TV Alert: BBC 2's Documentary "15 Billion Pound Railway"

[306024]

The third program was just as informative, and hopefully as others have suggested further series could run right up to the opening ceremony.

 

[harz99]

I wonder if closer to the line opening they'll do some programs about fitting out the tunnels and station and maybe even the rolling stock?

Hope so; something I'd like to see is a before/during/after comparison of the sites where shafts have been cut for excavation works etc. Finsbury Square for instance.

 

[Daniel Pyke]

Yep, you're right - got my figures the wrong way round!

Lets hope the Crossrail team haven't

 

[ModernRailways]

Really enjoying the series, the second and third episode seem to be a lot more engineering focused than people focused like the first episode.

The building of the new Canary Wharf station is amazing, although I am surprised they didn't go into any detail as to why it's pretty much completed with 4 years spare when other stations are just getting underway.

 

[AM9]

Really enjoying the series, the second and third episode seem to be a lot more engineering focused than people focused like the first episode.

The building of the new Canary Wharf station is amazing, although I am surprised they didn't go into any detail as to why it's pretty much completed with 4 years spare when other stations are just getting underway.

Probably because it isn't nearly finished. There's a lot of work to do including setting up the retail areas and the roof gardens. It is the largest Crossrail station in the project, so why make it the last thing to be completed?

 

[edwin_m]

Canary Wharf station was started before anything else, sometime in 2009 I think. The reason is probably to do with opening the shopping levels above the station as soon as possible, even though the station itself won't open until later. Remember also that Crossrail completion was deferred by a couple of years in 2010 in order to reduce construction costs.

 

[swcovas]

To build a new motorway in the UK typically costs £24m per mile (or £38m per km). The proposed M4 relief road in south Wales is 23km in length, which suggests a cost of about £900m. Once you add in the required junctions, feeder roads and the difficulties of constructing a motorway on terrain such as the Gwent Levels, a billion pounds is pretty much exactly what you'd expect it to cost.

The M4 connects the three largest conurbations in Wales (Swansea, Cardiff and Newport) with each other and with England, and is of vital importance to the Welsh economy. A new motorway is required because the existing M4 is narrow, meandering, not fit for purpose - for example, it does not have a hard shoulder for much of its length - and is extremely congested.

£1 bn is the ball park figure being quoted. However there are cheaper options available which have plenty of supporters but the WAG have come out in favour of the most expensive option ......in the face of considerable opposition it must be said. As for being "extremely" congested that is also debatable. At certain times of the day, yes, and in the case of an accident or breakdown. I dont intend to enter a debate on the subject and will leave it to others perhaps more knowledgeable than myself to do so if they wish but I do cringe at the cost.

 

[ModernRailways]

Probably because it isn't nearly finished. There's a lot of work to do including setting up the retail areas and the roof gardens. It is the largest Crossrail station in the project, so why make it the last thing to be completed?

But it is nearly finished. Station clutter is pretty much all that is left, along with trackwork. Most of the work now is on the upper levels for the shopping/restaurants and rooftop garden

 

[swt_passenger]

Canary Wharf station was started before anything else, sometime in 2009 I think. The reason is probably to do with opening the shopping levels above the station as soon as possible, even though the station itself won't open until later. Remember also that Crossrail completion was deferred by a couple of years in 2010 in order to reduce construction costs.

They also probably needed at least the lower levels completed so as to drive the TBMs into the box and restart at the other end, I'm assuming it would have been a lot more difficult to build down and open up existing tunnels if they were running under the dock bottom.

IIRC for any of the new (deep level) stations the two options were either to build the platform box (or larger diameter tunnels) either by digging or by mining then tunnel through them, or like at Paddington Low Level build the tunnels to normal size and then dig down round them and open them up.

 

[AM9]

But it is nearly finished. Station clutter is pretty much all that is left, along with trackwork. Most of the work now is on the upper levels for the shopping/restaurants and rooftop garden

If you insist that everything is completed just before opening of the whole line that means that you will need and enormous workforce and equipment access at great cost, also all the technical risk will be loaded towards the end of the programme. Not very clever project management!
You may have noticed that the teams are responsible for more than one station, e.g. those working on Liverpool St were also covering Whitechapel.
The crossrail project is running to timetable and within budget, (HS2 naysayers please note!).

 

[Andrewlong]

Thoroughly enjoying the documentary - the last 2 episodes with their emphasis on engineering I thought was better than the first one.

What is interesting the degree of cooperation between the public body Crossrail and the dozens of private sector suppliers who provide the tunnelling equipment, cranes, building materials etc.

This the face of modern day business. Yet there are some who would label these private companies are money grabbing, profit orientated scum and would prevent them having anything to do with running train services. We need private sector companies like this and the documentary has shown the value they bring to the project.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah the first one didnt impress, the second two have, though the ADHD jumping back and forth requiring repeated introductions makes it a bit hard to enjoy and weakens the amount of content that it can contain.

 

[rebmcr]

We need private sector companies like this and the documentary has shown the value they bring to the project.

Dragados' innovation for remodelling Bank station is another good example.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Thoroughly enjoying the documentary - the last 2 episodes with their emphasis on engineering I thought was better than the first one.

What is interesting the degree of cooperation between the public body Crossrail and the dozens of private sector suppliers who provide the tunnelling equipment, cranes, building materials etc.

This the face of modern day business. Yet there are some who would label these private companies are money grabbing, profit orientated scum and would prevent them having anything to do with running train services. We need private sector companies like this and the documentary has shown the value they bring to the project.

Indeed, and the success of Crossrail Ltd provides a good template for future large-scale infrastructure projects (read: HS2). If the public sector has the revenue risk then you have to ensure that the smartest minds are there as the private sector will do everything they can to increase profits (oddly enough). If the smartest minds on the project are in the private firms then you get the Edinburgh Trams fiasco.

 

[edwin_m]

Indeed, and the success of Crossrail Ltd provides a good template for future large-scale infrastructure projects (read: HS2). If the public sector has the revenue risk then you have to ensure that the smartest minds are there as the private sector will do everything they can to increase profits (oddly enough). If the smartest minds on the project are in the private firms then you get the Edinburgh Trams fiasco.

Yes they seem to have done most things right. Although you will probably find that even in the offices of Crossrail Ltd the employees are outnumbered by consultants. HS2 does also seem to be following the Crossrail model.

 

[GodAtum]

Who is Crossrail aimed at anyway? Is it in competition with FGW?

 

[AM9]

Yes they seem to have done most things right. Although you will probably find that even in the offices of Crossrail Ltd the employees are outnumbered by consultants. HS2 does also seem to be following the Crossrail model.

But it is still within budget and programme so maybe that's the way to do it.
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Who is Crossrail aimed at anyway? Is it in competition with FGW?

Crossrail isn't "aimed" at anybody. Crossrail is a TfL project to integrate transport through the centre of London and it will:

relieve the overloading on the Central Line
increase the capacity of the GWML and GEML
connect the West End and City with Canary Wharf and London City​

In effect, it is what has been needed and planned since the UK saw the success of the Paris RERs, i.e. routing high density routes through the centre to get double ended traffic flows.

 

[tbtc]

I didn't see the first episode (don't think I'll bother, given the comments on here!), but I've found the subsequent ones to be very interesting.

Whilst a lot of people obsess about the costs of Crossrail (a well worn argument that I'm not trying to rehash here), the programme showed a lot of benefits that I wasn't aware of - like the "garden" at Canary Wharf - the stations are going to be quite special in some respects - nice to have a programme that's showed a non-Londoner like myself what some of the hurdles have been and what is being delivered "above and beyond" the basic.

If we can apply the same focus on costs/ imagination/ dedication shown in this programme to HS2 then I'm a lot more confident about future infrastructure projects

 

[edwin_m]

In effect, it is what has been needed and planned since the UK saw the success of the Paris RERs, i.e. routing high density routes through the centre to get double ended traffic flows.

Indeed. And in the centre both the RER and Crossrail reduce overcrowding on the existing Metro and Tube lines respectively. Interestingly what has been talked about for years as the Chelsea-Hackney Tube scheme is now most likely to be delivered as Crossrail 2, a similar concept to Crossrail 1 but running northeast-southwest and linking services that currently run to Liverpool Street and Waterloo.

 

[Abpj17]

All three episode have been good. I agree the latter two have been better balanced in terms of people stories. The stories they have had have been interesting - the guy who had been tunnelling for 50 years, the ones doing their first job etc. - the passion they all show is part of the interest. I also thought the history/looking back at the building of the tunnel near excel was fascinating too.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

All three episode have been good. I agree the latter two have been better balanced in terms of people stories. The stories they have had have been interesting - the guy who had been tunnelling for 50 years, the ones doing their first job etc. - the passion they all show is part of the interest. I also thought the history/looking back at the building of the tunnel near excel was fascinating too.

Yes that was very interesting about the Excel/Connaught Tunnel. I have enjoyed the series, I wonder if they will do a follow up.
They say this was the biggest construction project for a long time, was it more complicated in some ways than the building of the Channel Tunnel?

I seem to recall when crossrail was first planned in the 1980s it was to have been a much larger project, as well as going west to Reading (Rather than Maidenhead), it was also going up the Chiltern route towards Aylesbury and I think further east in Essex and south in Kent. Abbey Wood seems an odd place to terminate. I should have thought that Dartford, Ashford or Ebbsfleet/Northfleet or the Medway towns would have been a good destination with more interchange facilities. At least it is now going to Reading which makes more sense.

 

[Bill EWS]

Just caught up with all three programmes on iPlayer. A very good series, which concentrates on the actual physical work involved in building this massive project. One of the better railway programmes.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes that was very interesting about the Excel/Connaught Tunnel. I have enjoyed the series, I wonder if they will do a follow up.
They say this was the biggest construction project for a long time, was it more complicated in some ways than the building of the Channel Tunnel?

I seem to recall when crossrail was first planned in the 1980s it was to have been a much larger project, as well as going west to Reading (Rather than Maidenhead), it was also going up the Chiltern route towards Aylesbury and I think further east in Essex and south in Kent. Abbey Wood seems an odd place to terminate. I should have thought that Dartford, Ashford or Ebbsfleet/Northfleet or the Medway towns would have been a good destination with more interchange facilities. At least it is now going to Reading which makes more sense.

It was probably more complicated that Channel Tunnel in some ways. In particular the Channel Tunnel didn't include any underground stations, and there was very little in the way of pre-existing tunnels to avoid. In other ways it was probably simpler, for example tunneling drives were shorter and more machines could be used simultaneously to speed things up.

As mentioned elsewhere, Crossrail will now extend to Reading. I think the reason for not doing this from scratch was so that Crossrail didn't have to pick up the cost and complication of remodeling Reading station. The reason for Abbey Wood is probably that it's the first place they can terminate and interchange to the existing line. Going any further would involve building more parallel tracks or sharing the existing tracks with increased risk of performance problems.

 

[Stats]

The building of the new Canary Wharf station is amazing, although I am surprised they didn't go into any detail as to why it's pretty much completed with 4 years spare when other stations are just getting underway.

Canary Wharf station was started before anything else, sometime in 2009 I think. The reason is probably to do with opening the shopping levels above the station as soon as possible, even though the station itself won't open until later. Remember also that Crossrail completion was deferred by a couple of years in 2010 in order to reduce construction costs.

Doesn't it have more to do with the development Canary Wharf Group has planned for North Quay which was being delayed by the Crossrail construction works because the land was safeguarded to be used as a works site for the construction of the station? Canary Wharf Group received planning permission for development of North Quay in 2007 on the condition that works did not start until the land was no longer needed for construction of Crossrail.

Here is evidence CWG gave to the Crossrail Bill committee (emphasis mine):
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldselect/ldcross/112/8031904.htm

6123. MR LEWIS: Mr Anderson, could you describe now to the Committee your concerns over sterilisation of this site?

(Mr Anderson) This is because the North Quay site is needed by Crossrail as a construction site in connection with the construction of the station. We have no argument with that and if, as we all hope, we end up building the station, then we will use it too. What we cannot accept, however, is the site being sterilised if, for some reason, the Promoter decides not to implement Crossrail or delays it, whether or not the station is to be built by us. If all went according to plan, the Bill received Royal Assent in the summer, we sign an agreement to build the station and we were given the go-ahead to start working, then the only thing that would hold us up would be waiting for the DLR to vacate the site. We would get on site as quickly as possible, build the station, and get off it again so we could implement our planning permission and develop North Quay.

 

[aylesbury]

One thing this programme shows is that it is possible to build heavy rail tunnels under a city.

Perhaps other cities in the UK could do the same and provide joined up transport links?

Glasgow has its low level line and there is talk of another line and upgrading the subway. Manchester has many alternatives and would benefit from a couple of tunnels, but its all down to money.

 

[GodAtum]

The show seemed to suggest the new Crossrail station connects Moorgate and Liverpool Street stations?

At the beginning the narrator says Crossrail connects Heathrow Airport but it does not directly?

 

[Andrewlong]

As mentioned elsewhere, Crossrail will now extend to Reading. I think the reason for not doing this from scratch was so that Crossrail didn't have to pick up the cost and complication of remodelling the station.

Absolutely - Reading now has 15 platforms whereas before it had just 9. The station will also be handling the new Reading to Heathrow rail link. Which begs the question how much capacity do the slow lines have or will rail link be using fast lines along with HST/IEP?

Final question. The GWML is notorious for delays whether lightning strikes, points/signal failures, broken down trains or people under trains. How will Crossrail function if trains have stopped or delayed because of signalling problems at say Maidenhead or Ealing Broadway ?

 

[Busaholic]

Absolutely - Reading now has 15 platforms whereas before it had just 9. The station will also be handling the new Reading to Heathrow rail link. Which begs the question how much capacity do the slow lines have or will rail link be using fast lines along with HST/IEP?

Final question. The GWML is notorious for delays whether lightning strikes, points/signal failures, broken down trains or people under trains. How will Crossrail function if trains have stopped or delayed because of signalling problems at say Maidenhead or Ealing Broadway ?

They presumably can't all turn back from east at Old Oak Common. Can anyone provide a complete turn-back list, from both directions, of both those that might be used to combat late running and those only to be used in extremis?

 

[dosxuk]

The show seemed to suggest the new Crossrail station connects Moorgate and Liverpool Street stations?

The Liverpool Street Crossrail station is underneath Finsbury Circus, with access from both Liverpool Street and Moorgate stations.

At the beginning the narrator says Crossrail connects Heathrow Airport but it does not directly?

A branch of Crossrail is taking over the Heathrow Connect services, so you will be able to travel directly from Heathrow to the city.

 

[swt_passenger]

Absolutely - Reading now has 15 platforms whereas before it had just 9.

Don't know where that statement comes from but it could be typical of NR spin. Before the rebuild, Reading had 12 platforms in use, 1-4, 4A, 4B, and 5-10.

There are no additional relief line platforms, there were already four before, but the difference is that all four are now 12 car length, and the pair of platforms used for terminating trains are now in between the through lines, rather than outside.

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The show seemed to suggest the new Crossrail station connects Moorgate and Liverpool Street stations?

All four of the central area deep level stations are double ended, with duplicated ticket halls and escalator banks, amongst other things to help distribute passengers along the platforms .

Liverpool St has a western entrance at Moorgate.
Farringdon has an eastern entrance at Barbican.
Tottenham Court Rd has a western entrance at Dean St.
Bond St has an eastern entrance at Hanover Square.

Basically the underground works in the central area, i.e. between Paddington and Whitechapel, are equivalent to eight new station entrances for Crossrail.