Transport Officer pulled me aside.

[xerokae]

Hey, on the 11th of september I used a train from Bolton to Preston, it was the 10:07 train departing from Bolton, going to Blackpool north.

I didn't have a ticket when I got to Preston, and the officer pulled me aside, took my details and said I'd get a letter which I have to reply to. Now it my sound cut and dry, but hear me out.

Bolton station is manned, but I was dropped off at the back entrance, the car park basically, that part of the station is not manned, and you get on to a platform directly once you enter, I arrived 1 minute before the train was about to depart, so instead of walking all the way across the platform and through the station to buy a ticket, basically walking all the way to the front entrance, I decided I would miss the train if I did so, since it would take 5-7 minutes to buy one, and thought I'd buy the ticket on the train when the transport officer would come by, since if I missed this train, and got the next one, then I would be late for university.

So as I was on the train, no transport officer came by, this doesn't happen often, not on this train I get at this time, some trains like the 8:59 one to Edinburgh, there is never a transport officer coming past on the train since its so busy.

So I thought well I'll just buy a ticket at the destination, I came off at platform two, where you have to walk over the bridge, and there were 3 or even 4 transport officers stood there, so I was like great I'll be able to buy one now, since if I had no intention to avoid buying a ticket, if I wanted to I could have used the underground tunnel, which is not manned, and for that I would have had to walk in the opposite direction after I came off the train, but that was not my intention, I only know this because I've heard it from others.

So I was walking over the bridge on the right hand side, took out my rail card to buy a ticket, had the rail card in my hand, then decided I might as well get out my wallet to pay, to not waste the time of one of the transport officers, so I temporarily folded my rail card to get out my wallet, and as I did so, a transport officer to me left that I had walked past, which I didn't notice, says "hey I can't see that properly" even though I was not walking on his side, but on the right hand side(where there were 2-3 more officers), so he pulls me over saying what I have there, I said my rail card, he asks me for any ID, I was like yeah sure, gave him my drivers licence.

He wrote some stuff down, and as he was doing so, I was like can I not buy a ticket since that's all i wanted to do? He doesn't reply or say anything, just ignores me, makes a call, verifies my address, then turns around and says, I'm going to take your rail card. He gives me back my licence, and says you'll get a letter in the post asking you why you were trying to get past without a ticket from northern rail prosecution something, but the thing is I was going to ask one of the officers on the right if I could buy one, and I hadn't even walked past the barricade of officers yet, there was like 2-3 on my right.

The only thing I see against me here is that my rail card pouch has old tickets in it, since sometimes I forget about them and they are left inside, since it has 3 pouches, but that was a really old ticket from a month back, and I have bought a lot more recent ones.

So my question is what should I reply to the letter ?

I haven't got it yet.

 

[bb21]

I would wait for the letter to arrive first, and yes, you need to reply to the letter. If you don't, since they have all your details, you will end up in serious trouble.

Running late for your train is not an acceptable excuse for not buying a ticket before boarding.

 

[xerokae]

Thanks for replying.

I just thought you were allowed to buy a ticket on the train.

 

[bb21]

Thanks for replying.

I just thought you were allowed to buy a ticket on the train.

Although this might be common practice in many areas, legally you should purchase a ticket before boarding unless there is no opportunity to do so at your origin station.

Have a look at previous threads with regards to possible prosecution while waiting. We have quite a few recently. You should get a better understanding of the system.

 

[Chapeltom]

Thanks for replying.

I just thought you were allowed to buy a ticket on the train.

Northern have for some time been very strict with regards to ticketless travel. Recently there has been a surge in posts on this forum from people being prosecuted or had details taken by Northern.

Whether or not you had any intention of buying a ticket, if you have boarded at a staffed station without a ticket, chances are if there is a revenue block (as always at Preston) then your likely to be in hot water. As I said, it is very strict and my advice is wait for the letter but if you are boarding at a station where there is facilities to buy one, buy a ticket before you board! Whether your late for Uni or not, better safe than sorry.

I'll add as a commuting student myself, I always attempt to get to Uni an hour before in case of delays. I do travel 2hr 30-3hr each way though, so if I was you I'd get to Bolton with the intention of getting to Preston 1/2hr before you need to! This to factor in delays and to buy a ticket!!

 

[GadgetMan]

So I was walking over the bridge on the right hand side, took out my rail card to buy a ticket, had the rail card in my hand, then decided I might as well get out my wallet to pay, to not waste the time of one of the transport officers, so I temporarily folded my rail card to get out my wallet, and as I did so, a transport officer to me left that I had walked past, which I didn't notice, says "hey I can't see that properly" even though I was not walking on his side, but on the right hand side(where there were 2-3 more officers), so he pulls me over saying what I have there, I said my rail card, he asks me for any ID, I was like yeah sure, gave him my drivers licence.

From reading the above, if I was in the shoes of the RPI I would interpret that behavior as being from someone who knows exactly what was going on and flashing a Railcard with an Old ticket to get by the revenue Block. Whether this was your intention or not is only known by you.

Otherwise I would expect you to have approached the RPI asking to purchase a ticket rather than walking past him and letting him chase/stop you.

 

[xerokae]

See the thing you didn't read is that i was walking towards a officer on my right hand side, since there was 3-4 in total. I hadn't walked past them yet, just the 1 guy on the left, who I never noticed was there.

 

[oversteer]

I don't get why you would fold a railcard, isn't it laminated?

And yep, you should have bought a ticket at Bolton. It doesn't matter if nobody was available on the train. I assume at that time of day Bolton has ticket machines and a ticket office open.

 

[xerokae]

Yeah is laminated, as I said I came through the car park entrance, since I was dropped off there, and I had arrived 1 minute before the train was about to depart, if I were to walk through the whole station back to the front entrance, I would have missed my train, so I decided just to buy one on the train.... that was the idea. I can understand being late for the train is not a good enough excuse. But it was not intentional as I didn't know you had to and have to buy a ticket before boarding, as I thought it was normal to buy it on the train aswel.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I was walking on the right hand side of the bridge, where there was more officers, 2 or 3, and there was 1 on the left which I hadn't noticed.

 

[Chapeltom]

Yeah is laminated, as I said I came through the car park entrance, since I was dropped off there, and I had arrived 1 minute before the train was about to depart, if I were to walk through the whole station back to the front entrance, I would have missed my train, so I decided just to buy one on the train.... that was the idea. I can understand being late for the train is not a good enough excuse. But it was not intentional as I didn't know you had to and have to buy a ticket before boarding, as I thought it was normal to buy it on the train aswel.

Getting on board and paying on the train is something people have become used to with Northern. Unfortunately for you, they are cracking down on it unless you board at a station without facilities to do so.

I'd wait for the letter because there's not really much more advice we can give.

 

[bb21]

I was walking on the right hand side of the bridge, where there was more officers, 2 or 3, and there was 1 on the left which I hadn't noticed.

While we may be able to offer sympathy, as GadgetMan has pointed out, walking past an RPI in the manner you described can very easily be misinterpreted as those typical of a fare-evader, whether you noticed his presence or not is of no relevance here really.

Unfortunately Northern appear to have been cracking down very hard recently so it could end up being a very costly mistake for you.

 

[xerokae]

I understand, but I was walking on the right hand side, to the officers to the right, avoiding no one.

If I wanted to really avoid the officers I told you guys, I would have used the underground tunnel at preston, since they are not manned, so as you can see I had no intention.

 

[xerokae]

I understand I'm in trouble since I didn't have a ticket before I boarded the train, but what is the worse thing if I am not charged with ticket evading. But just not having a valid ticket ?

Not sure how this stuff works.

I had all the intention to buy a ticket, as I've explained, and no intention to ticket dodge, but obviously I'm in trouble for not having a ticket in the first place, so what can I expect ?

 

[GadgetMan]

I understand I'm in trouble since I didn't have a ticket before I boarded the train, but what is the worse thing if I am not charged with ticket evading. But just not having a valid ticket ?

Not sure how this stuff works.

I had all the intention to buy a ticket, as I've explained, and no intention to ticket dodge, but obviously I'm in trouble for not having a ticket in the first place, so what can I expect ?

If it is a first offence on the railway then you may be able to settle the matter out of court by offering the train company an apology and paying them the fare due along with any costs they have incurred processing the case. They don't have to settle out of court but often will.

The other option is for them to take you to court, however there is no point speculating on the outcome just yet as it's best to wait for the letter to arrive and see what it says.

 

[xerokae]

Thank you, appreciated

I don't mind paying the fare and a fee, but its not fair if I get charged with ticket dodging and get a massive fine and a criminal record, that is just not fair

At least now I know I must have to buy a ticket before boarding the train, and that is compulsory, so that confusing is out of the way, thanks guys, I'll bump this thread when I received the letter, thanks for shedding some light on the matter,

 

[bb21]

I understand, but I was walking on the right hand side, to the officers to the right, avoiding no one.

If I wanted to really avoid the officers I told you guys, I would have used the underground tunnel at preston, since they are not manned, so as you can see I had no intention.

As I said before, it does not matter whether you were walking on the left-hand side of the bridge or the right-hand side. The overbridge at Preston is not that wide and the matter of the fact is that you walked past an RPI. We can sympathise with your situation however at the end of the day it is the facts that matter most. You must realise this and stop arguing for the sake of it.

What is likely to happen is that Northern will write to you, initially asking you for your version of the events that day. They will then decide what to do based on the evidence that you have. I suggest that you come back for advice when you receive that letter as it is very easy to incriminate yourself accidentally in your reply.

The worst that can happen is a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution which will result in a criminal record if convicted, however that requires intent to avoid paying the correct fare to be established and is used quite rarely. Alternatively you could be prosecuted under the Railway Byelaws which do not result in a criminal record if convicted, however you will still be looking at a fine of a three-digit figure. These are the worst case scenarios as you have requested.

 

[34D]

I had all the intention to buy a ticket, as I've explained, and no intention to ticket dodge, but obviously I'm in trouble for not having a ticket in the first place, so what can I expect ?

Best case: charges dropped
Mid case: out of court settlement for £100-200
Worst case: guilty conviction and £1000 fine

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know if it makes any difference but the train described was a TPE service. TPE services have automated announcements referring to needing to buy a full price ticket if you walked past ticket selling facilities and didn't buy a ticket. If they said that via an automated announcement and the guard didn't appear to offer to sell the full priced ticket, can't the passenger claim he/she was told by TPE (the provider) that they would be able to pay the peak non-railcard discounted fare but wasn't offered that opportunity?

 

[Roylang]

Best case: charges dropped
Mid case: out of court settlement for £100-200
Worst case: guilty conviction and £1000 fine

Not sure that you can have a not guilty conviction

Seriously, for the OP the key point here is that the worst case is a criminal conviction and the criminal record that goes wth that. If action is taken, work hard to settle out of court. Whatever it costs you it is better than the worst case.

Roy

 

[tony6499]

Arriving 1 minute before the train is due to depart is cutting it a bit fine to say the least

 

[xerokae]

I am not arguing for the sake of it.

All I am doing is showing there was no reason for me to ticket dodge.

That I was not ticket dodging while I was walking across the bridge, I am just giving reasons as to why I had no intention of ticket dodging.

Like how if I wanted to, I could have used the underground tunnel at the station, which is not manned, that if I wanted to, I would have at least try to show a recently purchased ticket from the same month/week, rather than a ticket that is months old.

I am asking if showing I wasn't trying to dodge the fare, with facts, with proof, then wouldn't that help me ?

Because I have recently purchased tickets lying around on my bedroom floor, more recent than the one that was in my rail card pouch, and I can easily get proof showing there is no officer manning the underground tunnel, showing that if I wanted to ticket dodge, I could have done other things, than try to walk past 4 officers on the bridge, doesn't that count for something ?

 

[Searle]

Arriving 1 minute before the train is due to depart is cutting it a bit fine to say the least

I'd be surprised if the OP decided to cut it that fine!

 

[xerokae]

And I hadn't walk past the barricade of officers, and the station I was departing from, I hadn't walked past a facility to allow me to buy a ticket, and on the train I didn't get the opportunity to buy a ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The overbridge at Preston is not that wide and the matter of the fact is that you walked past an RPI.

There were 3-4 officers on the bridge, they were spread out quite a bit, are you saying I would have to show my ticket to each and everyone ?

 

[northwichcat]

A RPI should ask to see tickets, they shouldn't just assume because they are in uniform that people will show them their tickets. I've seen people show tickets to dis-interested drivers and guards who are due to take over a unit from another crew because they are in rail uniform.

The G4S contracted RPIs used to wear florescent jackets bearing a security company name so looked a lot less like ticket inspectors and a lot more like crowd control.

 

[xerokae]

A RPI should ask to see tickets, they shouldn't just assume because they are in uniform that people will show them their tickets.

So your saying that they can't use me walking past a officer on the left side of the bridge which I didn't notice, since so many people were going across, and hadn't yet got to the officer I was actually seeking out against me to prove I was ticket dodging ?

 

[northwichcat]

So your saying that they can't use me walking past a officer on the left side of the bridge which I didn't notice, since so many people were going across, and hadn't yet got to the officer I was actually seeking out against me to prove I was ticket dodging ?

I'm not saying what they can and can't use in their defence but I'm saying they can't assume just because they standing there in an appropriate uniform that all passengers should be aware that they are ticket inspectors unless they say "Tickets please" or something similar.

Edit: The terminology you should use is 'fare dodging' otherwise any one in London who uses an Oyster card would be guilty of 'ticket dodging' if that were an offence.

 

[jon0844]

Like how if I wanted to, I could have used the underground tunnel at the station, which is not manned, that if I wanted to, I would have at least try to show a recently purchased ticket from the same month/week, rather than a ticket that is months old.

How are you so sure the tunnel is not manned? If there's a sting operation, I'd find it quite likely that they'd have blocked that off too.

How would you be able to prove it's never manned?

 

[northwichcat]

How are you so sure the tunnel is not manned? If there's a sting operation, I'd find it quite likely that they'd have blocked that off too.

How would you be able to prove it's never manned?

If it's G4S we're talking about they probably won't close the alternative exit off (unless it's right next to the exit they are standing by) but will keep an occasional eye out for anyone trying to enter/exit via the alternative route.

 

[xerokae]

I could take a time stamped photo or video of the tunnel not being manned.

 

[northwichcat]

I could take a time stamped photo or video of the tunnel not being manned.

I don't think that would stand up unless the evidence was provided on the same day as the alleged offence or ASAP afterwards. An incorrect time or date setting on your phone/camera would stamp the wrong date/time on the image.