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Trivia: lines which are open but really shouldn't be?

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Iskra

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I'm beginning to wish I'd never started this thread!
Meanwhile, just been on a train - intercity Virgin - which had about 20 on it, and it's been like that every time I've used it, save for big football games. 1840 Glasgow-Birmingham. AFAIK it's the last train back to England (beyond Carlisle)on a Saturday, dunno why it's doesn't carry on to Euston and possibly have more pax?
I'm glad it runs, it's invaluable, but isn't it a bit early to be the last train back to England (beyond Ca......) on a Saturday??

Most people travel long distance on Fridays or Sundays, positioning themselves for the Saturday.

I used to work for a motorway service station company and Saturday night was one of the quietest of the week as most people are already where they need to be (excluding the occasional football related deluge).
 
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Howardh

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Most people travel long distance on Fridays or Sundays, positioning themselves for the Saturday.

I used to work for a motorway service station company and Saturday night was one of the quietest of the week as most people are already where they need to be (excluding the occasional football related deluge).
Ha! I used to do the night shift on the services way back in the 80's and Saturday nights were the busiest of them all, we had to employ agency staff to fill the gaps, one of whom we found fast asleep in a cupboard at 4am! Wonder if motorway services are the same now generally?
 

Iskra

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Haha, I suppose it depends where you are! Monday and Fridays tended to be busiest on nights. It was about this time last year that I left that company (thank god).
 

34104

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Personally I think it should be reviewed along with a large number of others, perhaps closed north of Invergordon, of course that wont go down well with the railway fantasists, tree huggers, etc. who need to get into to financial real world.

To be perfectly honest, not sure why you post on a rail forum in the first place.
 

backontrack

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West Highland Line is one of the busiest rural lines in the country and generates very large numbers of tourists which are a huge part of the areas local economy.

You'd be completely mad to contemplate closing it.

Whitby is interesting in that as you point out it's slower than bus if you're coming from the south. However this is much less of an issue from North East and within the Esk Valley itself the train is both quicker and more reliable. Just because it doesn't serve Leeds well doesn't mean it doesn't serve anyone.

Far North line is tricky. Passenger numbers on the south of the line have grown strongly with an increase in Inverness commuters and the new stations at Beauly and Conon Bridge. Commuter traffic is strong at least as far as Tain and journey times are competitive to Lairg so the Invergordon cut off suggestion is daft.

Kyle is also very important for tourists and not much slower than the coach.

There is an issue with Caithness traffic as the bus is significantly quicker, especially to Wick. The solution is probably a combination of some upgrades to infrastructure to enable faster journey times (especially the RETB, points and level crossings), Closure of some of the less useful stations (Culrain, Kildonan, Kinbrace, Scotscalder, Georgemas Junction) and a new north - west chord at Georgemas to allow direct running to Thurso without reversal.

Ultimately you could possibly justify closure of the Wick branch but the marginal cost of operating it is probably very low so I'd keep it open but focus journey time improvements on Thurso where it's easier to compete and the link to the Orkneys adds to its strategic value.

I'd say this:

-More passing loops, particularly between Inverness and Beauly, Dingwall and Tain & Helmsdale and Georgemas.

-A new station at Evanton, and another at Halkirk.

-Possible closures at Georgemas, Scotscalder, Kildonan, Culrain, Invershin and, I'm afraid, the beloved Altnabreac.

-A Tain-Dornoch-Golspie branch to cut times to Thurso, and Inverness-Lairg local services. This would have to mean the closure of Rogart.

-A new junction after Halkirk station to reach Thurso without reversing, and a new chord there too so there would be no need to reverse at Halkirk to get to Wick.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Typical deluded railway fantasist, the fundamental FACT is road is the main form of transport in this country. I suspect the costs of such as Whitby and the Bentham are outrageous compared to the benefit they give, time for Beeching 2 in view and get rid of some these railway money cesspits.

I'm sorry, but have you ever even used the lines? They are all well patronised and serve communities that need them. Whitby's only rail service is always well used. So is the Bentham. The Far North gets a lot of passengers, I remember being on the semi-express southbound on a Saturday morning and the train being full south of Tain. How can you justify closing these lifeline services?

Railways aren't just for nostalgia, hardly in my view. They are for getting people from A to B. We are not deluded fantasists, because we use them regularly. Sometimes they aren't run as well as we like, and we complain about it. But never do we take the view that they need to go.

Clearly, you're not as much as a Jeremy Clarkson as you'd like to be, because you know about these railways and that they exist. But I say, go and live in Bentham or Lairg and see how life would be without these vital links. Go and ask the people of Whitby how they'd feel if they no longer had any rail links.

Roads may be important but, without the competition trains provide, it'd be a lot grimmer. And where there's not as much competition, such as Inverness-Thurso, there are other reasons to keep these railways open. Cutting them short would be a horrendously short-sighted move.

Beeching itself was beyond drastic. If it had all gone ahead, Wales would only have one railway line, and no line from London to Leicester. No railways further north than Aberdeen, or west of Plymouth. Sunderland, Middlesborough, Blackpool, Barrow, Inverness, all these places without trains.

What are you doing on a railway forum, if you insult the members and get rid of something that would hurt a lot of the nation?

I believe someone needs their membership reviewed.
 
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341o2

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And don't forget that car parking in St Ives isn't exactly convenient. The only large car park is at the top of the hill, served by a minibus link down into town which stops running at a ridiculously early hour.
Anyone who has gone into St Ives on a Summer sunny Saturday by car will appreciate the fact that the railway takes quite a lot of traffic off the road, without it the roads would be horrendous.

visitors to St Ives by car are advised that there is limited parking in town and with the ensuing congestion better to use the park and ride service provided by the railway and leave the car at Lelant Saltings. This was introduced in 1978.

Trenwith car park as mentioned is the only rally large one (759 spaces) the others are as follows

Park Avenue - long stay - 77 spaces. TR26 1QE
Railway Station - long stay - 106 spaces. TR26 2BH
Porthmeor Beach - short stay - 45 spaces. TR26 1JU
Barnoon - long stay - 154 spaces. TR26 1JD
The Island - long stay - 155 spaces TR26 1SY
Smeaton's Pier - short stay - 31 spaces. TR26 1PS
The Sloop - short stay - 42 spaces TR26 1LT
 

najaB

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I'd say this:

-More passing loops, particularly between Inverness and Beauly, Dingwall and Tain & Helmsdale and Georgemas.
As you may know, the Friends of the Far North Line advocate re-doubling and reinstating colour light signals as far as Clunes TEP. In an ideal world you would re-double as far as Dingwall but the replacement bridge(s) were only single track. Where do you suggest for passing loops? The intermediate TEP's are an easy option, but would they allow significant improvements to the timetable?
-A new station at Evanton, and another at Halkirk.
There's possibly the demand for a station at Evanton, but I'm not sure that Halkirk has a high enough demand unless it was replacing both Scotscalder and Georgemas Junction.
-Possible closures at Georgemas, Scotscalder, Kildonan, Culrain, Invershin and, I'm afraid, the beloved Altnabreac.
The cost of keeping these stations open must be minuscule, I can't see it being worth the effort.
-A Tain-Dornoch-Golspie branch to cut times to Thurso, and Inverness-Lairg local services. This would have to mean the closure of Rogart.
Apparently the opportunity was there when the Donarch Bridge was built, but the money/will wasn't. Supposedly the bridge was built with provision for a rail crossing, but I've no idea if this is fact or fantasy.
-A new junction after Halkirk station to reach Thurso without reversing, and a new chord there too so there would be no need to reverse at Halkirk to get to Wick.
There doesn't seem to be any topographical barrier to doing this, so it's just a matter of finding the will and the money.
 

railjock

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The railway is good at providing commuter services to our major towns and cities, and good links between major towns and cities but that doesn't mean we should have a railway that serves every tom dick and harry around the country, and yes if had been up to me I would have closed the S&C, and I wouldn't have reopened the line to Tweedbank, although no doubt I will take a trip on it when it reopens.

The Borders rail line will provide a commuter link to a major city unless you think Edinburgh doesn't count.
 

HSTEd

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Thats true for half of it - but it almost certainly wouldn't have gone all the way to Tweedbank if not for some good old pork-barrel spending.
 

backontrack

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As you may know, the Friends of the Far North Line advocate re-doubling and reinstating colour light signals as far as Clunes TEP. In an ideal world you would re-double as far as Dingwall but the replacement bridge(s) were only single track. Where do you suggest for passing loops?
Really, ^this^, but that probably won't happen. I'd suggest passing loops at Clunes and Bunchrew at least.

There's possibly the demand for a station at Evanton, but I'm not sure that Halkirk has a high enough demand unless it was replacing both Scotscalder and Georgemas Junction.

Halkirk would replace these stations.

The cost of keeping these stations open must be minuscule, I can't see it being worth the effort.

Really, it depends on how much time would be cut off if the trains passed through. I personally see no advantage to closing the station at Kinbrace, where the train does sometimes stop because it actually has some sort of settlement. You don't really get anything from closing these stations, so really it's a case of lowering the services actually timetabled to be able to be requested.

Apparently the opportunity was there when the Dornoch Bridge was built, but the money/will wasn't. Supposedly the bridge was built with provision for a rail crossing, but I've no idea if this is fact or fantasy.

There was a study fairly recently to see if people agreed with the proposal, and they did. It would take a fair amount of money to build but would help in the long run.

There doesn't seem to be any topographical barrier to doing this, so it's just a matter of finding the will and the money.

I don't really expect it to happen though, because it would be considered a bit minor considering the cost.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thats true for half of it - but it almost certainly wouldn't have gone all the way to Tweedbank if not for some good old pork-barrel spending.

It also serves the surrounding area - Melrose, Selkirk, at a pinch St Boswells - but most importantly Galashiels.
 

HSTEd

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If they built that huge proposed container port at Scapa Flow you might be able to make the case for a Pentland Firth rail/road crossing to replace the ferry and allow rail access to the terminal.

At which point the future of the Far North Line looks rather rosy.
 

backontrack

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The railway is good at providing commuter services to our major towns and cities, and good links between major towns and cities but that doesn't mean we should have a railway that serves every tom dick and harry around the country, and yes if had been up to me I would have closed the S&C, and I wouldn't have reopened the line to Tweedbank, although no doubt I will take a trip on it when it reopens.

Unless, of course, the Tom, Dick, Harry or Whitby it serves gets a decent amount of passengers.
 
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47802

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I'd say this:

-More passing loops, particularly between Inverness and Beauly, Dingwall and Tain & Helmsdale and Georgemas.

-A new station at Evanton, and another at Halkirk.

-Possible closures at Georgemas, Scotscalder, Kildonan, Culrain, Invershin and, I'm afraid, the beloved Altnabreac.

-A Tain-Dornoch-Golspie branch to cut times to Thurso, and Inverness-Lairg local services. This would have to mean the closure of Rogart.

-A new junction after Halkirk station to reach Thurso without reversing, and a new chord there too so there would be no need to reverse at Halkirk to get to Wick.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'm sorry, but have you ever even used the lines? They are all well patronised and serve communities that need them. Whitby's only rail service is always well used. So is the Bentham. The Far North gets a lot of passengers, I remember being on the semi-express southbound on a Saturday morning and the train being full south of Tain. How can you justify closing these lifeline services?

Railways aren't just for nostalgia, hardly in my view. They are for getting people from A to B. We are not deluded fantasists, because we use them regularly. Sometimes they aren't run as well as we like, and we complain about it. But never do we take the view that they need to go.

Clearly, you're not as much as a Jeremy Clarkson as you'd like to be, because you know about these railways and that they exist. But I say, go and live in Bentham or Lairg and see how life would be without these vital links. Go and ask the people of Whitby how they'd feel if they no longer had any rail links.

Roads may be important but, without the competition trains provide, it'd be a lot grimmer. And where there's not as much competition, such as Inverness-Thurso, there are other reasons to keep these railways open. Cutting them short would be a horrendously short-sighted move.

Beeching itself was beyond drastic. If it had all gone ahead, Wales would only have one railway line, and no line from London to Leicester. No railways further north than Aberdeen, or west of Plymouth. Sunderland, Middlesborough, Blackpool, Barrow, Inverness, all these places without trains.

What are you doing on a railway forum, if you insult the members and get rid of something that would hurt a lot of the nation?

I believe someone needs their membership reviewed.

You really are talking rubbish and no I wont be apologising to the railway fantasists

There are many communities which don't have rail service and never will have a rail service and that includes a few where the railway line passes right past their town but doesn't have a station, and they manage perfectly well, and if a railway line doesn't have a good cost benefit ratio then why should that service continue to run and be a burden on the taxpayer?

The Bentham route as I live in Yorkshire I have used that route a fair few times and at the time I have used its not been particularly full and the majority of people on seem to have been longer distance passengers like myself who could alternately use the copy pit and even the S&C instead

But of course you cannot make conclusions from casual trips that why there needs to be a proper assessment of the countries biggest loss makers, but politically closing lines is difficult as it brings out every railway fantasist and tree hugger etc. in the country, plus of course trying to close any railway line wouldn't look good at the moment when HS2 is being pushed through.
 
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najaB

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...and if a railway line doesn't have a good cost benefit ratio then why should that service continue to run and be a burden on the taxpayer?
Cost/benefit ratios are more appropriate when you are looking to build a new line. For an existing line it's more a question of if it runs at a profit or not. Barring any major expansion it doesn't really cost that much to keep an operational line running so even a lightly loaded train can make an operational profit.

Even if it runs at a loss, as long as that loss is smaller than the loss that the replacement bus service would make and it still makes sense to keep it running.
 
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Y Ddraig Coch

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I'm beginning to wish I'd never started this thread!
Meanwhile, just been on a train - intercity Virgin - which had about 20 on it, and it's been like that every time I've used it, save for big football games. 1840 Glasgow-Birmingham. AFAIK it's the last train back to England (beyond Carlisle)on a Saturday, dunno why it's doesn't carry on to Euston and possibly have more pax?
I'm glad it runs, it's invaluable, but isn't it a bit early to be the last train back to England (beyond Ca......) on a Saturday??



Just FYI there is a Saturday 20.08 Virgin Service to Crewe I have used a few times on a Saturday evening from Glasgow.
 

Bantamzen

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Typical deluded railway fantasist, the fundamental FACT is road is the main form of transport in this country. I suspect the costs of such as Whitby and the Bentham are outrageous compared to the benefit they give, time for Beeching 2 in view and get rid of some these railway money cesspits.

And have you seen some of the road network around the country? For example try driving into Leeds on workday. If Beeching had got his way both the Airedale & Wharfedale lines would have been shut. This would have ploughed tens of thousands more commuters onto the roads, and the already horrendous traffic congestion at pinch points like Guiseley or Shipley would be made even worse. This story could be replicated up and down the country.

Rather than lamenting lesser used routes the question you should be asking is what are the benefits of having them in place. You seem keen to see the S&C closed down, but the service not serves the local communities but brings in big economic benefits to them through tourism. The railways should be run for the benefit of the people that it operates through, not for some anonymous executives, accountants or shareholders. If you had your way and another Beeching style cull were to happen all you achieve would be even worse traffic conditions, and more lost productivity whilst people sat for hours in their cars. You'd also help make tourism more difficult, with more people having to rely on their cars to reach some of this country's finest destinations.

Frankly your postings make me even more certain than ever before that the system needs hauling out of the private sector and back into the public domain.
 

muddythefish

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To be fair its all academic anyway as none of the main political parties have got any bottle to contemplate any significant closures at present, the one thing I would say about reopening of lines, is that I'm not against a one off cost to fund the building of the line but beyond that once opened any new line should be able to cover its running costs, we should not be increasing the subsidy burden.



How about charging drivers every time they use the road ? And how about building into that charge the environmental damage they cause every time they turn on the engine ? Road economics are not what they seem - if drivers had to pay the true cost of motoring the roads would be alot less busy and the railways even much busier than they are at present.
 

Murph

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How about charging drivers every time they use the road ? And how about building into that charge the environmental damage they cause every time they turn on the engine ? Road economics are not what they seem - if drivers had to pay the true cost of motoring the roads would be alot less busy and the railways even much busier than they are at present.

Motorists are already charged automatically through the HUGE taxes on road fuels. It automatically adjusts to size of vehicle, efficiency of engine, amount of usage, style of driving, pretty much every reasonable criteria other than "punish the motorist arbitrarily".
 

yorksrob

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You really are talking rubbish and no I wont be apologising to the railway fantasists

There are many communities which don't have rail service and never will have a rail service and that includes a few where the railway line passes right past their town but doesn't have a station, and they manage perfectly well, and if a railway line doesn't have a good cost benefit ratio then why should that service continue to run and be a burden on the taxpayer?

The Bentham route as I live in Yorkshire I have used that route a fair few times and at the time I have used its not been particularly full and the majority of people on seem to have been longer distance passengers like myself who could alternately use the copy pit and even the S&C instead

But of course you cannot make conclusions from casual trips that why there needs to be a proper assessment of the countries biggest loss makers, but politically closing lines is difficult as it brings out every railway fantasist and tree hugger etc. in the country, plus of course trying to close any railway line wouldn't look good at the moment when HS2 is being pushed through.

Doubtless once you've closed the Bentham route, you'd probably close the S&C as "most people are on longer distance through journeys and could probably use the WCML or ECML".

You'll then go on degrading and degrading the network as few individual lines meet your fantasy criteria of what constitutes a cost effective route until everybody has to own a car, in spite of the fact that not everyone can afford road transport, and we haven't got the space or fuel for everyone to run a car anyway. We've heard it all before.

Better a tree hugger than a dinosaur.
 

HSTEd

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Calculations of the true cost of motoring are horrendously problematic due to the ludicrous values often assigned to various nebulous externalities such as climate change.
 

Murph

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Calculations of the true cost of motoring are horrendously problematic due to the ludicrous values often assigned to various nebulous externalities such as climate change.

And, on the other side of the debate, the direct cost of the railway is easy to calculate, but the true total benefits are hard to calculate and easy to ignore by someone who wants to fabricate a case for closing half the network.
 

HSTEd

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Of course if you electrified these lines you could probably push them into operational surplus.
Especially if you use old units like 315s and 314s to operate them.
 

muddythefish

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Motorists should be charged for road usage, and have to pay every month or quarter like a phone or electricity bill. Studies show road pricing would cut congestion and provide significant air quality and other benefits amounting to about £10bn to £12bn a year, which could be spent on public transport.
 

HSTEd

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Considering that the fuel duty and fuel VAT receipts obtained by the government exceed all reasonable calculation of the cost of the maintenance of the road network, will the introduction of road pricing be accompanied by a reduction in fuel duties?

Or are you just continuing the so called "war on the motorist"?
 

PermitToTravel

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Fuel duty is near enough a perfect tax. It's cheap to collect with next to no administration, almost impossible to avoid, penalises bad behaviour and rewards good. If it's desirable to increase the amount that motorists are taxed, there aren't really any arguments for doing it any way other than through fuel duty.
 

47802

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Motorists should be charged for road usage, and have to pay every month or quarter like a phone or electricity bill. Studies show road pricing would cut congestion and provide significant air quality and other benefits amounting to about £10bn to £12bn a year, which could be spent on public transport.

And how many millions of people are you going to penalise who are no where near a Railway station and even if they are have to make journeys that are not convenient or even possible by rail, the reality is rail is convenient for many millions but equally for many millions it isn't.
 

alexl92

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I'm a young adult, and when I move back into my parents' house in July I'm going to need a car because local bus operators have decided that the area, on the edge of a large city, doesn't need a reliable bus service and the nearest train station is 4 miles away.
With the exception of fuel prices which have recently dropped, if the cost of motoring gets any higher, I simply won't be able to afford a car, and the job opportunities will be hugely reduced because the number of places to which I can travel would be hugely reduced.

You can argue all you like that motorists should be taxed more but the fact is that public transport - railways or busses or whatever - cannot fulfil people's every need even with an unlimited budget. Taxing the motorist is absolutely necessary, but owning a car is now as expensive as it's been in a long time and making it more so to try and pour money into public transport wouldn't actually benefit most people.

If less cars automatically meant greater patronage of busses and trains, yes. But it doesn't!
 

muddythefish

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Considering that the fuel duty and fuel VAT receipts obtained by the government exceed all reasonable calculation of the cost of the maintenance of the road network, will the introduction of road pricing be accompanied by a reduction in fuel duties?

Or are you just continuing the so called "war on the motorist"?

There is no "war on the motorist" and never has been.

The costs of motoring has not risen in real terms for 30 years.

Rail fares meanwhile ....
 

HSTEd

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On the continent, every city of over ~500,000 seems to have a full blown metro, let alone a tram system.
 
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