Tyne and Wear Metro extensions

[HST43257]

So there’s a fair few extensions that could happen on the Tyne and Wear Metro. If the one along the Leamside route to Washington happens, where would it go once through Newcastle?

 

[DustyBin]

So there’s a fair few extensions that could happen on the Tyne and Wear Metro. If the one along the Leamside route to Washington happens, where would it go once through Newcastle?

Around the coast loop or to the airport I would have thought, unless you mean could a further extension be built?

 

[HST43257]

Around the coast loop or to the airport I would have thought, unless you mean could a further extension be built?

Open to all suggestions. I was thinking that it could perhaps be a coast express service, running limited stop from South Gosforth to Monkseaton or wherever there is/was a bay on the northern part of the circular route, with the yellow line being simplified to being South Shields to Monkseaton (slow). There’d also be a St James to North Shields slow service, meaning the service from Washington that went fast to Monkseaton can then run limited stop to St James. If not, a new branch would be an exciting new venture for the Washington service.

 

[EastisECML]

I think the only area that could justify a new metro route would be the West end of Newcastle, but I'm not sure if a suburb could justify tunnelling that is usually only done in city centres. It's bad enough that the current east-west Newcastle tunnel only gets 5 tph.

The Leamside line surely can't be suitable for metro operation? There are such unsuitable distances between potential stops that a faster heavy rail service would be better for. I don't think Cobalt and Silverlink would provide the numbers needed for those places to be served either.

Maybe a branch from Benton to Quorum, Killingworth, Dudley and Cramlington alongside the ECML would be justified. But that might put too many metros on the core line from South Gosforth to Pelaw with no chance of grade separation at either end. Plus the ECML really should be providing local services for those places and a much faster link to Newcastle.

Maybe if the St James tunnel could be extended after a sharp turn under St James boulevard to link up with the Scotswood branch and then cross the Tyne with the line splitting to reach the Metrocentre and Dunston & Team Valley that could work. The Metrocentre link could possibly even be extended to Blaydon or even back across the Tyne to some of those estates outside of the A1 which still appear to have intact former railway alignments.

Also, if the airport station was on a slightly different alignment, a short extension to Ponteland would have been pretty easy.

 

[ainsworth74]

The Leamside line surely can't be suitable for metro operation? There are such unsuitable distances between potential stops that a faster heavy rail service would be better for.

I believe whenever the Leamside line is brought up in reference to Metro extensions it's only ever been to get as far as Washington. Beyond that the population falls of a cliff and the distances get quite long.

 

[DustyBin]

I think the only area that could justify a new metro route would be the West end of Newcastle, but I'm not sure if a suburb could justify tunnelling that is usually only done in city centres. It's bad enough that the current east-west Newcastle tunnel only gets 5 tph.

The Leamside line surely can't be suitable for metro operation? There are such unsuitable distances between potential stops that a faster heavy rail service would be better for. I don't think Cobalt and Silverlink would provide the numbers needed for those places to be served either.

Maybe a branch from Benton to Quorum, Killingworth, Dudley and Cramlington alongside the ECML would be justified. But that might put too many metros on the core line from South Gosforth to Pelaw with no chance of grade separation at either end. Plus the ECML really should be providing local services for those places and a much faster link to Newcastle.

Maybe if the St James tunnel could be extended after a sharp turn under St James boulevard to link up with the Scotswood branch and then cross the Tyne with the line splitting to reach the Metrocentre and Dunston & Team Valley that could work. The Metrocentre link could possibly even be extended to Blaydon or even back across the Tyne to some of those estates outside of the A1 which still appear to have intact former railway alignments.

Also, if the airport station was on a slightly different alignment, a short extension to Ponteland would have been pretty easy.

Team Valley is the one I’d most like to see, then the Metrocentre. They’re both large economic hubs with no or poor rail links respectively. The West End would be good but I think the infrastructure requirements will always be prohibitive.

Beyond those I’m not sure what else is required; some places (such as Leamside as you’ve pointed out) are better served by heavy rail so I’d like to see some further lines and stations reopened where possible.

 

[EastisECML]

I believe whenever the Leamside line is brought up in reference to Metro extensions it's only ever been to get as far as Washington. Beyond that the population falls of a cliff and the distances get quite long.

A small part of Washington doesn't seem worthwhile for that distance as well as the capacity demands on the central core and creating a three way flat crossing at Pelaw.

 

[ainsworth74]

The West End would be good but I think the infrastructure requirements will always be prohibitive.

Yes that's the one that always appeals to me but as you say it's going to be prohibitive. You can't do anything really on the surface down by the river as the old alignment is basically built upon not very far from beyond the end of the sidings that are down there. Plus you'd either end up in the mainline Newcastle station or have to do some very fancy tunnelling under the station to get the new line to join the existing infrastructure. Going west from St James would probably be possible and could mean putting stations in the centre of the population out there rather than down by the river but you're just going to be underground basically all the way with the costs that brings with it!

I'd love to see it though...

A small part of Washington doesn't seem worthwhile for that distance as well as the capacity demands on the central core and creating a three way flat crossing at Pelaw.

Which is probably why it's never really got much further than "wouldn't it be nice" and grand statements of intent from various politicians looking to get some media coverage

 

[EastisECML]

Team Valley is the one I’d most like to see, then the Metrocentre. They’re both large economic hubs with no or poor rail links respectively. The West End would be good but I think the infrastructure requirements will always be prohibitive.

Beyond those I’m not sure what else is required; some places (such as Leamside as you’ve pointed out) are better served by heavy rail so I’d like to see some further lines and stations reopened where possible.

I think expanding heavy rail operations is the answer to what we need to happen next in this region. Blyth & Tyne seems to be on the way to happening, beyond that Newcastle to Middlesbrough services seem to have been neglected. I'd love to see a new direct line from Hartlepool to Middlesbrough from the East. I believe that would be the most direct route from Newcastle to Middlesbrough. Then we need to figure out how to serve Chester-le-Street.

 

[geordieblue]

The North East Transport Plan envisages, first, a direct coast to Airport service, then an extension on the Leamside as far as the International Advanced Manufacturing Park (which demonstrates that the Leamside will likely be approached from the north and Pelaw; where you then terminate the trains is a different question). Extensions to Cobalt and Silverlink, and the completion of the Leamside loop, are expected to come in the 2030s (I think Tyne Dock-East Boldon may have been mentioned as well?). That's all straight from the horse's mouth: https://www.transportnortheast.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Full-Transport-Plan.pdf

 

[DustyBin]

The North East Transport Plan envisages, first, a direct coast to Airport service

They could do that now in theory. The issue is you need more trains to run it otherwise you’d have to cut services through the core which wouldn’t go down very well.

 

[geordieblue]

They could do that now in theory. The issue is you need more trains to run it otherwise you’d have to cut services through the core which wouldn’t go down very well.

They need to expand the depot avoiding line at South Gosforth first (which will likely be done when the depot is rebuilt, or at least with passive provision).

 

[EastisECML]

Is there any need for such a Newcastle avoiding service? I wonder if they could achieve similar levels of connectivity by rebuilding South Gosforth station into a single island platform for cross platform interchange?

 

[geordieblue]

Is there any need for such a Newcastle avoiding service? I wonder if they could achieve similar levels of connectivity by rebuilding South Gosforth station into a single island platform for cross platform interchange?

I don't imagine the service would be 6tph, like the rest of the network, but clearly Nexus feel it would be a useful addition, I think especially for passengers from SE Northumberland. It'd also be significantly cheaper than rebuilding South Gosforth (though the extra trains required might offset that).

 

[DustyBin]

They need to expand the depot avoiding line at South Gosforth first (which will likely be done when the depot is rebuilt, or at least with passive provision).

Fair enough, I can’t say I’m in the know when it comes to the depot avoiding line to be honest, I just know one exists. Is it just a single track?

I don't imagine the service would be 6tph, like the rest of the network, but clearly Nexus feel it would be a useful addition, I think especially for passengers from SE Northumberland. It'd also be significantly cheaper than rebuilding South Gosforth (though the extra trains required might offset that).

I can see their thinking, it would be beneficial although I’m not sure how many people would go out of their way to use the direct service when they’re already used to changing at South Gosforth (which is a pain admittedly). Having said that, once heavy rail services to Ashington are running it would be much more desirable to have a single change at Northumberland Park for the airport as having to change twice may well be a deal breaker for many people.

 

[geordieblue]

Fair enough, I can’t say I’m in the know when it comes to the depot avoiding line to be honest, I just know one exists. Is it just a single track?

Yep, should have elaborated on my point - it's just a single track and probably isn't in great condition either. I don't think Nexus would want to introduce a section of single track that would have the potential to delay services across the network. However, as you say, I think the 'deal breaker' idea is very much the impetus behind the project.

 

[EastisECML]

I don't imagine the service would be 6tph, like the rest of the network, but clearly Nexus feel it would be a useful addition, I think especially for passengers from SE Northumberland. It'd also be significantly cheaper than rebuilding South Gosforth (though the extra trains required might offset that).

It just seems like an effort to use spare capacity on the branches. From what I'm aware of, the airport's connectivity problems are that the metro doesn't run early enough for its peak rush in the early morning. So maybe it would be better if they focused on running trains earlier in the morning?

I wonder if the airport still has the desire for heavy rail services via a reinstated left Benton curve? Which I believe they own the land for.

 

[DustyBin]

It just seems like an effort to use spare capacity on the branches. From what I'm aware of, the airport's connectivity problems are that the metro doesn't run early enough for its peak rush in the early morning. So maybe it would be better if they focused on running trains earlier in the morning?

I wonder if the airport still has the desire for heavy rail services via a reinstated left Benton curve? Which I believe they own the land for.

There’s a bit of work to be done in terms of serving the airport I think. I’m not sure how many people actually use the Metro to get there, there is probably data available though I imagine. As you say, not running ahead of the airport’s morning peak is an issue.

I wasn’t even aware of the latter to be honest. I did previously speculate that heavy rail could share the line from Northumberland Park once the line to Ashington is reopened, whether that’s practical though is another matter (I’m thinking in terms of signalling etc.).

Further speculation: is there any scope to run freight from the airport?