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Tresspassing in an emergency

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ChrisCooper

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It's a complicated issue, not just when it comes to the railways but in general, as far as breaking the law in the attempt to preserve life goes. There is plenty of precedent to say it's OK in various circumstances though, for example no-one would think twice about prosecuting someone for breaking and entering if they did so in an emergeny. I think the law would mainly come into it if you did something that put other's lives at risk. The presedent there is people who break speed limits or run red lights whilst trying to get someone to the hospital. By doing so they are putting the person they are trying to save, themselves, and any other road user they might hit at risk. When it comes to personal risk, as has been said you shouldn't put yourself at risk in an attempt to save someone else, as not only are you risking your own life, but you're no use to them dead or injured either (infact depending on the circumstances you could divert resources from them and make things worse). This applies as much to professionals as ordinary members of the public, sometimes more so as they are far more valuble in an emergency.

In terms of the specific situation, I would say crossing the track would be a very bad idea. Not only are you putting yourself at risk (and since the fact that you would be doing it suggests you are the only person around, you're also putting the victim at risk because if you're dead who's going to help them?), but there is little point in it. In a circumstance like that the time for you to safely get to the person it not going to be crucial, and for most people there is little that they could do anyway. Calling the emergency services would be the best initial response, something that's hard to do when you're splatted across the front of a train.

Oviously there are other circumstances though. If the person had fallen onto the track, that's another matter. Their life is in imediate danger. Of cource if it's third rail, particularly if they are in contact with it, thats another matter entirely. Still even in those circumstances the best thing would be to attempt to get trains stopped. That would be exactly what either rail staff or emergency service workers would also do. Of cource people don't always think straight in those circumstances, and that's how dead heros are made. Really it's the sort of situation where old fasioned common sence is needed. Weighing up the benefit against the risk to yourself. Oviously many people would say that a significant risk or even sacrifice is worthwhile if it would save a number of people, or a loved one.
 
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the sniper

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Why not just go over the bridge or crossing point provided? It wouldn't take much longer, and in this instance it doesn't seem like you'd have to be there so quickly that crossing the track was necessary.

Even if there was no train in sight, you wouldn't have done your friend much of a favour had you tripped on the ballast or a rail and ended up injured or unconscious on the tracks...
 

O L Leigh

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It's not just the passing trains that pose huge dangers. It's what happens if you jump down from the platform and land awkwardly spraining an ankle (it might not look it, but it's a long old drop). You can't just clamber back up again or quickly nip along the platform to the ramp. And then suddenly you've got TWO casualties, one of whom is down on the track.

O L Leigh
 

142094

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Walking on ballast is hard enough with safety/rigger boots on in the first place, never mind normal shoes.
 

Flamingo

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The rulebook has just changed over rescue of casualties in electric-land (for those who don't need to know). It used to be do not attempt an emergency rescue unless no part of the casualty was within 3 feet of the live electricity, it has now changed to do not attempt an emergency rescue if any part of the casualty is within 9 feet of live electricity.
 

142094

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The rulebook has just changed over rescue of casualties in electric-land (for those who don't need to know). It used to be do not attempt an emergency rescue unless no part of the casualty was within 3 feet of the live electricity, it has now changed to do not attempt an emergency rescue if any part of the casualty is within 9 feet of live electricity.

We had the 1 metre rule to stay away from Overhead cables and suspected live downed cables. I certainly wouldn't be anywhere near a cable or 3rd rail until I knew for sure it was dead.
 

Urban Gateline

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I've never seen such a bunch of heartless people with lack of caring in my entire life! end of rant and thread!

Not heartless, would you rather have 2 injured people or possibly even a death, just because someone risked going onto the tracks to try and help the injured person and then injured themselves?!
 

I T S

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Use you're common sense and make sure you don't. Avoid tripping on rails and ballast. It's easily done. Im a human
 

wensley

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Not heartless, would you rather have 2 injured people or possibly even a death, just because someone risked going onto the tracks to try and help the injured person and then injured themselves?!

Exactly...this is a case of common sense, not bureaucracy, would you normally cross a live running line? ... Didn't think so. The danger is still there regardless of if someone is injured
 

O L Leigh

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Use you're common sense and make sure you don't. Avoid tripping on rails and ballast. It's easily done. Im a human

Use your commonsense and use the footbridge/crossing/subway. It will be as quick and you won't be at such great risk of injury yourself. Simple.

O L Leigh
 

transportphoto

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Removed, may reinstate later after some thinking. - Reinstated 2130:

Use you're common sense and make sure you don't. Avoid tripping on rails and ballast. It's easily done. Im a human

I'm a trained first aider, a human one too. I admit to only having skim read the thread however I would never ever consider jumping down on the tracks. As another member posts: DRAB - Danger, Response, Airway, Breathing. You can not do anything before you have done D, if you consider crossing a live railway, electricity or no electricity, I would be refusing treatment from you. First Aiders should know better, sorry, I wouldn't be trusting one part of your treatment.

I would be darting over the foot bridge, through the subway, over a authorized crossing, but never over the track. It may take me twenty times longer however I will get there, not mowed down by a train half way over.


Sorry.

TP
 
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12CSVT

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Further to that, and I wanted to keep this off board but , a senior offical of the TOC was in attendance and did not come near the situation at any time.... Uk Rail business of the year they call themselves!

Makes no difference if (s)he was MD of the TOC. If they haven't got PTS they are not allowed on the track - full stop.

Furthermore it is clearly stated in the railway rule book that you always put your own safety first.
 

notadriver

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The end of platforms usually have a "Do not pass this point" sign. If a member of the public needed to go past this point for their own reasons but were blocked by staff, could the staff be reported to the police?
 

wensley

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It's surprising how far it is from cess to platform...not as easy as it looks ;)
Even if you have PTS you need a valid reason to be on or about the line, fair enough you may access the track in an emergency without PTS but if there is another means of crossing the line then that defence is gone
 

Urban Gateline

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The end of platforms usually have a "Do not pass this point" sign. If a member of the public needed to go past this point for their own reasons but were blocked by staff, could the staff be reported to the police?

Reported for what? Caring about that member of the public's safety?

It depends what their "own reasons" for going past the point would be.
 

Flamingo

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The end of platforms usually have a "Do not pass this point" sign. If a member of the public needed to go past this point for their own reasons but were blocked by staff, could the staff be reported to the police?

Well, the member of the public certainly could be reported to the police for trespass on the railway, the member of staff would have several defences, from preventing a crime from being committed (trespass on the railway) to acting to prevent the member of public placing themselves in danger.
 

wensley

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I am yet to hear a good reason why a non-qualified person should be on or about the line....

Have seen people picking blackberries at Northallerton once....interesting on a 125mph, electrified railway.
 

Maxfly

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Use you're common sense and make sure you don't. Avoid tripping on rails and ballast. It's easily done. Im a human

Obviously you lack common sense I'm afraid , have you actually walked on ballast? Believe me it is not great for trudging along so apply the common sense you claim to have and find a safe crossing place so you can actually be definately of use as a first aider
 

O L Leigh

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It's not even about PTS competence. As someone who holds PTS certification I am not allowed to wander around the railway willy-nilly. I'm supposed to stick to authorised walking routes and am actually only allowed to venture out trackside when my duties require it. When it comes to crossing the line I would be expected to use an authorised crossing point if one is available (e.g. passenger footbridge/subway/crossing, etc) and only cross the line directly if no such facilities exist. Therefore I would not be expected to cross from platform to platform by cutting straight across the tracks, and if I did I would be likely to get my backside kicked.

In a station there really is no excuse, and certainly the scenario the OP reports is no justification. The rules are there to protect staff and passengers. Cutting across the tracks is more risky than using a footbridge which is why it is not permitted. The hoary old chestnut of an excuse that "it's OK because I've got commonsense" just doesn't wash.

Don't get down there and don't put yourself at risk. In most locations it's probably just as fast to use an authorised crossing point than to take the direct route.

O L Leigh
 

wensley

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Aye, heads have come close to rolling in my experience over PTS holders being a little naughty! As the rulebook says, access in line with duties etc etc
Sad as it may seem common sense can't always come first - jobs and, more importantly, lives may be at stake
 

O L Leigh

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The reason is because "commonsense" cannot be assumed. In my experience there is no such thing. People have to be told on the assumption that they know nothing and are unaware of the risks.

But this applies to staff as well. Even PTS holders have got things wrong and lost their lives because of it.

O L Leigh
 

I T S

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The first few minutes are important in a situation like this. Lying on your back, vomiting...

Here its ok, I'll take the long way and "Walk" as some refer to it.....
 

wensley

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The reason is because "commonsense" cannot be assumed. In my experience there is no such thing. People have to be told on the assumption that they know nothing and are unaware of the risks.

But this applies to staff as well. Even PTS holders have got things wrong and lost their lives because of it.

O L Leigh

Sadly it doesn't take much for things to go very wrong very quickly :(
At the end of the day the railway is a dangerous environment, designed for trains, not people, the risks are the same to both the staff and the public. However, the staff are trained to minimise those risks.
 

O L Leigh

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The first few minutes are important in a situation like this. Lying on your back, vomiting...

Granted.

However, was he on his own? Was it possible there was another first aider closer to him? How long would it actually have taken to get to your friend using an authorised crossing point rather than taking the riskier short-cut?

You asked a question and we've answered it. No, there is almost no justification for a member of the public to cut across the line between platforms. Compared with using an authorised crossing point the risks are too high. As I suggested before, you're no use if you've sprained your ankle jumping down onto the track and are now unable to reach your friend.

Actually, what you've said now about your sense of urgency makes me even more concerned. If you're a first aider (are you...?) you need to keep a cool head and make good, safe decisions. Your duty is to the casualty, so it's no good putting yourself at risk in your haste to give aid.

O L Leigh
 

the sniper

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The end of platforms usually have a "Do not pass this point" sign. If a member of the public needed to go past this point for their own reasons but were blocked by staff, could the staff be reported to the police?

For what? The trespasser could have the nerve to try and report the member of staff for 'assaulting them' if they were physically blocked by them, but they wouldn't get far with that.

U forgot something!

You're own two feet

I've got two feet, but I've also ended up on my backside after slipping on a wet sleeper. I wasn't even rushing like you would have been in your scenario, I merely stepped on it. And yes, I'm PTS competent.
 
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