TV Alert - Dispatches on Channel 4 ''Train Journeys from Hell"

[tbtc]

The consequences of using the wrong lane on a motorway do not include being PFed by a gorilla employed by FCC or a third party security firm. It is this well-publicised and very real fear of initimidation that helps to make the railways off-putting to normals

End up in the wrong lane of a motorway and you might end up with a truck approaching rapidly. There is intimidation on the motorways too, and not the kind that you can reason with (I'm sorry you feel the need to describe railway professionals as "gorillas" though).

Normals use the railway all the time, it's true, but how many of them feel they are getting value for money? Or how many are travelling on the cheapest fare they could have done? There is a niggling suspicion out there that fares are too high and it doesn't help the railways' case when it is exposed (often by enthusiasts) that it is often (usually?) possible to pay less

In a lot of cases if people weren't getting value for money they wouldn't travel. Or they'd drive, use a coach etc.

The notion that high passenger numbers somehow implies that the railways are popular, or consistently easy to use is as facile as it is wrong

Well, if things were as negative as you suggested here...

The unpalatable fact is that the railways are confusing and difficult for normals to use, and that something that potentially highlights this may be unpleasant, but not necessarily unbalanced.

...then I'm surprised so many people (in increasing numbers) are using the confusing and difficult railway. Some people find the railways confusing and difficult, but then some people will find Tesco "confusing and difficult to use". The way you portray it suggests only enthusiasts can cope with the art of buying a ticket and boarding a train.

People are using railways out of necessity and this does not imply that they are happy about high fares, overcrowding etc, merely that they are a captive audience. Doubtless some are happy with the service, but drawing conclusions on this based on passenger numbers is just plain wrong

Please show me where I said people are happy with crowding and fare levels. Of course people want cheaper services and more seats. Ask anyone about any product/ good/ service and they'll not say "I am paying too little"...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The vast, vast, vast majority of people that use the rail network in this country do so every day with little or no confusion, very little disruption- but with a bit of overcrowding perhaps.

Precisely. Things could be better, but if they were half as bad as some people seem to think then I'd worry...

 

[Clip]

There was an advert for it with him phoning a "helpline" asking for a train from Manchester Victoria to Harrogate. If you're going to let the details be that sloppy on the short clip (anyone heading towards Harrogate would surely use Piccadilly), then I'm not expecting great things. Would like to be wrong, of course...

So people are not allowed to ask this sort of question then? Christ almighty if this is your attitude to a normal passenger then god help the lot of them.

 

[EM2]

Well imagine you don't usually get the train and live in north Manchester and get a phone call to say your relative living in Harrogate is very sick but you can't drive for whatever reason so have to get the train to see them. You wouldn't know to use Piccadilly for the fastest journey.

No, I'd ring National Rail Enquiries (as I used to in the days before the Internet), and say 'Can you tell me the best route to go from Manchester to Harrogate?'
I wouldn't specify a Manchester station because as someone who doesn't usually get the train, I wouldn't try and guess which station I'd need, in the same way that I wouldn't ask to go from Waterloo to Bedford, I'd ask for London to Bedford.

 

[Clip]

No, I'd ring National Rail Enquiries (as I used to in the days before the Internet), and say 'Can you tell me the best route to go from Manchester to Harrogate?'
I wouldn't specify a Manchester station because as someone who doesn't usually get the train, I wouldn't try and guess which station I'd need, in the same way that I wouldn't ask to go from Waterloo to Bedford, I'd ask for London to Bedford.

But what if you were already at the station and didnt see any trains on the departure screens and then rang them up to find out - of course normal people would ask it. Ive worked at many stations where people are in the wrong one looking for a train to somewhere we dont go..

Stop trying to make out all passengers have a knowledge of the railway - they dont.

 

[EM2]

But what if you were already at the station and didnt see any trains on the departure screens and then rang them up to find out - of course normal people would ask it. Ive worked at many stations where people are in the wrong one looking for a train to somewhere we dont go..

Stop trying to make out all passengers have a knowledge of the railway - they dont.

But that's my point. If you have *no* knowledge of the railway, you would surely call NRE *before* going to a station? Would you really get into Manchester, pick one of the stations at random and just hope you can get to Harrogate?

 

[4SRKT]

But that's my point. If you have *no* knowledge of the railway, you would surely call NRE *before* going to a station? Would you really get into Manchester, pick one of the stations at random and just hope you can get to Harrogate?

Maybe the last time he was in Manchester was during the 1980s when Victoria *was* the station for NTP services? He's old enough, and let's face it, even I can remember well the time when Victoria was the main station for destinations north of Manchester, and I'm probably half his age. Even now Victoria somehow seems more natural for this than Piccadilly.

 

[Clip]

But that's my point. If you have *no* knowledge of the railway, you would surely call NRE *before* going to a station? Would you really get into Manchester, pick one of the stations at random and just hope you can get to Harrogate?

Why not. ive had people turn up at kings cross thinking its the station to get to plymouth before.. Whats the difference? None. you just want something to pick on before you have even seen the programme.

Never ever think something cant or wont happen with passengers because it already would have happened.

 

[EM2]

Why not. ive had people turn up at kings cross thinking its the station to get to plymouth before.. Whats the difference? None. you just want something to pick on before you have even seen the programme.

Never ever think something cant or wont happen with passengers because it already would have happened.

Believe me I know all that. I work next door!
I'm not picking on anything, I'm simply pointing out to posters who have already used this as a bad example of how unbalanced the programme will be. But surely you'd agree that *most* people with no idea of railway geography would try and find out first?

 

[4SRKT]

Believe me I know all that. I work next door!
I'm not picking on anything, I'm simply pointing out to posters who have already used this as a bad example of how unbalanced the programme will be. But surely you'd agree that *most* people with no idea of railway geography would try and find out first?

It's possible that someone would not know there was more than one station in a town they were unfamiliar with. Not likely in London, but more so in Manchester.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Although I would say the vast majority of passengers tend to be able to use the railway network without any real problems there will always be a minority of passengers who will find it odd/difficult/confusing etc.

I have tended to find since working for the railways that the most common querys will be simple in nature. Examples include travelling Reading to Bournemouth: 'what platform/time does the train leave from Basingstoke'.

It would be silly to assume that everyone travelling knows exactly what they are doing/what they want/where they change etc.

However the same can be said for almost any service industry. There have been times when I have been to Tesco's and needed help finding something or gone to those damned annoying self-service checkouts and it's gone belly-up (I swear I am going to go mad if I hear another one of those things bleat out 'unidentified item in bagging area' etc). I have been to HMV and not been able to find a particular CD/DVD. I have been to restauraunts not knowing what to choose and have asked for the waiter/waitress opinion.

The railways are not unique in this sense. There is possibly not a single place within the service industry where people haven't asked simple/complex questions. This is one of the reasons why staff exist in such environments. It does however seem to be the case that the railways are often singled out for being horribly bad which I think is unfair. The railways are not perfect. There is always going to be a horror story here and there. But I challenge anyone to find any company with a 100% customer satisfaction rating.

If they want to investigate anyone for being horribly bad at customer service may I suggest the makers of this programme take a look at PC World? I have yet to have a good experience there.

 

[stut]

Also, remember that it's Dispatches, a programme that always takes a very dialectic approach - it is deliberately sensationalist and one-sided, and has managed to be very successful in exposing a number of issues - most memorably, for me, the whole MMR/Autism nonsense.

 

[jon0844]

Why not. ive had people turn up at kings cross thinking its the station to get to plymouth before.. Whats the difference? None. you just want something to pick on before you have even seen the programme.

I think we need to find a balance though, given that I am sure most people who contacted the producers wanting to rant about the state of their trains, timetable issues and so on - general issues for most passengers.

Of course, the producers wanted to be a bit more mainstream and would have focussed on more random issues, including ones they could sensationalise for TV.

Yes, someone may turn up at the wrong station and assume they can get a train to anywhere, but is that the fault of the railway? Of course not.

I am sure regular commuters won't gain anything from it, while those who rarely travel will be scared off. The industry will (if given a chance) churn out standard responses and everyone will have forgotten about it the day after.

Okay, I'll wait until I see it - but I've watched some episodes of Dispatches that have been shocking, like the one that tried to character assassinate Boris Johnson with no balance whatsoever.

Watchdog makes the same mistakes too. It can be a programme that really does fight for the consumer, yet all too often in order to make good television they run with stories where from the outset you think 'that person is an idiot, what did they expect?'. It defeats the whole object of the programme and turns it into general entertainment.

 

[Clip]

Believe me I know all that. I work next door!
I'm not picking on anything, I'm simply pointing out to posters who have already used this as a bad example of how unbalanced the programme will be. But surely you'd agree that *most* people with no idea of railway geography would try and find out first?

They could have a print out with the station on it and still go to the wrong place.

And Thameslink too - 2 different stations but people getting off the tube would normally come up to mainline rather then follow the signs and ask there two. Same situation and and still happens regularly even though the station has moved

 

[jon0844]

The signage at King's Cross St Pancras is pretty damn good. In fact, having travelled around the world, I still think that when it comes to the signs for the tube (and buses) we must be fairly near the top.

The information is there, but people will still get confused. Of course they will. When I was in Barcelona the first time and needing to use the subway, which is a dead easy system, I still had to take extra care to find my way around at the start - but that's because I'm in another country and unfamiliar with it.

Would I complain about their system? Absolutely not and after a few days I felt like I was a local.

There are plenty of things that aren't particularly complicated that we need help on just because it's new to us - but isn't really complicated. Quite often once you're told something you have a facepalm moment when you realise you missed a sign or were already where you needed to be.

The real things to complain about probably won't even get a mention as it won't make good TV. We'll see them finding the services that are crush loaded, obviously, and photos no doubt of dirty trains (caused by dirty passengers) and there will be outrage - but you mark my words, it will be a show forgotten about in no time.

 

[northwichcat]

No, I'd ring National Rail Enquiries (as I used to in the days before the Internet), and say 'Can you tell me the best route to go from Manchester to Harrogate?'
I wouldn't specify a Manchester station because as someone who doesn't usually get the train, I wouldn't try and guess which station I'd need, in the same way that I wouldn't ask to go from Waterloo to Bedford, I'd ask for London to Bedford.

I think too much fuss is being made of Victoria being the wrong station to travel to Harrogate from. None of Victoria, Piccadilly and Oxford Road offer direct Harrogate trains and from each of those 3 stations it is possible to reach Harrogate with one change. The difference is the Victoria-Leeds trains are slower with more stops than the TransPennine Express services.

You're also assuming the local station for the passenger is Victoria. What if it's Salford Central? From there it's pretty obvious you need to go in the Manchester direction to reach Harrogate and once you do that you arrive at Victoria. Victoria and Salford Central are too close for the guard to get to everyone on the train.

 

[Clip]

I think we need to find a balance though, given that I am sure most people who contacted the producers wanting to rant about the state of their trains, timetable issues and so on - general issues for most passengers.

Of course, the producers wanted to be a bit more mainstream and would have focussed on more random issues, including ones they could sensationalise for TV.

Yes, someone may turn up at the wrong station and assume they can get a train to anywhere, but is that the fault of the railway? Of course not.

I am sure regular commuters won't gain anything from it, while those who rarely travel will be scared off. The industry will (if given a chance) churn out standard responses and everyone will have forgotten about it the day after.

Okay, I'll wait until I see it - but I've watched some episodes of Dispatches that have been shocking, like the one that tried to character assassinate Boris Johnson with no balance whatsoever.

Watchdog makes the same mistakes too. It can be a programme that really does fight for the consumer, yet all too often in order to make good television they run with stories where from the outset you think 'that person is an idiot, what did they expect?'. It defeats the whole object of the programme and turns it into general entertainment.

The problem is is that people have picked up on him making a call from one station about getting a train there and saying that this is not representative at all.. Basically saying its impossible for anyone to do that - which is plainly untrue.

The signage at King's Cross St Pancras is pretty damn good. In fact, having travelled around the world, I still think that when it comes to the signs for the tube (and buses) we must be fairly near the top.

Yes, it is but it still happens and was even worse when it was over the road.

 

[junglejames]

Seems to be a bit of a fight here between those that think railways are complicated, and those that dont think it is. Yes, Britains railways in places are too complicated. Fares are a perfect example. But apart from that, they are usually fairly easy to use. If you want confusing railways for a beginner, try the Dutch railways. Unable to use British cards to buy tickets from machines, and only accepting coins i think it is. Guards onboard just telling you to get off at next stop, even though you know you'll have the same problem, and even though you have the cash to pay him. Trains splitting enroute with nothing obvious saying this on the screens, and then ending up in totally the wrong place.
Anyway, back to our railways. Yes, they can be confusing, and yes they can be intimidating. Our thumper man was right when he said people can be left in intimidating situations if they end up on the wrong train.
I hate the fact our fares are far too complicated (how many cheap day returns are there from Ashford Int to London on the classic lines? At least 2 i think. Whats the difference between them? As far as i can tell, nothing but the fare. Even if there was a difference, what is the point in it? None at all. Ive seen a late night train from St Pancras back to Ashford that you can only use one ticket on apparently, and its a single ticket. A cheapish one at that. More expensive tickets apparently arent valid, and returns arent valid on it, so no returning from London on that train. Of course, it was probably the website being stupid, but it does make things look too complicated.
Fares are too expensive. I suspect very few people are happy with the prices.
The announcements on long distance services threatening you with a £200 fare if your on the wrong train. Thats not necessary.
So yes, our railways can be too complicated, esp fares, and they can be intimidating to some people, and they are expensive. The railways are also not really run with the passenger in mind anymore. Privatisation has helped put pay to this.
But, on the whole, things go smoothly, and travelling by train is usually pretty easy, once you actually have your ticket!!
Some normals will disagree and say its too difficult, but often this is because of one bad experience.
I dont expect everybody to have the knowledge that enthusiasts have, and to get around with the ease that they do, but with a look at timetables, and searching the internet, its usually pretty easy to find how you need to get somewhere.

As said, the main problem is fares, and as thats usually the first thing people come across, this makes the railways look more complicated than they are. One thing that does complicate these, is privatisation, and having all these different companies. Having tickets that say 'VT only' or 'LM only' etc etc. Its often not a problem, but can sometimes make things a little bit more confusing.
Fares need to be made far less complicated, and companies need to be more honest over what passengers are buying. Esp sites like Thetrainline. If it was me, id crack down very heavily on thetrainline. Infact, id probably stop it selling tickets.

So, on the whole, railways are good, but there definitely need to be big improvements over how complicated and intimidating they can be.

 

[jon0844]

While a lot of aspects with ticketing ARE confusing and could be (no should be) simplified further, I think most people can accept restrictions - even if they don't agree with them. Buy a cheap advance ticket, whether for a train, coach or airline and you should know that it has VERY tight restrictions. Again, moan away - but don't be surprised. That's why all companies do cheap tickets, which is not exclusive to the railway (except, unlike a plane and maybe a coach, people can actually get on the wrong train when the other modes of transport would 'catch' you before you landed yourself with a brand new open ticket for stupid money).

I think that even if we don't have standardised signs throughout the entire railway network, it is pretty easy to get around and there are numerous ways of getting information. In our iPhone-generation, people can get an app to get train info (running info, planning or pricing) so people are more prepared than they might otherwise be. In fact, it's VERY easy to get information on even the dumbest of mobile phones these days - so you can check live running info and have SMSes, Tweets and emails to warn you of problems. Don't people know to check arrivals and departures when flying? On the same basis, maybe some people should think to check before going by train too. You don't have to, but sometimes it pays to help yourself and not rely on everyone else.

When it comes to the London underground system, and London buses, I think we've got the best system - from maps to posters and information signs. It's dead easy to find out what bus you need to take anywhere now, and the onboard CIS is excellent (even if we were late in the day to get it - many other Europeans enjoyed such technology years ago) but go out of London and it's a nightmare. What bus stop, what bus, how do you know you're at the right stop at your destination when you don't know the area? What about changes of bus? Good luck!

I think the railway network is pretty good, and I also think it's pretty reliable. In any given year, I'm probably disrupted about 10-15 times at most. And, much as people like to moan, I think many people (assuming they're not affected day after day, and most aren't) actually find that some disruption actually livens up their otherwise dull day - the whole Dunkirk Spirit situation that actually makes people communicate with each other.

 

[Ivo]

Dispatches and its ITV/BBC "equivalents" are, for the most part, a waste of time. Only Tonight on ITV ever feels worthwhile, and no matter what people say the Panorama thing into the World Cup bid did hurt it. These shows are, for the most part, nothing more than a means for the publically-owned stations to criticise everyday life and operations privatised by Thatcher/Major, while the ITV version laughs at them and shows them how to do it fairly (and with a good presenter I might add). I shan't be watching this.

Two more points:

(1) Being autistic, and having never intentionall watched Dispatches because of its sensationalist take on things, I would be keen to learn what exactly stut means by "the MMR/Autism nonsense". Could they elaborate please?

(2) Regarding the list of railway presenters, what of Ian Hislop?

 

[stut]

(1) Being autistic, and having never intentionall watched Dispatches because of its sensationalist take on things, I would be keen to learn what exactly stut means by "the MMR/Autism nonsense". Could they elaborate please?

No problem.

It relates to the claims made by the media based on research by Andrew Wakefield, that claimed that there was a link between the MMR vaccine and autism, later found to be based on, frankly, a lot of nonsense.

A summary of the Dispatches information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispatches_(TV_series)#MMR:_What_they_didn.27t_tell_you

And an excellent write-up of the whole sorry episode by Ben Goldacre:

http://www.badscience.net/2008/08/the-medias-mmr-hoax/

 

[tbtc]

While a lot of aspects with ticketing ARE confusing and could be (no should be) simplified further, I think most people can accept restrictions - even if they don't agree with them. Buy a cheap advance ticket, whether for a train, coach or airline and you should know that it has VERY tight restrictions. Again, moan away - but don't be surprised. That's why all companies do cheap tickets, which is not exclusive to the railway (except, unlike a plane and maybe a coach, people can actually get on the wrong train when the other modes of transport would 'catch' you before you landed yourself with a brand new open ticket for stupid money).

I think that even if we don't have standardised signs throughout the entire railway network, it is pretty easy to get around and there are numerous ways of getting information. In our iPhone-generation, people can get an app to get train info (running info, planning or pricing) so people are more prepared than they might otherwise be. In fact, it's VERY easy to get information on even the dumbest of mobile phones these days - so you can check live running info and have SMSes, Tweets and emails to warn you of problems. Don't people know to check arrivals and departures when flying? On the same basis, maybe some people should think to check before going by train too. You don't have to, but sometimes it pays to help yourself and not rely on everyone else.

When it comes to the London underground system, and London buses, I think we've got the best system - from maps to posters and information signs. It's dead easy to find out what bus you need to take anywhere now, and the onboard CIS is excellent (even if we were late in the day to get it - many other Europeans enjoyed such technology years ago) but go out of London and it's a nightmare. What bus stop, what bus, how do you know you're at the right stop at your destination when you don't know the area? What about changes of bus? Good luck!

I think the railway network is pretty good, and I also think it's pretty reliable. In any given year, I'm probably disrupted about 10-15 times at most. And, much as people like to moan, I think many people (assuming they're not affected day after day, and most aren't) actually find that some disruption actually livens up their otherwise dull day - the whole Dunkirk Spirit situation that actually makes people communicate with each other.

I agree with that.

If I wanted to find out how to get to/from Harrogate I could go to any number of websites and quickly find out how to get there from my local station, specify direct trains (if appropriate), specify longer "minimum" changes at intermediate stations (if I were frail/ had luggage etc), I could reserve a seat (on services with reservations), I could get the tickets posted First Class to my house for free. The website will work out times from hundreds of stations, involving thousands of trains within seconds, no "expert" knowledge will be required on my part. There'll be the choice of fares on the website, so I have a few options.

If I have no web access I can phone a "local rate" phoneline where someone will do the above for me.

At bigger stations there will be tannoy announcements/ information screens. On the trains there will be regular announcements (and information screens on modern units).

To me, that's as user friendly as the railways have ever been. That doesn't sound like the railways are confusing.

The one area where the "railways are too complicated and difficult for normal people to use" crowd have a point is with tickets. There are some places where you need a Yorkie-esque knowledge to save money (e.g. splitting your fare at Cheltenham, and taking a longer route via Hartlepool on a GC-only ticket would probably save you money between Bristol and Newcastle). Those are unnecessary complications which do the railways no favours.

However, for most ticket options, I think the options are easy enough to understand. Most people are sensible enough to appreciate that an off-peak gym membership doesn't mean they can turn up at busy times and expect use of the facilities. They are intelligent enough to understand that booking a restaurant table for six o'clock doesn't mean you may arrive at nine o'clock. People are smart (despite the patronising assertions of some), they can understand choice. They deal with a hundred different mobile phone tarrifs, they chose which school to send their kids to, which "tarrif" to purchase electricity, which brand of beans to purchase... they know that the cheaper options usually come with "strings" attached. So the idea that growns ups can't comprehend the idea that an off peak ticket won't let them use the train at peak times (etc) seems exaggerated.

There's always the suspicion that you could have got a cheaper deal, but the same is true of car insurance/ holidays/ beans...

 

[Greenback]

The idea that 'normals' find the railway compllicated and difficult to use is a bit arrogant really. It smacks of 'I;m a rail enthusiast and I undertsand timetable sand othe rpeople don't'. This may be true of a minority of people, but in general large numbers of people do manage to use trains every week.

The TV programme is not balanced and does not intend to be. It tends to have an agenda, and pursues that rather than asking real questions. I once saw a programme attacking the Royal Mail, which was ludicrously one sided and had no understanding of the real issues that face the organisation.

What would b balance dis if the programme investigated how easy it is to make a set of random journeys, from planning through ticket purchase to journey. Maybe it will do that, but I doubt it.

 

[4SRKT]

The idea that 'normals' find the railway compllicated and difficult to use is a bit arrogant really. It smacks of 'I;m a rail enthusiast and I undertsand timetable sand othe rpeople don't'. This may be true of a minority of people, but in general large numbers of people do manage to use trains every week.

The TV programme is not balanced and does not intend to be. It tends to have an agenda, and pursues that rather than asking real questions. I once saw a programme attacking the Royal Mail, which was ludicrously one sided and had no understanding of the real issues that face the organisation.

What would b balance dis if the programme investigated how easy it is to make a set of random journeys, from planning through ticket purchase to journey. Maybe it will do that, but I doubt it.

This isn't what I meant at all. I'm talking about complex and confusing ticketing arrangements, not buying a single from Llanelli to Swansea or whatever, which is clearly easy enough. Where I work nobody books a train ticket on company business without consulting me first, and you can see people's eyes glaze over when I start to explain whatever byzantine solution I have found to paying (for example) £184 or whatever for a return from Bradford to Bristol. This is the sort of chaotic 'system' that is offputting and what is *really* arrogant is saying that this isn't confusing, and that people should just get on with it. What makes it worse is media stories of inflexibility by railway staff enforcing 'rules' that while legal make no sense to lay people (or indeed to reasonable people of any persuasion). Using the example of people making the same journey day in day out to 'prove' that the railways are easy to use just won't cut it.

 

[Greenback]

That is fair enough, and that is well worth investigating. But I get the feeling from the trailer I saw that this will not be what the programme is about.

I would welcome a programme that looks at the whole journey experience, including the fares system, split tickets, penalty fares, TVM's, chances of getting a seat, and so on. However, I predict that the subject matte rwill largely be the old chestnuts of late trains, dirty trains, the state of the stations and quality of the sandwiches.

Personally, I would like to see a number of independently minded non celebrities trying out different journeys across the UK and seeing how they get on, from scratch.

 

[4SRKT]

That is fair enough, and that is well worth investigating. But I get the feeling from the trailer I saw that this will not be what the programme is about.

I would welcome a programme that looks at the whole journey experience, including the fares system, split tickets, penalty fares, TVM's, chances of getting a seat, and so on. However, I predict that the subject matte rwill largely be the old chestnuts of late trains, dirty trains, the state of the stations and quality of the sandwiches.

Personally, I would like to see a number of independently minded non celebrities trying out different journeys across the UK and seeing how they get on, from scratch.

I agree that we have moved somewhat away from the original topic of the programme itself. I still advocate waiting and seeing what it will be like rather than prejudging it. Maybe everyone's right about it, but let's find out for sure by watching it.

 

[jon0844]

I doubt it will show the bizarre nature of ticketing, but at the same time - how do most people book all of these cheap flights that are constantly compared against the railway?

Go to a travel agent - not likely. In fact, does Ryanair even work via travel agents anymore?
Phone up and book - and pay a lot more?

No; I bet most people now book cheap flights on the Internet either directly with an airline (e.g. Ryanair or easyjet) or via a comparison site like Skyscanner.

As such, I am sure that people could quite easily use a website to find the best prices and information. Don't know the website.. Well, Google for 'Railway information' gives National Rail as the top link. 'Train Times' - National Rail (trainline.com not far below). 'Train Tickets' - trainline.com top link (sponsored). Pretty easy really.

Much as I dislike The Trainline for being more expensive (with the booking fee), if people don't realise they can use other sites - including those for a TOC that might not even run trains in their areas (I favour East Coast myself) then they can use that site and see prices in a similar way as booking a low cost flight - and see that if they pay more, they can get a nice flexible ticket.

It's at this point people can decide to proceed or think 'sod that' and take the car, fly, take a coach, walk, cycle or stay at home. People CAN make decisions for themselves still can't they?

By all means expose the unfair conditions and the tricks that can save loads of money (and explain a bit, in layman's terms, why split ticketing can be cheaper) but that's not what this is going to be about is it! Far too boring for TV, even if it might actually help educate people on how to be smarter when travelling by rail. Oh no, let's just put people off travelling by rail at all. Let's make them take the car and clog up the motorways!

I agree we should wait until the programme airs, but it's just going to show the most horrid examples of train travel isn't it? Packed trains are a given, along with voxpops from angry passengers that will say they never get a seat, how it's crazy they pay so much and have to stand etc etc. And, will the programme explain about the fact that the TOC can't just put on more trains and buy new rolling stock - as it's strictly controlled by the DfT and the franchise? Doubtful. Those EVIL fat cats running private operators just keep the money for themselves and put on short formed trains and deliberately cancel services to save more money.... BOO HISS!

 

[4SRKT]

Two more points:

(1) Being autistic, and having never intentionall watched Dispatches because of its sensationalist take on things, I would be keen to learn what exactly stut means by "the MMR/Autism nonsense". Could they elaborate please?

I would guess that stut (a long time acquaintance of mine from another, considerably less courteous part of the internet) is referring to the link raised a few years ago between the MMR triple vaccine and autism in later life, the consequence of which was a large drop in people giving their children the MMR jab with its associated public health risks.

 

[Greenback]

I agree we should wait until the programme airs, but it's just going to show the most horrid examples of train travel isn't it? Packed trains are a given, along with voxpops from angry passengers that will say they never get a seat, how it's crazy they pay so much and have to stand etc etc. And, will the programme explain about the fact that the TOC can't just put on more trains and buy new rolling stock - as it's strictly controlled by the DfT and the franchise? Doubtful. Those EVIL fat cats running private operators just keep the money for themselves and put on short formed trains and deliberately cancel services to save more money.... BOO HISS!

Yes it will show all of this. I hope I am wrong, but I'm not holding my breath....

 

[SS4]

I agree we should wait until the programme airs, but it's just going to show the most horrid examples of train travel isn't it? Packed trains are a given, along with voxpops from angry passengers that will say they never get a seat, how it's crazy they pay so much and have to stand etc etc. And, will the programme explain about the fact that the TOC can't just put on more trains and buy new rolling stock - as it's strictly controlled by the DfT and the franchise? Doubtful. Those EVIL fat cats running private operators just keep the money for themselves and put on short formed trains and deliberately cancel services to save more money.... BOO HISS!

You can see it coming a mile off. All of these shows are as "Fair and Balanced" as Fox. I would add to that and say that a lack of Sunday service, especially on LM, is due to the union fat cats wanting their cake and eat it.

By and large the general public know what they want and are intelligent enough to do pretty much everything short of splitting. "Simplicity" is being used by many as a synonym for lazy, whether that's a sign of our modern culture of wanting everything on a plate is a brand new topic. The fact remains that for those who are willing to do a bit of work and put in some effort get the better deals. On the railways this translates to advance fares and when taken to extremes the enthusiast's knowledge. I'm sure Yorkie for example didn't just have their knowledge falling into their brain like the proverbial cartoon light bulb.

But I digress, back on topic I hold no hope of this being balanced (defined as a weighted fraction according to the abundance of hard evidence and a bit of passenger testimony)

 

[Aictos]

Mark Williams

I quite agree, probably the best there is and he makes the programmes interesting to both rail fans and non rail fans.