• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Trivia: UK rail line with best case for closure

Status
Not open for further replies.

backontrack

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2014
Messages
6,399
Location
The UK
Apologies if this has been done before, but which rail line in the UK do people think has the best case for closure?

Personally, I would guess that the Fishguard branch, the Heysham branch and the Stranraer branch have the best cases for closure - they won't close because of the sheer effort and money involved, but they're the most likely to, I guess.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
Apologies if this has been done before, but which rail line in the UK do people think has the best case for closure?

Personally, I would guess that the Fishguard branch, the Heysham branch and the Stranraer branch have the best cases for closure - they won't close because of the sheer effort and money involved, but they're the most likely to, I guess.

Fishguard had an enhanced service and a new station built (old re-opened) a couple of years ago providing a service over and above the traditional boat connections.
 

backontrack

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2014
Messages
6,399
Location
The UK
That's true, but it still isn't the most convenient of routes. How about the Borderlands Line (south of Shotton)?
 

NSEFAN

Established Member
Joined
17 Jun 2007
Messages
3,518
Location
Southampton
Any closure is only worth it if there is considerable money to be saved. The only major closures which should happen now in most cases in the UK are where the train will be replaced with a nearby equivalent, for example Stratford - North Woolwich being replaced by the tube and DLR.
 

backontrack

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2014
Messages
6,399
Location
The UK
I'm aware of this; I don't support any of these closures. I'm just wondering which line has the best business case for closure.
 

SeanG

Established Member
Joined
4 May 2013
Messages
1,378
But the Fishguard and Heysham branch serve important ports. The Heysham branch is also short so seems pointless to hypothetically close to save money - I doubt that it would save any extra units. Additionally, there is the power station which receives freight flows
 

Bungle965

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
2 Jul 2014
Messages
3,384
Location
Calder Valley
This shall be a interesting thread! Have to keep my eye on this one.
Sam
 

backontrack

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2014
Messages
6,399
Location
The UK
But the Fishguard and Heysham branch serve important ports. The Heysham branch is also short so seems pointless to hypothetically close to save money - I doubt that it would save any extra units. Additionally, there is the power station which receives freight flows

Please look at my posts again.
 

backontrack

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2014
Messages
6,399
Location
The UK
Busy route Wrexham to Bidston.

From what I'd heard, it wasn't very busy, but I am happy to be proved wrong.

Let's go back to the question at the start of the thread. Which UK rail lines have the best cases for closure?
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
From what I'd heard, it wasn't very busy, but I am happy to be proved wrong.

Let's go back to the question at the start of the thread. Which UK rail lines have the best cases for closure?

I have traveled on the Wrexham to Bidston route and seen the trains with my own eyes. It appears, with respect, that you are picking out routes about which you have little or no knowledge.
 

thenorthern

Established Member
Joined
27 May 2013
Messages
4,714
An interesting idea for a thread, The Leeds to Morecambe line between Long Preston and Carnforth could be seen as one as its only used by 5 trains per day in each direction and the most amount of passengers any intermediate station along the line sees per year is 25,000.

Why has no one mentioned the Stockport to Stalybridge line.
 

GrimsbyPacer

Established Member
Joined
13 Oct 2014
Messages
2,254
Location
Grimsby
Railways are part of the national infrastructure and like the many unprofitable country lanes, closure would always be a mistake.
That said, I think if any line should close to save money it should be a duplicate line, that way the track mileage is reduced, but revenue from passengers would increase at the alternative station.
So Sheffield to York via Pontefract, Ramsgate to Ashford via Canterbury, Stockport to Stalybridge, Hertford and St Albans Branches etc.
However all these are needed, either as diversions or for extra capacity in the future.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,935
Location
Mold, Clwyd
You have to look at the freight and strategic value of a line as well as passenger use.
The Wrexham-Shotton line has heavy freight, at least for now.
So does Stockport-Stalybridge/Ashton Moss (at least until the Ordsall Chord opens), and is a vital link in the Manchester area.
The Central Wales line has a poor passenger business case, but it is also kept as an emergency route for the Shotton steel traffic.
The weakest business cases will be lines with no freight and no growth potential, together with high renewal costs (embankments, viaducts etc).
Some lines might also work better as light rail or tram-train local routes (eg the Oldham loop).
 
Last edited:

backontrack

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2014
Messages
6,399
Location
The UK
Railways are part of the national infrastructure and like the many unprofitable country lanes, closure would always be a mistake.
That said, I think if any line should close to save money it should be a duplicate line, that way the track mileage is reduced, but revenue from passengers would increase at the alternative station.
So Sheffield to York via Pontefract, Ramsgate to Ashford via Canterbury, Stockport to Stalybridge, Hertford and St Albans Branches etc.
However all these are needed, either as diversions or for extra capacity in the future.

I live down here and I can safely say that there is no way on earth that the Stour Valley Line will close. It's the route that HS1 goes down, and, especially after the works at Canterbury West, it's the main route serving Canterbury, Ramsgate, Broadstairs and Margate from London. I'd say that the most likely to go is the route from Sittingbourne to Sheerness (not that it will).
 

Tobbes

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2012
Messages
1,242
I should start out by saying that I generally oppose closing routes, but I actually think that this is quite a good exercise to ensure that we can make the case for rail, especially when comes to reopening proposals.

Apologies if this has been done before, but which rail line in the UK do people think has the best case for closure?

Perhaps you mean "which has the highest level of subsidy whilst offering the smallest community benefits that couldn't be delivered in another way"? Or "scrapping which line will save the largest amount of money (operating subsidy and renewals) over the next {n} years?"

In which case, the key will be how do you measure community benefit? For instance, in East Anglia, you could make the argument that scrapping the Reedham - Breydon Junction line via Berney Arms is unlikely to inconvenience many people (1500 passenger/annum at Berney Arms), but it isn't likely to save very much money. So it is a good candidate for closure or not?

Similarly, I suppose you could target the East Suffolk from Lowestoft south to Saxmundham (kept open for flask trains to Sizewell), but here there are (some) more people to inconvenience. Again, though I don't think that it would save that much money, and the (recently improved) 1tph service is showing signs of delivering (e.g., Beecles +20% year-on-year).

So I suppose it really matters how you measure "best to cut"; if it comes to this (which I fear it may, given the state of DfT's / NR's finances) then what we really need is subsidiarity so that regional government can decide either where the axe is to fall or whether they would like to make up the shortfall themselves.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,720
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
But the Fishguard and Heysham branch serve important ports. The Heysham branch is also short so seems pointless to hypothetically close to save money - I doubt that it would save any extra units. Additionally, there is the power station which receives freight flows

Heysham probably has little case to exist, but equally probably is run at a very marginal cost. It might be made more useful with a couple more stations away from the port, but equally a bus shuttle from Morecambe would do the job quite adequately.

But if it's not costing too much to leave it there, it might as well stay.
 

thenorthern

Established Member
Joined
27 May 2013
Messages
4,714
With most underused lines and stations the answer isn't just to close the station or line its to improve the service.

25 years ago Bromsgrove had 1 platform meaning southbound trains had to cross onto the northbound line to stop there and it was served by 5 trains per day in both direction and would have made a good case for closure.

Today it has 2 platforms and for most of the day is served by the hourly Birmingham to Hereford services with 571,000 passengers using the station last year. With some of the other underused stations and lines such as Leeds to Lancaster and Peartree station improving service levels may improve usage numbers.
 

47802

Established Member
Joined
6 Mar 2010
Messages
3,454
An interesting idea for a thread, The Leeds to Morecambe line between Long Preston and Carnforth could be seen as one as its only used by 5 trains per day in each direction and the most amount of passengers any intermediate station along the line sees per year is 25,000.

Why has no one mentioned the Stockport to Stalybridge line.

I would certainly go along with those, Passenger from West York's can use the Copy Pit route instead to get to such as Morecambe, and the parliamentry's want dealing with.

I would agree that alternatives closure such as improving the service should always be looked at but in the case of Bromsgrove for instance that's a town with a significant population and clearly had always some potential especially for commuters to Birmingham.

I would add Heysham, and possibly Stranraer now that the ferry traffic has gone, York Pontefract, yes I wondered onto Pontefract station a couple of months ago while I was waiting for my dad at the nearby Hospital it had 1 passenger on it.

Services that are carting fresh air need to be looked at in my view, unfortunately the politicians don't seems have the balls for a fight these days on railway closures.
 
Last edited:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,720
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
With most underused lines and stations the answer isn't just to close the station or line its to improve the service.

That does very much depend. I just looked at a map of Heysham (to use that example) and I can't see any way in which a decent quality bus service up the main A road wouldn't be a far better service than the train. Stations could be added, but the railway is right at the back of the village, whereas the road is convenient for much of it.

OTOH, I suspect a half-hourly semifast or fast Bedford-Milton Keynes Central service would, even if a bit slower than the X5, seriously damage Stagecoach's pockets and possibly even get some people out of cars.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
One thing I think that needs to be considered is the option for franchised, high-quality[1] bus and coach services to be brought under the railway ticketing system. Closure at the moment would simply lead to a local cowboy running something, or a lowest-cost tender. Yet money could be saved and passengers retained if the quality was up to scratch.

[1] I'm thinking ideally coaches, but if not certainly Stagecoach Gold/Arriva Sapphire standard, with full through ticketing onto the railway system (give the driver a railway ticket machine as they used to on the UCOC 99 when it was a Virgin service), GPS tracking feeding the railway PIS etc.
 

davyp

Member
Joined
9 Dec 2012
Messages
117
Location
Sth Manchester
Stockport to Staybridge
Try Realtime Trains for Ash Bridge Junction on Monday 9th November
I realise that some of the trains will not run, but so many do. The alternative routes are either too congested or too long.
 

WestRiding

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2012
Messages
1,014
So Sheffield to York via Pontefract,

Rubbish, this is an important freight route that keeps slow freight from fighting for a gap on the West Riding from South Kirkby to Hare Park which is also one hell of a climb from Hemsworth.

Though it is a shame the passenger service via Pontefract Baghill is so poor, but Metro and SYPTE have no interest in supporting a service this way.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

route:oxford

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2008
Messages
4,949
Isn't Akeman Street branch still officially open?

I'd put it down for closure.
 

backontrack

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2014
Messages
6,399
Location
The UK
Do you mean best case for closure, or worst case for staying open?
Hmm. That's a good point. Which would you say for each?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I should start out by saying that I generally oppose closing routes, but I actually think that this is quite a good exercise to ensure that we can make the case for rail, especially when comes to reopening proposals.

Agreed.
 

deltic

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2010
Messages
3,719
Ones that cost a fortune to keep open, generate little revenue and carry few passengers are Inverness to Kyle and Wick/Thurso - Oban/Fort William and Mallaig lines, and central Wales line. - with declining freight Settle-Carlisle line probably loses money hand over fist. Plenty of other lines round the country carry too much fresh air but savings are probably not that extensive from closing them.
 

backontrack

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2014
Messages
6,399
Location
The UK
Ones that cost a fortune to keep open, generate little revenue and carry few passengers are Inverness to Kyle and Wick/Thurso - Oban/Fort William and Mallaig lines, and central Wales line. - with declining freight Settle-Carlisle line probably loses money hand over fist. Plenty of other lines round the country carry too much fresh air but savings are probably not that extensive from closing them.

Not true, I'm afraid. All the Scottish lines you've mentioned benefit from tourism, and there's quite a bit of usage down the southern half of the Far North Line. (The first train down from Wick is usually quite crowded because of the early ferry from Stromness). The HoWL gets some tourists too, but not nearly as many.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
33,719
Location
Scotland
Ones that cost a fortune to keep open, generate little revenue and carry few passengers are Inverness to Kyle and Wick/Thurso...
Try telling that to the people who use and depend on these lines. If anything they have great untapped demand that could be met by targeted infrastructure improvements (think loops) to increase the number of services and increase reliability.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top