Transport Officer pulled me aside.

[xerokae]

what if I took a video on several days, first recording the date and time that is displayed at the train station then an uncut video to the tunnel ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Showing its a regular occurrence, and if its an uncut video from showing the date/time in the train station to the tunnel ? Hopefully its not too long.

 

[SickyNicky]

I have to say that in my experience the tunnel is never blocked. I tend to go that way when changing trains there because it's easier/quieter than via the main ramp.

 

[xerokae]

Thank you

 

[extendedpaul]

OP stated this happened on 11 September. Seems a very long time for any form of letter to be sent ?

 

[Darandio]

OP stated this happened on 11 September. Seems a very long time for any form of letter to be sent ?

Not really, a month is practically nothing compared to how long it can take.

 

[xerokae]

Oh no, sorry I meant 11th October, as in yesterday. Sorry for the confusion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But wait ? it can take over a month for the letter to come ? I thought this kinda thing would be really quick....

This is going to eat away at me for a long time >.>

I just want to be reassured that the evidence I said I could give, would help in my defence.

Thanks

 

[GadgetMan]

Oh no, sorry I meant 11th October, as in yesterday. Sorry for the confusion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But wait ? it can take over a month for the letter to come ? I thought this kinda thing would be really quick....

This is going to eat away at me for a long time >.>

I just want to be reassured that the evidence I said I could give, would help in my defence.

Thanks

It can easily take 8 weeks or even longer before they contact you. Depends on how quickly the report is submitted by the member of staff who questioned you and the workload the office is under.

I work on board trains and it sometimes takes me 3 or 4 weeks just to find the time/energy to write the report up and submit it. Then the revenue/prosecution department have to process it.

You'll have to be patient as there's nothing productive you can do other than wait.

 

[xerokae]

Thanks again.

 

[Ferret]

My twopenneth worth - a lot will depend on the report submitted by the revenue inspector. If he mentions that you tried to get past him, then they may try for the more serious Regulation of Railways Act offence which carries a criminal record. Without CCTV evidence of that though, it may be difficult to prove, so my money is on them looking at a Byelaw 18. This is the so called 'strict liability' offence of not showing a valid ticket. That doesn't carry a criminal record, but will still lighten your wallet considerably.

As others have said, wait for the letter and see what comes.

 

[martinsh]

Arriving 1 minute before the train is due to depart is cutting it a bit fine to say the least

Not at all, I do it all the time ! :roll:

Mind you I do always have a ticket already, and can more or less guarantee my train is going to be a couple of minutes late...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have to say that in my experience the tunnel is never blocked. I tend to go that way when changing trains there because it's easier/quieter than via the main ramp.

My experience too

 

[xerokae]

Mod Note: We're always happy to re-open old threads when there are new, significant, developments. Just let us know! As such I've merged the threads.

I have now received the letter from Northern Rail and will just type out the whole letter.

Dear Mr Surname

This office acts as the prosecuting authority for northern rail limited. The company has a policy of zero tolerance in the matters of fare evasion and anti social behaviour.

On the 11 October 2012 you were spoken to by an authorised member of staff at Preston railway station with regards to an incident of : the non-payment of a rail fare. Before the company proceeds further with its investigation in respect of this matter, we would like to give you the opportunity of responding with your explanation of concerning it. Please complete the bottom section of this letter and if you wish to make any comments, please do so on the reverse.

As you will appreciate, this is a serious incident: therefore it is imperative that you do not hesitate in contacting the Unit as soon as possible to ascertain the full facts in this matter. Failure to respond to this reasonable request or provide a satisfactory explanation with regards to this incident will result in legal action being taken (*Regulation of railway act and Railway byelaws apply). I must inform you that should legal proceedings be invoked, in addition to any fines imposed by the court there will be an application for £150 as contribution to our costs. Offences of this nature are recordable and should be convicted you will receive a criminal record.

Now just to go over what happened.

I got dropped off at Bolton train station's car park, this is very rare, I usually walk it. But anyhow when you enter the station through the car park, you get straight onto platform 4 and that entrance is not manned, this is also the platform my train arrives on.

And as I got on to the platform the train was about to arrive in 1-2 minutes, therefore I decided I would just get on the train and buy the ticket from the officer that comes round. Since if I had walked from where I came in, all the way across the platform and back to the front entrance and bought the ticket from there and came back, I would have surely missed the train(and been late for uni).

Also at the time(11th October) I actually wasn't aware you needed to buy the ticket before boarding the train, since I have seen many people from Bolton buy tickets once they have boarded the train. I release after making my last thread that this is wrong.

So hoping to buy the ticket on the train, I didn't get the opportunity to do so, so when I arrived at Preston, I got off at platform 2, which is normal. So at this point I know I have to walk over the bridge to get onto platform 3-4 where the main entrance/exit is for the station, and also knowing that at this time of day the bridge is manned.

Also I should mention I have never had to buy a ticket at end of my journey since these circumstances have never occurred in the past.

So as I walked over the bridge, I took out my rail card hoping to buy a return ticket, and as I got closer I decided to start taking my wallet out as well, at this point I was mid way through 5-6 officers, the frontal officers were busy checking tickets, there were officers on both sides, but I was walking on the right hand side. I noticed the officers further back weren't so occupied, therefore I chose to head for them.

As I did so, an officer on my left called out "I can't see that clearly", so I looked over and realised he was actually talking to me, so I went over, before I could say/ask anything, he asked me "what do I have there ?", I replied "my rail card". So he looks at it and asks "Do you have ID?"....Now this is all sudden, and I'm not quite sure what is going on. But now that I have thought about it, what must've made him jumped to asking for my ID was because he thought I was "fair dodging" as I had a previous purchased ticket inside my rail card pouch(has 3 slots).

Before I go on, I would just like to say that I have always had old tickets in my rail card pouch that I have not yet thrown away/left lying around my desk, but on top of that, the ticket inside was very old, it was actually from September.... Where as I have(and still have as proof) 2 very recent tickets much much closer to 11th October, one on the 9th of October, and one on the 6th.

So what I am saying is, my intention was to buy a ticket, and if I was ticket dodging, surely I would have at least tried it with a ticket from the same month ?

But anyhow, since I was shocked as to what was going on, I didn't argue, gave him my drivers licence, he took down my details, never asked or said anything till he verified my address and name, then said "you will get a letter in the post, where you will explain why you were trying to use this(holding my rail card) to get past. I said "I wasn't" but he never even replied, so then I asked "So can I buy a ticket then or not ?", he said "No, that will all be sorted by the prosecution agency", then he gave back my drivers licence while saying "here... this is yours... but I will be keeping this(holding my rail card)".

So at this point it was obvious I had no chance of trying to refute anything he was accusing me of, and I walked away since I was getting late for university, as I stated earlier the whole reason I got the train I did, is so I wouldn't be late and didn't think it was mandatory to buy one before boarding.

Okay so before I finish off, one last thing, I know for a fact that there is a tunnel linking the platforms, not just the bridges. And they are never manned.
If I had no intention of buying a ticket, then I would have used those tunnels.
I have confirmed with people on the forums that those tunnels are never manned in their experience. But I have never seen the need to use them though.

Okay so that is my explanation of what happened, now the reason I am writing this is to ask for advice, what else should I do ?
What else should I look out for ?
I am planning on sending copies of those tickets I have still from 9th an the 6th of October, i can also take pictures of those tunnels around the same day/time as the incident, and send those if required.

But I would just like some advice on how I should reply to this letter, what to say, what not to say to give me the best chance of resolving this outside court.

I am aware now that buying a ticket before boarding is mandatory, and that since I boarded a train from a station that has facilities to buy tickets, even though I entered through the car park(which is not manned), that I am in trouble anyway, I did not know that at the time, but after my last thread, I am aware of what I did wrong.

But apart from that, I had no intention of ticket dodging, or fare evading, and I have some proof to back me up on that(the tickets + tunnels).

So help me out, what is the worse that can happen in this situation, what can I do to avoid the worse of it and so on, how should I reply.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Wath Yard]

I don't think the 'didn't want to be late' argument is going to get you very far, for both the obvious reasons, and the fact there are 4 tph from Bolton - Preston, with one just 8 minutes after the service you caught.

I would also be wary about bringing up the fact the subway doesn't usually have staff checking tickets. It's fairly common knowledge to people who use Preston regularly that is the case, but using it as an argument when you get caught without a ticket, and allegedly trying to pass off an old ticket, just looks like it might be another ruse you've used in the past.

It is probably better to concentrate on your actual actions and behaviour, rather than the actions you didn't take.

 

[snail]

Okay so before I finish off, one last thing, I know for a fact that there is a tunnel linking the platforms, not just the bridges. And they are never manned.
If I had no intention of buying a ticket, then I would have used those tunnels.
I have confirmed with people on the forums that those tunnels are never manned in their experience.

You have confirmed it with lucky people them. I regularly use the subway and have seen ticket checks at the the ramp to platforms 3/4 on more than one occasion. Not very often I admit, but it does happen.

It's pretty irrelevant anyway. Admitting to Northern that you know how to bypass ticket checks if you need to is not going to help your case one bit. If anything it could make things worse.

You need to be clear, concise and not make any accusations in your response. From what you have said, it sounds like the RPI thought you were trying to pass your folded railcard wallet as a ticket. Simply tell them this was not your intention, that you are very sorry for not going to the ticket office at Bolton (again, not passing it is no excuse) or for seeking out the conductor on the train.

I'm surprised you didn't get chance to buy on the train. TPE conductors are pretty good at going through the train between Bolton and Preston. Were you on a 6-car train?

 

[xerokae]

Ok thanks for telling me not to say about the tunnels, and yes I think it was the 6 car train, it was early in the morning, when its really really packed out, when people are stood everywhere, all along the train, and there isn't much space to walk.

 

[Chapeltom]

I once used the subway at Preston for a legitimate reason (getting from a TPE service to a Windermere one at the other side of the station) and I was stopped by the guard on the train I'd just got off who asked me for my ticket before he'd let me use the subway.

Now I was a bit bemused, (especially I'd not slept the night before and had travelled 250 miles, it was only 10am!) so I initially ignored him attempting to by pass him, wondering why he was doing it. Repeated his request to see my ticket, (I had a ticket of course) I apologized, showed it him and carried on. It later clicked that it was a way for fare dodgers to get out the station. Now why don't they use man the subway as well then?

 

[Hellfire]

I have been using Preston station for more than a year and I have never seen any attempt by staff to check the tickets of passengers alighting from a train. I use both the bridge and the tunnel depending on what carriage I am travelling on. I always have a ticket BTW

I come into Preston on Virgin from Euston. Is there an assumption that passengers from London will already have been checked either on entering the platform at Euston or by the TM? Do RPIs only target local trains at Preston

 

[snail]

Now why don't they use man the subway as well then?

It's not that well used, so probably not cost effective in terms of the number of people that would be 'caught' compared to the cost of paying RPIs. The random checks will weed out the regular offenders eventually.

 

[cuccir]

Reply with facts and apologies. Your reply will influence whether Northern want to prosecute and if so, under what legislation.

State clearly what happened. Reaffirm your intention to purchase a ticket throughout, and state that you're now aware of your obligations. Don't say more than you have to though - you don't want to incriminate yourself too far. At this stage you might offer to pay the full fare plus any costs that Northern have incurred in investigating this matter.

 

[snail]

Do RPIs only target local trains at Preston

Generally, yes. G4S man the overbridge to platforms 1/2 on behalf of Northern. RPIs do perform random blocks at the Fishergate Centre entrance and occasionally Virgin will block near the ticket office and the subway ramp.

This will all change once the new WCML franchise is sorted and barriers are installed.

 

[xerokae]

Thanks again for the advice, appreciated

 

[VauxhallandI]

I think the relevance of mentioning the tunnels is that the OP was actively trying to pay for his ticket therefore from previous experience of the tunnel he knew that ere wouldn't be an opportunity to pay for his ticket by going that way.

He therefore went over the bridge where he could see somewhere to pay for his ticket.

 

[snail]

I think the relevance of mentioning the tunnels is that the OP was actively trying to pay for his ticket therefore from previous experience of the tunnel he knew that ere wouldn't be an opportunity to pay for his ticket by going that way.

*We* know that, but if you are being accused by an RPI of passing off a railcard as your ticket then admitting you know other ways of avoiding being checked doesn't exactly help your case.

 

[VauxhallandI]

*We* know that, but if you are being accused by an RPI of passing off a railcard as your ticket then admitting you know other ways of avoiding being checked doesn't exactly help your case.

I see.

Not cynical enough here in sunny Herts!

 

[xerokae]

Ok so this is the explanation I have typed out, which I will use to reply to their letter.

This is my explanation of the events on 11th October.
I got dropped off at Bolton train station's car park, this is very rare, I usually walk it. When you enter the station through the car park, you get straight onto platform 4 and that entrance is not manned, this is also the platform my train arrives on.

And as I got on to the platform the train was about to arrive in 1-2 minutes, therefore I decided I would just get on the train and buy the ticket from the officer that comes round. Also at the time(11th October) I actually wasn't aware you needed to buy the ticket before boarding the train, since I have seen many people from Bolton buy tickets once they have boarded. I release after seeking advice that this is actually wrong, and I am sorry for not buying it beforehand.
Normally I would buy it at the station, but on this day if I had walked from where I came in, all the way across the platform and back to the front entrance and bought the ticket from there and came back, I would have surely missed the train (and been late for uni), and as I said earlier, I was not aware at the time that it was mandatory to buy a ticket before boarding.

So hoping to buy the ticket on the train, I didn't get the opportunity to do so, so when I arrived at Preston, I got off at platform 2, which is normal. So at this point I knew I had to walk over the bridge to get onto platform 3-4 where the main entrance/exit is for the station, and also knowing that at this time of day the bridge is manned, which was a good thing since now I thought I would be able to buy my ticket.

Also I should mention I have never had to buy a ticket from officers on the bridge in the past, as I have bought my tickets beforehand.

So as I walked over the bridge, I took out my rail card hoping to buy a return ticket, and as I got closer I decided to start taking my wallet out as well, at this point I was mid-way through 5-6 officers, the frontal officers were busy checking tickets, also there were officers on both sides, but I was walking on the right hand side. I noticed the officers further back weren't so occupied, therefore I chose to head for them, and so not to occupy their time longer than was needed, as I stated earlier I started to take out my wallet.

As I did so, an officer on my left called out "I can't see that clearly", so I looked over and realised he was actually talking to me, so I went over, before I could say/ask anything, he asked me "what do I have there ?", I replied "my rail card". So he looks at it and asks "Do you have ID?"....Now this is all sudden, and I'm not quite sure what is going on. But now that I have thought about it, what must've made him jumped to asking for my ID was because he thought I was "fair dodging" as I had a previous purchased ticket inside my rail card pouch (has 3 slots).

Before I go on, I would just like to state that I have always had old tickets in my rail card pouch that I have not yet thrown away since I have forgotten about them, but on top of that, the ticket inside was very old, it was actually from September.... Whereas I have (and still have as proof)…very recent tickets much closer to 11th October, one on the 9th of October, and another on the 6th.

So what I am saying is, my intention was to buy a ticket, and if I stupid enough to try and avoid paying the legitimate fair, surely I would have at least tried it with a ticket from the same month?

But anyhow, since at the time I was shocked as to what was going on, I didn't argue, gave him my driver’s licence, he took down my details, never asked or said anything till he verified my address and name, then said "you will get a letter in the post, where you will explain why you were trying to use this (holding my rail card)…to get past. I said "I wasn't" and tried to explain why I was not able to buy a ticket earlier, but he never even replied or seem to be listening, so then I asked "So can I buy a ticket then or not?", he said "No, that will all be sorted by the prosecution agency", then he gave back my driver’s licence while saying "here... this is yours... but I will be keeping this (holding my rail card)".

So at this point it was obvious I had no chance of trying to refute anything he was accusing me of, and I walked away since I was getting late for university, as I stated earlier the whole reason I got on the train I did, is so I wouldn't be late and didn't think it was mandatory to buy one before boarding.

Okay so that is my explanation of what happened.

I will attach a copy of the tickets I have still from 9th and the 6th of October showing I had bought tickets very recently, closer to 11th of October. Hopefully this will show that I buy tickets normally, and that I was not trying to pass off an older ticket which was not even from the same month as a way to avoid paying the required fair, because after all I was trying to purchase a ticket where possible and where I thought it was required.

I am aware NOW that buying a ticket before boarding is mandatory but AT THE TIME I didn’t, and that since I boarded a train without tickets, even though I entered through the car park (which is not manned), that I am in trouble, I did not know that at the time, but after seeking advice, I am aware of what I did wrong, I am sincerely sorry.
I am more than happy to pay for the fair that I was seeking to pay on 11th of October, and any other costs that have been spent on this investigation.

I had no intention of ticket dodging, or fare evading, and the tickets in the attachment will help verify that, it was just a case of misunderstanding of me taking out my wallet to pay but not me trying to use my rail card to avoid paying.
I am sorry again for all the trouble that this has caused.

Anything I should change, add or remove ?

 

[bb21]

Anything I should change, add or remove ?

Erm, too long. You need to keep things concise and stop rambling. Is there really any need to reiterate every bit of what happened on the day, as the RPI would have submitted an account of that anyway?

Keep to your main points. You were of the understanding that tickets could be bought on the train but now realised that your obligation is to buy tickets before boarding if possible. There was no opportunity on the train. When you went to pay the RPI on the bridge, you were mistaken as showing your Railcard to get through. Attach your old tickets if you wish, and apologise for the whole event.

 

[xerokae]

Would they not bother reading it otherwise ?

I was just trying to get my points across, and show I have put effort into replying to them for this serious matter.

 

[AntoniC]

As part of my job I read letters all of the time from organisations needing assistance paying their taxes.

The longer the letter the more bored I become and the harder it gets for me to absorb the info they are providing and for me to make a decision.

If its a short punchy letter with all the info I need to make a decision, the easier it is for me to make a decision.

(I would say that all letters are treated the same !).

I would recommend that you adopt KISS style of writing (Keep It Simple Stupid).

Hope this helps.

Would they not bother reading it otherwise ?

I was just trying to get my points across, and show I have put effort into replying to them for this serious matter.

 

[Wath Yard]

But it's actually quite difficult to understand, goes off on tangents and you repeat yourself needlessly on several occasions.

The aspect which could get you into the most trouble is the alleged attempt to pass off of an old ticket, or railcard as your ticket, and you really don't explain that part very clearly, it's only about 5% of the entire letter and gets lost in the waffle.

 

[snail]

What AntoniC said.

Some examples: Quoting your conversation with the RPI adds nothing to the account, it simply confirms you were stopped. They know that. Don't speculate, don't admit you know other means of avoiding the fare ("surely I would have at least tried it with a ticket from the same month").

You say twice you didn't realise at the time you needed to buy a ticket before boarding. Once is enough, adding that you now understand this and will make sure it does not happen again. What you have done or not done previously is of no relevance to this alleged offence. Neither are the actions of other passengers. If they want to take a chance boarding without a ticket it's still wrong but it's their problem and doesn't mitigate your actions.

PS Check your terminology and spelling: It's fare not fair. Trains have Conductors, not officers.

 

[island]

It is advisable for those offering corrections to themselves be correct. In that regard, trains have guards, not (in this area at least) conductors.