TV Alert: BBC 2's Documentary "15 Billion Pound Railway"

[Busaholic]

Having lived in Woolwich for 32 years, used the Connaught Tunnel to get to Stratford to trainspot in the late 1950s and for getting to work for two years in 1967-69, today's programme was fascinating for me.

Absolutely agree about the fascination - I was only in (Metropolitan Borough of) Woolwich 1948-1967 but that encompassed trams, trolleybuses north and south of the river and travelling through that tunnel from North Woolwich. Certainly can't see how any accusations about 'dumbing down' could be thrown at this second programme.

 

[AM9]

Couldn't they have just ordered stock that fit the tunnels :P 313's Did (I know they were on 3rd rail but still...)

Why perpetuate the problems of non-standard loading gauges. Crossrail is all about capacity and leaving the Connaught tunnel as is would just make it's provisioning and operation more expensive forever. We should be removing the shortfalls of being pioneers in railway development, not perpetuating them.

 

[cossie4i]

I enjoyed last nights programme, I thought it was well balanced

 

[NotATrainspott]

Why perpetuate the problems of non-standard loading gauges. Crossrail is all about capacity and leaving the Connaught tunnel as is would just make it's provisioning and operation more expensive forever. We should be removing the shortfalls of being pioneers in railway development, not perpetuating them.

There's no point building Crossrail to have a larger loading gauge than the rest of the country when most of its length is on existing tracks west of Paddington and east of Pudding Mill Lane. Only if you are building a completely new route all from scratch does it make sense to build to GC gauge, as is being done for HS2.

 

[AM9]

There's no point building Crossrail to have a larger loading gauge than the rest of the country when most of its length is on existing tracks west of Paddington and east of Pudding Mill Lane. Only if you are building a completely new route all from scratch does it make sense to build to GC gauge, as is being done for HS2.

Who mentioned GC gauge. The comment was regarding leaving the non-UK standard gauge centre section of the tunnel as is and committing the whole line to smaller stock such as PEPs. The rest of the line is normal UK domestic gauge (not sure of its designation) with clearance to include OHLE and meet current H&S requirements for evacuation.

 

[GodAtum]

What do SW commuters (from reading, maidenhead etc) think of Crossrail? I guess those with 1st class tickets will not use it.

 

[edwin_m]

Who mentioned GC gauge. The comment was regarding leaving the non-UK standard gauge centre section of the tunnel as is and committing the whole line to smaller stock such as PEPs. The rest of the line is normal UK domestic gauge (not sure of its designation) with clearance to include OHLE and meet current H&S requirements for evacuation.

My take was that it was always intended to enlarge the tunnel to UK gauge but the previous plan of doing so by removing the iron rings turned out not to be practicable.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Who mentioned GC gauge. The comment was regarding leaving the non-UK standard gauge centre section of the tunnel as is and committing the whole line to smaller stock such as PEPs. The rest of the line is normal UK domestic gauge (not sure of its designation) with clearance to include OHLE and meet current H&S requirements for evacuation.

I thought you were suggesting that Crossrail were designed to be used with standard European EMUs. I don't think the original Connaught Tunnel was properly smaller than the standard UK gauge though, in the same way that most railway lines need adjustment to fit overhead electrification. The single bore tunnels may have presented problems for evacuation as there wouldn't have been space for an evacuation walkway as there are in all new bored tunnels. Ordering stock with an emergency exit door at either end wouldn't have been impossible - the 378s have one presumably for the Thames Tunnel - but it wouldn't have been ideal when it isn't needed anywhere else. The idea of retaining third rail electrification to avoid the need for vertical OHLE clearance was similarly discounted.

 

[edwin_m]

The evacuation issue on the single bore tunnels was considered an acceptable risk. The narrow section was short enough that in the unlikely event of the front-most door stopping there, passengers would be able to walk through the train and evacuate by a different door.

 

[John Webb]

The evacuation issue on the single bore tunnels was considered an acceptable risk. The narrow section was short enough that in the unlikely event of the front-most door stopping there, passengers would be able to walk through the train and evacuate by a different door.

Up until the advent of 1st Generation DMUs on the line in the early 1960s, the passenger stock was compartment stock, mostly of Gresley design including 'Quad-Arts'. It must have been one of the last steam-operated branch lines in London!
I never heard of a train sticking in the tunnel, but there were fierce gradients down into it and up out of it; wish I'd had a tape recorder in steam days when I travelled on the line.

 

[hwl]

My take was that it was always intended to enlarge the tunnel to UK gauge but the previous plan of doing so by removing the iron rings turned out not to be practicable.

That was mine as well.

The GEML and GWML loading guages were a bit roomier than most other companies so the Connaught tunnel might have beenthe most limiting structure on the routes overall.

 

[tractakid]

I was in London on Wednesday, and my fairly spontaneous exploration took me to the Woolwich ferry, which featured visually a fair bit, and over the Connaught footbridge on a walk from London City Airport to Royal Albert. It was amazing that the program broadcast that very day focused on the area I decided to explore! (though I only watched it today). I had no idea there was a tunnel below me when I walked the bridge.

 

[Busaholic]

Anybody know the content of the third programme?

 

[SamS]

Anybody know the content of the third programme?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04cnps9

This episode follows engineers building London's brand new underground railway, Crossrail, as they race to build ten new train stations across London.

A team battles to put together the giant jigsaw that will become a cathedral-sized station at Canary Wharf. It's so big, they have to build it in a dock and underwater. Its architect-designed roof is so complicated it comes in a kit of over 2,500 pieces. As engineers carve out the underground caverns that will become the new stations, they hit on some gruesome discoveries of London's past.

 

[Busaholic]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04cnps9

Sounds good to me

 

[Manchester77]

I wonder if closer to the line opening they'll do some programs about fitting out the tunnels and station and maybe even the rolling stock?

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I have seen two episodes so far both very interesting, especially about the Connaught Tunnel, under the Royal Docks, I had no idea that was there, fascinating now, but a real achievement by the Victoria builders. I presume it was use for goods mainly around the docks.?

 

[swt_passenger]

I have seen two episodes so far both very interesting, especially about the Connaught Tunnel, under the Royal Docks, I had no idea that was there, fascinating now, but a real achievement by the Victoria builders. I presume it was use for goods mainly around the docks.?

It remained in use (single track only) as part of the NLL to North Woolwich until only a few years ago, (end of 2006?) when the NLL was closed beyond Stratford for the DLR to take some of that route over, of course it was also by then already earmarked for conversion to Crossrail anyway.

I did get the impression from the programme that it had been disused for much longer than the reality...

 

[Busaholic]

It remained in use (single track only) as part of the NLL to North Woolwich until only a few years ago, (end of 2006?) when the NLL was closed beyond Stratford for the DLR to take some of that route over, of course it was also by then already earmarked for conversion to Crossrail anyway.

I did get the impression from the programme that it had been disused for much longer than the reality...

You're right, it closed in December 2006. I travelled from North Woolwich to Stratford on the last day. If the tunnels being built for Crossrail are being built with the same thoroughness and dedication as the Connaught then there'll be nothing to worry about for decades to come.

 

[ModernRailways]

I wonder if closer to the line opening they'll do some programs about fitting out the tunnels and station and maybe even the rolling stock?

More than likely, possibly even another two series. Series 1 - the building of the tunnels etc. Series 2 - building the trains/testing, fitting out the stations, installing signalling systems. Series 3 - A more London Underground style approach, following staff with the service up and running!

 

[Manchester77]

More than likely, possibly even another two series. Series 1 - the building of the tunnels etc. Series 2 - building the trains/testing, fitting out the stations, installing signalling systems. Series 3 - A more London Underground style approach, following staff with the service up and running!

Hope so!!

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

It remained in use (single track only) as part of the NLL to North Woolwich until only a few years ago, (end of 2006?) when the NLL was closed beyond Stratford for the DLR to take some of that route over, of course it was also by then already earmarked for conversion to Crossrail anyway.

I did get the impression from the programme that it had been disused for much longer than the reality...

Oh, right, I must have gone through it then without realising.

 

[swcovas]

Having watched the three Crossrail programmes I get the feeling that London is getting a hell of a lot for the £15 bn especially compared to the £1 bn that the Welsh govt plans to spend for few miles of motorway in Newport to by-pass an EXISTING motorway! But I guess that's another debate!

 

[Daniel Pyke]

I'd like to see further series. It is one of the biggest (and most challenging) construction projects out there so it is good to see it working well (so far!).

 

[aylesbury]

I enjoyed the last programme especially the parts about Canary Wharf station the roof construction .How the escalators were lowered in and and placed in situ was an exercise of great care.Overall the series showed the construction of this railway in a very good light with no mocking comments,lets have some more series on railways in the future.

 

[Squaddie]

Having watched the three Crossrail programmes I get the feeling that London is getting a hell of a lot for the £15 bn especially compared to the £1 bn that the Welsh govt plans to spend for few miles of motorway in Newport to by-pass an EXISTING motorway! But I guess that's another debate!

To build a new motorway in the UK typically costs £24m per mile (or £38m per km). The proposed M4 relief road in south Wales is 23km in length, which suggests a cost of about £900m. Once you add in the required junctions, feeder roads and the difficulties of constructing a motorway on terrain such as the Gwent Levels, a billion pounds is pretty much exactly what you'd expect it to cost.

The M4 connects the three largest conurbations in Wales (Swansea, Cardiff and Newport) with each other and with England, and is of vital importance to the Welsh economy. A new motorway is required because the existing M4 is narrow, meandering, not fit for purpose - for example, it does not have a hard shoulder for much of its length - and is extremely congested.

 

[HowardGWR]

To build a new motorway in the UK typically costs £24m per mile (or £38m per km). The proposed M4 relief road in south Wales is 23km in length, which suggests a cost of about £900m. Once you add in the required junctions, feeder roads and the difficulties of constructing a motorway on terrain such as the Gwent Levels, a billion pounds is pretty much exactly what you'd expect it to cost.

The M4 connects the three largest conurbations in Wales (Swansea, Cardiff and Newport) with each other and with England, and is of vital importance to the Welsh economy. A new motorway is required because the existing M4 is narrow, meandering, not fit for purpose - for example, it does not have a hard shoulder for much of its length - and is extremely congested.

It's not needed, just wanted, like everything else.

 

[Andrewlong]

What do SW commuters (from reading, maidenhead etc) think of Crossrail? I guess those with 1st class tickets will not use it.

If I was travelling from a Reading to central London I would still take the fast train to Paddington and change onto Crossrail there as it would take longer on Crossrail stopper from Reading.

I travel cattle class and the way things are going there probably won't be any first class seating on the HST's soon.

 

[JGR]

To build a new motorway in the UK typically costs £24m per mile (or £38m per km).

That seems dubious to me, kilometres are shorter than miles.

It's not needed, just wanted, like everything else.

That makes the words 'needed' and 'wanted' fairly meaningless.

 

[Squaddie]

That seems dubious to me, kilometres are shorter than miles.

Yep, you're right - got my figures the wrong way round!