Trivia: UK rail line with best case for closure

[70014IronDuke]

So?
At the end of the day the line is well used.

(As i posted later)

At the end of the day, the four trains each way per day are "well used" - that does not make the line well used.

Although I assume that the southern and northern sections - which can sustain more commuters - are better used.

 

[Waldgrun]

There has never been a station at Montgomery! It isn't even on the Cambrian.

Sorry there was a station that served Montgomery true it was at least one and a half miles out of the town, in the Village of Caerhowel. It carried the name of Montgomery only as far as I am aware. If you are interested in history a token issued from this station was a key part of the Abermule collision in 1921.

 

[Techniquest]

(As i posted later)

At the end of the day, the four trains each way per day are "well used" - that does not make the line well used.

Although I assume that the southern and northern sections - which can sustain more commuters - are better used.

Thank you for your reply, I appreciate the reasons for delay, it's happened to me and I've recently had difficulty getting on here lately.

At this moment in time, I'm a tad busy but aim to reply to your earlier post by tomorrow. Lots of interesting points to reply to!

 

[Gareth Marston]

There has never been a station at Montgomery! It isn't even on the Cambrian.

Sorry there was a station that served Montgomery true it was at least one and a half miles out of the town, in the Village of Caerhowel. It carried the name of Montgomery only as far as I am aware. If you are interested in history a token issued from this station was a key part of the Abermule collision in 1921.

The token for the Montgomery to Abermule section was correctly issued to the DOWN train at Montgomery. The crew handed it in at Abermule but were then re-issued it by the lad porter and without the footplate crew checking they had the right token proceeded toward Newtown when there was another train already in section coming toward them...

My grandfather always had a thing about nepotism - the lad porter got the job on the back of his uncle being one of the signalmen. He was the same age as the porter and knew off him living nearby -not the sharpest tool in the shed apparently.
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(As i posted later)

At the end of the day, the four trains each way per day are "well used" - that does not make the line well used.

Although I assume that the southern and northern sections - which can sustain more commuters - are better used.

I can see some freight getting diverted over the Central Wales line soon, electrification work and aspirations for increased metro style frequencies near Cardiff are gong to put freight paths under pressure in South Wales.

 

[deltic]

The token for the Montgomery to Abermule section was correctly issued to the DOWN train at Montgomery. The crew handed it in at Abermule but were then re-issued it by the lad porter and without the footplate crew checking they had the right token proceeded toward Newtown when there was another train already in section coming toward them...

My grandfather always had a thing about nepotism - the lad porter got the job on the back of his uncle being one of the signalmen. He was the same age as the porter and knew off him living nearby -not the sharpest tool in the shed apparently.
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I can see some freight getting diverted over the Central Wales line soon, electrification work and aspirations for increased metro style frequencies near Cardiff are gong to put freight paths under pressure in South Wales.

Once we stop using coal are there any many freight movements left in South Wales

 

[krus_aragon]

Once we stop using coal are there any many freight movements left in South Wales

There's steel passing through, and Supermarket freight as far as Wentloog (between Newport and Cardiff).

 

[Gareth Marston]

There's steel passing through, and Supermarket freight as far as Wentloog (between Newport and Cardiff).

Margam to Dee Marsh steel is the contender for coming up the Central Wales line.

 

[deltic]

Margam to Dee Marsh steel is the contender for coming up the Central Wales line.

Can the line take such heavy trains?

 

[PHILIPE]

Can the line take such heavy trains?

Yes. They've been that way in the past although not for a while now.

 

[thirdriding]

I do wonder if trains to/from Barton on Humber would be better going to Doncaster instead of Cleethorpes, purely as a way of attracting more passengers. Have a stopping service from Barnetby to Cleethorpes as well as the TPX and it could work well.

I've always assumed that the Barton Line is used for travel between Grimsby and Hull.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes. They've been that way in the past although not for a while now.

The Central Wales line was built to get at heavy industry traffic from South Wales and the structures on the line are all well built, don't let the fact that a handful of DMU's trundle along it today mislead.

There's 2 return trips a day running Dee Marsh to Margam at moment

 

[backontrack]

(As i posted later)

At the end of the day, the four trains each way per day are "well used" - that does not make the line well used.

Although I assume that the southern and northern sections - which can sustain more commuters - are better used.

How often do you use the line?

 

[The Planner]

Once we stop using coal are there any many freight movements left in South Wales

Still scrap from Cardiff Tidal knocking about to the West Mids.

 

[PHILIPE]

The Central Wales line was built to get at heavy industry traffic from South Wales and the structures on the line are all well built, don't let the fact that a handful of DMU's trundle along it today mislead.

There's 2 return trips a day running Dee Marsh to Margam at moment

Prior to approx mid-sixties there were 9 or 10 freights in each direction almost all worked by ex LM Class 8F 2-8-0s. There were rear banking engines to bank from Knighton to Llangunllo and Llandovery to Sugar Loaf Summit.

 

[deltic]

The Central Wales line was built to get at heavy industry traffic from South Wales and the structures on the line are all well built, don't let the fact that a handful of DMU's trundle along it today mislead.

There's 2 return trips a day running Dee Marsh to Margam at moment

From the sectional appendix looks like only Class 37s are allowed on the route

 

[PHILIPE]

From the sectional appendix looks like only Class 37s are allowed on the route

Does this just apply to freight trains ? All manner of Diesels work the route on Charters.

 

[6Gman]

I'm going to weigh in here purely from the comments on the Heart of Wales line.

My point is that section is well used for sure. It's worth pointing out that closing that bit would mean no rail route all the way to Builth Road for the Royal Welsh Show. Yes I know that's only once a year for a few days, but it does bring in a large amount of people to the line. Please don't suggest people would happily change from train to bus at Llandovery or Llandrindod, that just wouldn't happen.

Does it?

I have looked at the rail option for the Royal Welsh and it just doesn't work!

I'd be surprised if 100 people a day used it for the Show plus perhaps 300 on the special from Cardiff.

That's 1600 over the four days. The show attendance is c.220-240,000 each year. (So that's less than 1% by rail, if that)

400 daily means 10 extra road coaches - neither here nor there for the road network (there's usually 20 or more coaches each day anyway).

 

[PHILIPE]

Does this just apply to freight trains ? All manner of Diesels work the route on Charters.

I've just turned up a Video of 66060 working Freight over Heart of Wales line on 20 September 2009.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Prior to approx mid-sixties there were 9 or 10 freights in each direction almost all worked by ex LM Class 8F 2-8-0s. There were rear banking engines to bank from Knighton to Llangunllo and Llandovery to Sugar Loaf Summit.

According to the Traffic survey done in 1961 for the Reshaping report it was carrying a tonnage in the highest category given 10,000 per week and above.
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I've just turned up a Video of 66060 working Freight over Heart of Wales line on 20 September 2009.

Yes they've done it a few tines when Marches has been closed.
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Does it?

I have looked at the rail option for the Royal Welsh and it just doesn't work!

I'd be surprised if 100 people a day used it for the Show plus perhaps 300 on the special from Cardiff.

That's 1600 over the four days. The show attendance is c.220-240,000 each year. (So that's less than 1% by rail, if that)

400 daily means 10 extra road coaches - neither here nor there for the road network (there's usually 20 or more coaches each day anyway).

Don't think you've ever experienced the traffic on show week. It causes congestion up here in Newtown 35 miles away (A483 via Llandod ) or 44 miles away (A470 & A489) all week from the Saturday before on setting up through to the following weekend and then it's first weekend of school holidays.

 

[craigybagel]

Does it?

I have looked at the rail option for the Royal Welsh and it just doesn't work!

I'd be surprised if 100 people a day used it for the Show plus perhaps 300 on the special from Cardiff.

That's 1600 over the four days. The show attendance is c.220-240,000 each year. (So that's less than 1% by rail, if that)

400 daily means 10 extra road coaches - neither here nor there for the road network (there's usually 20 or more coaches each day anyway).

3 car trains full to bursting point apparently (I've not had the pleasure of working down there during that week yet).

Llandrindod is the focal point of that line. There aren't that many people from North of there going to Swansea or from the south going to Shrewsbury, but there are lots from both sides going to Landod.

Not that I support closure of any line really, but I've always wondered about the Blaenau Ffestiniog branch. Unlike the Heart of Wales, there is a relatively high quality bus substitute available along the entire route, and the line has regular serious problems with flooding. Since there isn't any nuclear freight down there anymore AFAIK you would think that if we had to close a line somewhere it would be that?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I've always assumed that the Barton Line is used for travel between Grimsby and Hull.

Historically it was, the trains ran to New Holland pier to connect with a ferry across the Humber... But then someone built a bridge instead!

 

[OxtedL]

How often do you use the line?

The post you quoted states that their opinion is that the small number of (very short) trains on the line mean that regardless of how full they are, the line cannot be considered to be "well used".

If that is their metric of "well used", it is completely irrelevant how often they use the line or even if they use the line at all, since the running of only a small number of trains is a fact. Repeatedly asking the same question does not change this and contributes nothing to the discussion. I have no idea why you have put it in bold.

I am very confused as to what you are trying to achieve in this thread - you have asked people which lines might be candidates for closure, then consistently attacked them for expressing opinions about which lines meet potential closure criteria.

 

[Argosy]

Not that I've ever been up there, but how does the case for the Stranraer branch stack up since the relocation of the ferry terminal?

So so, but not as good as the other SPT stations (cheap fares etc). Also Stranraer is in a different Council area, one that does not run north-south, but east west.
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Not very well, I'm afraid. After December there'll be no direct services via Kilwinning, so only the Kilmarnock trains will remain. They've been talking about making all services from Ayr to Stranraer shuttles, so passengers from Stranraer and Barrhead would have to change at Ayr or Girvan.
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No not quite correct. Post Dec 13 the Stranraer service is essentially Kilmarnock - Stranraer (with a few Glasgow via Barrhead bolt ons), except Sundays when it is Ayr - Stranraer (very short sighted when most people want to go to/from Glasgow - doh) only. The Girvan services are essentially an Ayr - Girvan pattern with a few Killies thrown in.

 

[berneyarms]

Not very well, I'm afraid. After December there'll be no direct services via Kilwinning, so only the Kilmarnock trains will remain. They've been talking about making all services from Ayr to Stranraer shuttles, so passengers from Stranraer and Barrhead would have to change at Ayr or Girvan.

Clearly Scotrail don't agree with you - the actual number of trains to/from Stranraer will increase from 6 to 8 each way Monday to Saturday and from 3 to 5 each way on Sundays.

Yes it's true that they won't operate directly via Kilwinning to/from Glasgow, but will operate to/from Kilmarnock with some extending to/from Glasgow.

The fact remains that the number of trains is increasing - not really a sign of a line fit for closure.

 

[krus_aragon]

Does it?

I have looked at the rail option for the Royal Welsh and it just doesn't work!

I'd be surprised if 100 people a day used it for the Show plus perhaps 300 on the special from Cardiff.

That's 1600 over the four days. The show attendance is c.220-240,000 each year. (So that's less than 1% by rail, if that)

400 daily means 10 extra road coaches - neither here nor there for the road network (there's usually 20 or more coaches each day anyway).

On the one occasion that I've been to the Royal Welsh (3 years ago, IIRC), I went by train from Cardiff. As I recall, the train consisted of a pair of 150s. Patronage was very light from Cardiff to Swansea (given the early start) but the train filled progressively from Llanelli onward, until we were at standing room only on arrival. It would appear that the train service mainly servers the local area, rather than far-flung visitors.

 

[6Gman]

Don't think you've ever experienced the traffic on show week.

I have. I've been to the Show two or three times.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Don't think you've ever experienced the traffic on show week.

I have. I've been to the Show two or three times.

Of course Built Wells station on the Mid Wales line was right next to it now has the Little Chef on the site. The show only moved to the Llanelwedd site permanently in 1964, 2 years too late!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Of course Built Wells station on the Mid Wales line was right next to it now has the Little Chef on the site. The show only moved to the Llanelwedd site permanently in 1964, 2 years too late!

Fair comment - but that wold not have been enough to save the route ! - Only joking.,..the extra RWS services were funded through the SRA RPP scheme and then rolled into the existing franchise. ONe would ot expect it to be do ore than scrape the passenger / attendee figures.

One trick that Arriva might tackle is a connecting bus from Hereford to Hay when the excellent festival is on ...massive attendance from all over 99% road focused I suspect (including self - but we have Hereford based close relatives where we lodge) ...

Any news / indications though on the HoW loadings - as recoreded in a differing thread. ..?