Transport for Wales Class 230

[Peter Sarf]

A 220 on the Greenford Line is a bit excessive isn't it

No more excessive than on the Borderlands line .

I am getting an idea......

 

[childwallblues]

230008 has been out in service all day and was not swapped out at 1320. Is this the start of things to come?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

230008 has been out in service all day and was not swapped out at 1320. Is this the start of things to come?

If that be the case, what is the exact time period the 230008 has been in the possession of Transport for Wales?

 

[John R]

If that be the case, what is the exact time period the 230008 has been in the possession of Transport for Wales?

Your negativity on the subject has no bounds. There is no positive news on them that isn’t met by a similar comment from you. We cannot change the history of the units, and everyone is well aware of it, so I’m not sure you reminding us in such a negative manner is a particularly constructive contribution to the thread.

 

[WirralLine]

230008 has been out in service all day and was not swapped out at 1320. Is this the start of things to come?

230008 has had some genset modifications, they seem to be working well.

 

[Class15]

Your negativity on the subject has no bounds. There is no positive news on them that isn’t met by a similar comment from you. We cannot change the history of the units, and everyone is well aware of it, so I’m not sure you reminding us in such a negative manner is a particularly constructive contribution to the thread.

In my opinion he’s quite right to be sceptical. These units have failed multiple times now, so I really don’t think your response is entirely appropriate and fair.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

Your negativity on the subject has no bounds. There is no positive news on them that isn’t met by a similar comment from you. We cannot change the history of the units, and everyone is well aware of it, so I’m not sure you reminding us in such a negative manner is a particularly constructive contribution to the thread.

There is nothing positive to say about them really. They have cost a huge amount of money, multi millions and have caused massive disruption to a rural route that people rely on. Only for the 197s the route has been rescued. And still now after all this time there is only one working per day. The fact that one has stayed out says a lot that they can’t even have another one available to use to cover the other diagram, unless there was a problem at Birkenhead depot or with the crew so it had to stay in service.

 

[anthony263]

230008 has had some genset modifications, they seem to be working well.

Thought it was only 006 that's been done or are they all having it now ?

 

[WirralLine]

There is nothing positive to say about them really. They have cost a huge amount of money, multi millions and have caused massive disruption to a rural route that people rely on. Only for the 197s the route has been rescued. And still now after all this time there is only one working per day. The fact that one has stayed out says a lot that they can’t even have another one available to use to cover the other diagram, unless there was a problem at Birkenhead depot or with the crew so it had to stay in service.

As has been said many times before, they can't switch all the diagrams over to 230 overnight even if they are ready for use. They've not all had modifications yet anyway - and it interferes with crew diagrams as 197s come from Chester whereas 230s don't. One of the 197s which comes off the Bidston line works a service from Wrexham to Shrewsbury in the evening from platform 3. To bring another 1 or 2 230s in would require a complete overhaul of the timetables/diagrams by train planning.

Spotters aside - the general public do like the 230s overall. Always get comments on how nice "these new trains" are.

I also find it funny how people here are still banging on about 230s ruining the line - although recently they give no trouble and the 197s are the ones being a pain.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Your negativity on the subject has no bounds. There is no positive news on them that isn’t met by a similar comment from you. We cannot change the history of the units, and everyone is well aware of it, so I’m not sure you reminding us in such a negative manner is a particularly constructive contribution to the thread.

Regarding my "negativity", as you choose to call it, needs you to go back to the very first time that the Vivarail "Class 230" ever received mention on this particular website and whilst many at that time were convinced that whilst Shooter was at the helm, matters would proceed aided and abetted by the capital input from North America. Since the known capital spend on unit procurement coupled to budgeted labour and material cost analysis, I was at pains to point out that our consultancy from 1995 to 2004 was the project lead on a Canadian hydro project, with far greater capital involvement than the Vivarail project (I was in the position of Senior Head of Projects), so I was in a position to draw comparisons, which seemed to cause much angst amongst the Shooter acolytes on this website, so you are by no means the first to call me out.

The history of the Class 230 project since inception proved that what I made comment upon indeed did come to pass. I may well be 79 years of age, but to use an old fashioned term, "all my marbles are still at home"

 

[John R]

Just to be clear, I agree the programme has not been a success, and I’m sure TfW wish it had pursued a different approach. However, they are where they are, and to respond to any news of a minor step forward by reminding us of the history feels unnecessarily negative. We know the history, let’s try and move forward and hope that TfW does actually get the things working, without constantly sniping about the past.

 

[Lurcheroo]

230008 has been out in service all day and was not swapped out at 1320. Is this the start of things to come?

230008 has had some genset modifications, they seem to be working well.

Good to hear!

The history of the Class 230 project since inception proved that what I made comment upon indeed did come to pass.

That’s great and all but, unless your only point is “I was right all along” then it’s pretty irrelevant.

As @John R has said, we’ve been over what has been many a times, it’s been discussed that one of the big issues is they don’t do a full days work, we know that mids we’re going to happen, and now we’ve seen one do a full days work with the mods, that is progress. There is only 1 direction and that is forward. So I don’t think every time some progress gets reported we need to go back to hearing “I knew they wouldn’t work and I was right all along” from you each time.

There is nothing positive to say about them really. They have cost a huge amount of money, multi millions and have caused massive disruption to a rural route that people rely on. Only for the 197s the route has been rescued. And still now after all this time there is only one working per day. The fact that one has stayed out says a lot that they can’t even have another one available to use to cover the other diagram, unless there was a problem at Birkenhead depot or with the crew so it had to stay in service.

Of course there is, you just can’t accept the positives in the face of the negatives. 175’s causes Great issues last year, as did 197’s and now do 158’s. The 230’s problems are unique BUT having problems is not unique to the 230’s.
Based on how their introduction went, and the effort that went into restoring the service on this line from the mess it had become, I think TFW are probably right to have 1 in service do a full day before they look to up it to 2 a day in December.

I’ve no doubt you’d be the first here shouting if they had 2 out and something went wrong.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Just to be clear, I agree the programme has not been a success, and I’m sure TfW wish it had pursued a different approach. However, they are where they are, and to respond to any news of a minor step forward by reminding us of the history feels unnecessarily negative. We know the history, let’s try and move forward and hope that TfW does actually get the things working, without constantly sniping about the past.

Indeed! Regardless of what people think of the project overall, surely the fact that there appears to now be two units which are capable of completing a full day is a positive step?

Sure, a bit of "about time too" isn't exactly unwarranted. But for people to whine and moan about the inability of the units to reliably operate for a full day, then continue to whine and moan more when the units do operate for a full day is nothing short of ridiculous.

That said, there are clearly some people who would prefer disruption to every 230 operated journey just so that they can bask in some sort of perverse "I told you so" glory

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I honestly now believe that there are people who do not regard these particular units as purely mechanical objects but more of a treasured "friend of the family" with an unspecified ailment in which after a long period of convalescence, are showing the first sign of recovery....

If these same people had a washing machine or a cooker in their home that had had problems for a considerable time after purchase on which the manufactuer had ceased trading, would they still show the same acceptance of the problem as they appear to show towards the five Class 230 units purchased by Transport for Wales, but continue paying service engineers to constantly try to remedy matters?

I make no apologies for being a realist over the stance that I have always taken and applauded the correct "real life" option that was taken over the three Class 230 units that at one time were seen as ideal for the Marston Vale line.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2024 ==

Indeed! Regardless of what people think of the project overall, surely the fact that there appears to now be two units which are capable of completing a full day is a positive step?

Sure, a bit of "about time too" isn't exactly unwarranted. But for people to whine and moan about the inability of the units to reliably operate for a full day, then continue to whine and moan more when the units do operate for a full day is nothing short of ridiculous.

That said, there are clearly some people who would prefer disruption to every 230 operated journey just so that they can bask in some sort of perverse "I told you so" glory

Would you expect a company who had employed five employees, who at time of original engagement made no claims that they were not fully fit to perform the tasks of their employment, to happily accept the situation that then entailed. I speak as one who offered employment to a number of employees at the consultancy over a long period of time.

 

[3RDGEN]

If these same people had a washing machine or a cooker in their home that had had problems for a considerable time after purchase on which the manufactuer had ceased trading, would they still show the same acceptance of the problem as they appear to show towards the five Class 230 units purchased by Transport for Wales, but continue paying service engineers to constantly try to remedy matters?

Spot on, how many people have two or three cars on their drive just in case the others breakdown?

The fact is the unit ran approx. 350 miles without failing or been swapped out of service and people see that as a success after years of attempting to get them to work and the money wasted on them, its beggars’ belief. The original plan/promise, six years ago, was for four 230's running per day which they are still nowhere near to ever delivering.

 

[Purple Train]

Spot on, how many people have two or three cars on their drive just in case the others breakdown?

The fact is the unit ran approx. 350 miles without failing or been swapped out of service and people see that as a success after years of attempting to get them to work and the money wasted on them, its beggars’ belief. The original plan/promise, six years ago, was for four 230's running per day which they are still nowhere near to ever delivering.

I think there is a difference between a "success" (delivery of the project in full, as you rightly say) and a "positive step" (OK it's not great, but it is at least going in the right direction), and you are conflating the two. I think the introduction of the 230s has been a catalogue of errors and misunderstandings, but the fact that they are showing signs of improvement - albeit relatively slowly - is surely a good thing. To use a parallel example, I finally gained the ability to not fall off a bicycle about six years after my peers, and still to this day I am unable to safely cycle on roads or up hills. Nevertheless, my newfound ability was regarded as something of a triumph, because it was a step in the right direction. Hopefully the 230s do continue to improve, however, unlike my cycling!

 

[Lewisham2221]

If these same people had a washing machine or a cooker in their home that had had problems for a considerable time after purchase on which the manufactuer had ceased trading, would they still show the same acceptance of the problem as they appear to show towards the five Class 230 units purchased by Transport for Wales, but continue paying service engineers to constantly try to remedy matters?

Comparing an essentially bespoke product with a mass a produced, off-the-shelf one is a false equivalence. However, to humour you, if the options were:

• Continue to spend money to get the cooker right, but still being able to use it most of the time
• Scrap the cooker, but due to the lead time in obtaining a new one, go without any cooker at all for a couple of years
• Scrap the cooker, but sacrifice my central heating to provide the resources to obtain a new cooker

Then yes, I would probably keep spending the money to end up with a useable cooker.

Would you expect a company who had employed five employees, who at time of original engagement made no claims that they were not fully fit to perform the tasks of their employment, to happily accept the situation that then entailed. I speak as one who offered employment to a number of employees at the consultancy over a long period of time.

I honestly had no idea what you were waffling on about the first time you mentioned consultancy and Canadian hydro projects. I'm still none the wiser now. I'll just assume you think it would be a more efficient use of money to scrap the 230s, close the line and build a hydro electric damn in the Dee estuary or something.

which they are still nowhere near to ever delivering.

My maths GCSEs may be a few years behind me, but 2 units now able to operate all day, and a "promise" of 4 units a day, sounds like 50% - with progress still ongoing, so that claim is - at best - inaccurate .

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I honestly had no idea what you were waffling on about the first time you mentioned consultancy and Canadian hydro projects. I'm still none the wiser now. I'll just assume you think it would be a more efficient use of money to scrap the 230s, close the line and build a hydro electric damn in the Dee estuary or something.

I am far too wise and old to give credence to your personal assumption on what you assume the full implications which have been emboldened above. The three units that eventually lef the Marston Vale line were not scrapped.

I am absolutely amazed that you mention line closure, once again repeating the fact that just because the three units left the Marston Vale line, there was never any talk of closing that line and different traction will be brought in to replace the Class 230 units.

I really had to laugh out loud at your assumption that even if I was in such a position to oversee large projects, the mention of a hydro-electric damn (your very own wording) in the Dee estuary, is something that I would not associate myself with. Were you thinking of the oft-discussed Morecambe Bay project? My knowledge and expertise on the Canadian project saw the water flow rates governed by both the water amounts available and the geology and geography of the area in question, that was in the hands of noted profesatorial experts who were relied upon by the state governmental agencies.

 

[Mag_seven]

Discussion in this thread should be confined to what is actually happening with TfW Class 230s.

I've moved some speculative posts to this existing thread which has now been reopened:

Options for replacement of TfW Class 230s

I still think they'd serve purpose on lines where a 197 is too overkill like the borderlands and/or the conwy valley line since they have low passenger numbers and will also free up 197s that are needed elsewhere. The 230s could be amazing trains once overheating is resolved and the wheels...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[childwallblues]

There seems to be a lot of off topic subjects being discussed above.
My comment as I have stated previously is to congratulate the Stadler engineers at Birkenhead North EMU Depot for sorting the 230s out. Don't forget that for the previous forty years their expertise was was servicing and overhauling Class 507/508 units so to get them to the current situation where they are more reliable than the 197s is incredible.

 

[Invincible]

There seems to be a lot of off topic subjects being discussed above.
My comment as I have stated previously is to congratulate the Stadler engineers at Birkenhead North EMU Depot for sorting the 230s out. Don't forget that for the previous forty years their expertise was was servicing and overhauling Class 507/508 units so to get them to the current situation where they are more reliable than the 197s is incredible.

Talking to a car mechanic there has been a massive change in moving to basically computer controlled hybrid and electric operation meaning retraining and a new mindset in fault finding, the same is happening with trains

 

[CaergwrleKen]

There seems to be a lot of off topic subjects being discussed above.
My comment as I have stated previously is to congratulate the Stadler engineers at Birkenhead North EMU Depot for sorting the 230s out. Don't forget that for the previous forty years their expertise was was servicing and overhauling Class 507/508 units so to get them to the current situation where they are more reliable than the 197s is incredible.

Not sure what’s been sorted out, they still only do half a days work, that’s 5 trains for one working, still no improvement in them. When they take over the route and run proper mileage then we can maybe pat some backs.

To compare the 230 to 197 is ridiculous really, the 197s have saved the route and they work long diagrams every day covering a big amount of miles and they are covering for other trains not being available. The 230 is probably the most reliable train in the country at the moment, imagine if they had 5 times the amount of 197s to work their trains i’m sure they would be very reliable too.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There seems to be a lot of off topic subjects being discussed above.

That matter has now been dealt with in posting #859 by a member of the website staff.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Not sure what’s been sorted out, they still only do half a days work, that’s 5 trains for one working, still no improvement in them. When they take over the route and run proper mileage then we can maybe pat some backs.

To compare the 230 to 197 is ridiculous really, the 197s have saved the route and they work long diagrams every day covering a big amount of miles and they are covering for other trains not being available. The 230 is probably the most reliable train in the country at the moment, imagine if they had 5 times the amount of 197s to work their trains i’m sure they would be very reliable too.

Just to update you 230008 did a whole day. That progress was buried in a load of other posts. So I have quoted it below.

230008 has been out in service all day and was not swapped out at 1320. Is this the start of things to come?

It seems 230006 and 230008 are so far modified. It is probably too early to be sure but the signs are promising.

 

[Caaardiff]

The plan from Dec TT change is 2x 230's out all day. As already mentioned, it would cause quite a lot of planning changes to change that before any timetable change.
Hopefully the mods have worked and the rest of the fleet becomes more reliable and that timetable plans comes to fruition. If it does, we may even see the 3rd take over all day and 197's no longer on the route.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Just to update you 230008 did a whole day. That progress was buried in a load of other posts. So I have quoted it below.

It seems 230006 and 230008 are so far modified. It is probably too early to be sure but the signs are promising.

Oh, he saw it. Then turned it into a negative, suggesting that it only did a full day because no other 230 was able to come out for the second half. See below.

There is nothing positive to say about them really. They have cost a huge amount of money, multi millions and have caused massive disruption to a rural route that people rely on. Only for the 197s the route has been rescued. And still now after all this time there is only one working per day. The fact that one has stayed out says a lot that they can’t even have another one available to use to cover the other diagram, unless there was a problem at Birkenhead depot or with the crew so it had to stay in service.

Of course, this is positive news. It's obviously not ideal that it's taken so long - nobody is denying that - but it is very clear progress. We'll wait and see what happens December onwards, but this definitely looks like goods news re both getting the 230s working properly and releasing the 197s back to the mainline diagram where they need to be.

 

[8H]

Oh, he saw it. Then turned it into a negative, suggesting that it only did a full day because no other 230 was able to come out for the second half. See below.



Of course, this is positive news. It's obviously not ideal that it's taken so long - nobody is denying that - but it is very clear progress. We'll wait and see what happens December onwards, but this definitely looks like goods news re both getting the 230s working properly and releasing the 197s back to the mainline diagram where they need to be.

In complete agreement with you, it’s a route with a decent future, especially if the planned infrastructure and signalling improvements also take place. It doesn’t need reflex knocking copy but critical support. Let’s hope the long term performance trend now is boring and stable.

 

[DelW]

Not sure what’s been sorted out, they still only do half a days work, that’s 5 trains for one working, still no improvement in them. When they take over the route and run proper mileage then we can maybe pat some backs.

Somewhat better than the six working trains out of a brand new fleet of ninety 701s (one in fifteen) that SWR have managed after around five years of (supposedly) trying ...

 

[WirralLine]

Ah yes, the excellent 197s to the rescue, of which many are off with a variety of faults, some going into storage at Shrewsbury and Holyhead to get them out of the way until CAF have time to see to their problems and ERTMS Cambrian units being forced into service to cover the severe shortage of available 197s. Short formations everywhere.

Yes, the 230 introduction, and the whole project overall poses some serious questions which need some serious answers, but that cannot be changed now. What is important is the 230s taking up full diagrams on the Bidstons and allowing much needed 197s to go on the mainline - which seems to be happening. Positive news? According to this forum no, because they need something to moan about.

From my own experiences, if they had ordered just 5x197s to run Bidstons and no other 197s at all, we would be in the same situation.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Ah yes, the excellent 197s to the rescue, of which many are off with a variety of faults, some going into storage at Shrewsbury and Holyhead to get them out of the way until CAF have time to see to their problems and ERTMS Cambrian units being forced into service to cover the severe shortage of available 197s. Short formations everywhere.

Yes, the 230 introduction, and the whole project overall poses some serious questions which need some serious answers, but that cannot be changed now. What is important is the 230s taking up full diagrams on the Bidstons and allowing much needed 197s to go on the mainline - which seems to be happening. Positive news? According to this forum no, because they need something to moan about.

From my own experiences, if they had ordered just 5x197s to run Bidstons and no other 197s at all, we would be in the same situation.

I agree the 197s do seem to be struggling. Fingers crossed it is just because they too are a new fleet and covering other problems in South Wales.

My bold
Your comparison considering if the 197s were only a micro fleet is a valid one.
As in a small fleet of five, the same size as the TfW 230s.