offering comments and advice to read over Traindesign's old posts to check that you're not just rehashing previous discussions. Click on his username and select "Find More Posts by".

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There was a diagram in Rail a few months ago of an offset corridor design for a double decker... maybe a cross between the two ideas?

Pity you can't fit a Z20500 in the UK loading guage; I quite like those...

 

[richw]

That's wider than would fit in UK loading gauge.

I'd urge anyone offering comments and advice to read over Traindesign's old posts to check that you're not just rehashing previous discussions. Click on his username and select "Find More Posts by".

I was thinking i'd seen a near identical thread previously. Turns out I'd made comment in the December 2010 thread of identical first posts

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2

 

[sprinterguy]

I'd urge anyone offering comments and advice to read over Traindesign's old posts to check that you're not just rehashing previous discussions. Click on his username and select "Find More Posts by".

For reference, the previous thread by Traindesign on this subject is here:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=39329

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder why we don't ever see posts from Bombardier or Siemens etc inviting input from the enthusiast community?

Do these repeating threads mean that Arups report to the DfT on the practicalities of DD trains has been proven to be completely wrong?

 

[LexyBoy]

Well it works as the DFT will tell you, there will be a mock-up in the near future

Two years later and you're still no closer to having a mock-up? Or indeed being able to disclose any details/designs in public which I would think would come long before a mock-up? And someone who claims to be respected in the industry asking for help from a public forum.

Forgive me if I remain rather skeptical.

 

[Lee_Again]

I wonder why we don't ever see posts from Bombardier or Siemens etc inviting input from the enthusiast community?

A quick read through various posts on this forum will tell you why.

Many are full of ill-informed comment and nostalgic rubbish.

Some will turn a modern looking double decker concept in to something resembling a Mk1 slammer with a kettle on the front. Oh, and in BR colours and built in Swindon.

We're lucky enough to have plenty of excellent heritage lines in this country to satisfy there needs. What we do need is new ideas from people not blinded by history or prejudice. Some enthusiasts would be able to offer some excellent ideas but too many here don't fit that requirement. Fresh thinking is what's needed.

 

[swt_passenger]

A quick read through various posts on this forum will tell you why.

Many are full of ill-informed comment and nostalgic rubbish.

Agree - I should have included a smiley...

Some will turn a modern looking double decker concept in to something resembling a Mk1 slammer with a kettle on the front. Oh, and in BR colours and built in Swindon.

My point was just that DfT commissioned a report that came down against even a new design of UK double deckers (on existing infrastructure). Was that report totally wrong then?

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Wouldnt you have to rebuild every single bridge in the uk where a double decker train will run? Time and money we don't have. Sorry to burst your bubble in a way OP

 

[Wath Yard]

I'd urge anyone offering comments and advice to read over Traindesign's old posts to check that you're not just rehashing previous discussions. Click on his username and select "Find More Posts by".

Shame. I was looking forward to seeing a mock up of a double decker built in someone's garage.

 

[sprinterguy]

Wouldnt you have to rebuild every single bridge in the uk where a double decker train will run? Time and money we don't have. Sorry to burst your bubble in a way OP

Unless Traindesign has come up with a design for double deck stock that will fit within the existing British loading gauge. It didn’t work very well the last time that it was tried though.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

The subject is discussed at length in a Network Rail document. The conclusion was that it would be difficult though not impossible. Clearances would need to allow 26 metre vehicles. There are always problems with station dwell times.

 

[thelem]

My point was just that DfT commissioned a report that came down against even a new design of UK double deckers (on existing infrastructure). Was that report totally wrong then?

Their report could only look at the existing designs and ideas. There is always the chance that the OP has come up with something truely revolutionary that bypasses the problems the DfT found.

Maybe they are happy to restrict the trains to lines suitable for containerised freight, so have more space? Maybe they've found some way of reducing the size of the bogies?

I agree it seems unlikely, but I'm interested to see what they have come up with, if/when they eventually release their designs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are always problems with station dwell times.

Those can be solved with more doors with large vestibules (a la RER in Paris), although doing so does eat in to the benefit of having the two decks in the first place.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

Their report could only look at the existing designs and ideas. There is always the chance that the OP has come up with something truely revolutionary that bypasses the problems the DfT found.

Maybe they are happy to restrict the trains to lines suitable for containerised freight, so have more space? Maybe they've found some way of reducing the size of the bogies?

I agree it seems unlikely, but I'm interested to see what they have come up with, if/when they eventually release their designs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Those can be solved with more doors with large vestibules (a la RER in Paris), although doing so does eat in to the benefit of having the two decks in the first place.

A limiting factor referred to was that DD trains should be 26 metres long. Having spent the money to fit the 26 metre IEP on the system, this could open the way for DD trains.

 

[Traindesign]

Two years later and you're still no closer to having a mock-up? Or indeed being able to disclose any details/designs in public which I would think would come long before a mock-up? And someone who claims to be respected in the industry asking for help from a public forum.

Forgive me if I remain rather skeptical.

Firstly,
If you had conceived this design would you make it public before it was protected? Secondly we are two years down the line now because of illness! Thirdly the reason there is no mock up is purely money, nobody is interested in investing as we are in the uk and a breed of accountants and not engineers,
I'm afraid it's people like you that I'm up against!!

 

[snail]

Thirdly the reason there is no mock up is purely money, nobody is interested in investing

If you won't give anyone even an outline of what you are proposing why are you surprised?

This sounds very similar to trampower - lots of spin, little action.

 

[Yew]

I think some of the Bulleid DD's issues could be fixed with modern day equipment, good airconditioning, maybe some big windows to try and make them seem more spacious, and remmeber these where compared to stock with doors in every compartment, so maybe with power doors in every compartment, (or maybe 3 double width power doors per carriage?)

Unfortuately I dont think and manufacturer would be willing to try and make a UK specific design to fit within our limited loading guages.

Maybe we should look at guage enhancements for HS1 and to paris, so we can run Euro shuttle sized Triple deckers

 

[RAGNARØKR]

I seem to recall seeing a picture of a double deck train in India or Ceylon which had ladders at each end of the carriages and open top decks with railings along the sides.

Since Indians were long in the habit of travelling on the roofs of the trains this was I suppose an improvement.

 

[HSTEd]

A limiting factor referred to was that DD trains should be 26 metres long. Having spent the money to fit the 26 metre IEP on the system, this could open the way for DD trains.

They dont have to be.
Our good friends at Talgo have produced this.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

Maybe we should look at guage enhancements for HS1 and to paris, so we can run Euro shuttle sized Triple deckers

For the Knight trains.

 

[starrymarkb]

They dont have to be.
Our good friends at Talgo have produced this.

Don't the Spanish have a bit more width then us to fit corridors between the wheel sets as their network is Broad Gauge...

 

[HSTEd]

Don't the Spanish have a bit more width then us to fit corridors between the wheel sets as their network is Broad Gauge...

Nope, since the Talgo technology complete with gangways between the wheels is used on the Talgo stock that operates on standard gauge only and gauge changing services.

 

[VP185]

Double-deck trains will never happen in the UK. Our government is too short sighted and not willing to invest in the railways

The CrossRail tunnels are designed for single decked trains thus limiting capacity from the outset.
GWML electrification. NR are having to raise structures to fit the OHLE, they lifted them enough just to get the wires under, surely they could have raised them to enable double-deck trains to run in the future.
I think they've really missed the boat with the GWML upgrade. The opportunity to solve overcrowding missed. Instead, we're replacing diesel with electric with no substantial increase in capacity.

 

[MCR247]

I still the the crosstalk tunnels should have been built to all DDs in the future

 

[Class86Fan]

First off:
1. The UK OHLE catenary is small for double decker trains.
2. There are bridges that may be too small.

 

[MCR247]

Yeah but just to future proof it

 

[RichmondCommu]

If it wasn't for the Connaught tunnel double deck trains on Crossrail would have been a good place to start, especially as the trains are likely to spend their entire lives on the same route.