Transport for Wales Class 230

[WirralLine]

It certainly looks like the rail passengers on the Borderlands line are just seen as incidental to what appears to be the far more important operational Class 230 traction matters. Remind me what month and year it was when the Class 230 units were supposed to be fully operational in service.

The passengers on the line now have the most reliable and frequent service they've had in my life time. They dont care if its a 197 or a 230, theyre just happy to have something other than a 150 on a timetable thats actually workable. The 230s don't seem to be giving much hassle at the moment, hopefully whatever mods 006 has had will prove workable and get rolled out on the others. Not sure what was up with 008 yesterday morning. Its the 197s that are the real headache at the moment causing constant problems all over the place.

 

[sd0733]

I'm a bit lost with the 230 introduction but I assume TFW still plan to have the whole line 230s one day?

Eventually but even in the next timetable I believe there's to be one 197 diagram, out and back from Chester, works a service Chester to Wrexham then Bidstons all day and then ecs back to Chester at the end but on paper it's hoped for the others to be 230s.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The passengers on the line now have the most reliable and frequent service they've had in my life time. They dont care if its a 197 or a 230, theyre just happy to have something other than a 150 on a timetable thats actually workable. The 230s don't seem to be giving much hassle at the moment, hopefully whatever mods 006 has had will prove workable and get rolled out on the others. Not sure what was up with 008 yesterday morning. Its the 197s that are the real headache at the moment causing constant problems all over the place.

I am so very pleased to learn how you personally feel how satisfied the passengers have been with the service provided since TfW 5 Class 230 units were planned to enter service. What exactly do you refer to regarding the 008 yesterday morning?

I notice you did not confirm the month and year that the 5 Class 230 units were supposed to be fully operational. In the over-800 postings made upon this thread, it does seem that there have been many instances of Class 230 units not being satisfactory in service. Have you ever come across any of those past postings?

 

[WirralLine]

I am so very pleased to learn how you personally feel how satisfied the passengers have been with the service provided since TfW 5 Class 230 units were planned to enter service. What exactly do you refer to regarding the 008 yesterday morning?

I notice you did not confirm the month and year that the 5 Class 230 units were supposed to be fully operational. In the over-800 postings made upon this thread, it does seem that there have been many instances of Class 230 units not being satisfactory in service. Have you ever come across any of those past postings?

I'm well aware of the issues they've had. No idea when they were supposed to be introduced, wasn't it around 2019? I'm also not saying the investment has been worthwhile and that mistakes havnt been made.

I have come across past postings yes. I'm also a local user of the line, and have been my whole life. The point is the service now is better than it ever has been, and the 230s seem to behave themselves. I also work the 230s regularly, have done since introduction. The public seem to like them too. Passengers regularly comment on how much better the more frequent reliable service is.

 

[Lurcheroo]

It certainly looks like the rail passengers on the Borderlands line are just seen as incidental to what appears to be the far more important operational Class 230 traction matters. Remind me what month and year it was when the Class 230 units were supposed to be fully operational in service.

TFW committed to providing new rolling stock and they have done. As has been said, it’s been far from smooth but TFW also committed to restoring that service and again, it’s already been said that the now line now has one of the best services it has ever seen.

I have it on good authority there will be no 197s rostered on the Borderlands line on December 25th this year.

Interesting. It certainly would seem unlikely as there’s nothing else to

Eventually but even in the next timetable I believe there's to be one 197 diagram, out and back from Chester, works a service Chester to Wrexham then Bidstons all day and then ecs back to Chester at the end but on paper it's hoped for the others to be 230s.

ahh that would seem more likely and a good step forward. Hopefully they will push forward with getting the mods done on the other units.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm well aware of the issues they've had. No idea when they were supposed to be introduced, wasn't it around 2019? I'm also not saying the investment has been worthwhile and that mistakes havnt been made.

I have come across past postings yes. I'm also a local user of the line, and have been my whole life. The point is the service now is better than it ever has been, and the 230s seem to behave themselves. I also work the 230s regularly, have done since introduction. The public seem to like them too. Passengers regularly comment on how much better the more frequent reliable service is.

Ah. Information from the coal face so to speak.

It has been no gain without pain but I think perseverance from TfW is paying off. TfW have perhaps long seen the potential of the 230s and implementation of other brand new trains (197s or Aventras) has not gone as well as could be expected either.

It was always a risk trying out new technology and having the manufacturer go bust was a set back. But despite the hurdles this seems to have done better than similar innovative projects from bigger companies. Still not out of the woods yet but there is progress.

 

[childwallblues]

Probably been answered before but do Maerseyrail engineers maintain the 230s or are there TfW engineers at Birkenhead North?

 

[Zontar]

Ah. Information from the coal face so to speak.

It has been no gain without pain but I think perseverance from TfW is paying off. TfW have perhaps long seen the potential of the 230s and implementation of other brand new trains (197s or Aventras) has not gone as well as could be expected either.

It was always a risk trying out new technology and having the manufacturer go bust was a set back. But despite the hurdles this seems to have done better than similar innovative projects from bigger companies. Still not out of the woods yet but there is progress.

I agree in principal, but how many millions of tax payers money for an experiment? I don't see this being anything other than a howler of an investment.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But despite the hurdles this seems to have done better than similar innovative projects from bigger companies. Still not out of the woods yet but there is progress.

Are there currently any other UK or European "innovative" units that only run half-day working?

 

[Lewisham2221]

I agree in principal, but how many millions of tax payers money for an experiment? I don't see this being anything other than a howler of an investment.

I don't think anyone would disagree that the whole project has cost far more than it should have done. Hindsight is a wonderful thing though.

Are there currently any other UK or European "innovative" units that only run half-day working?

With all due respect, I don't think any "ordinary" users of the line could care less about whether the train they're about to catch has done a full day, half day, or only manages one round trip at a time without going for a bit of a rest. Most of them probably wouldn't even give a thought to how much money may or may not have been spent to get that train to turn up. As long as it does. Which, it would appear, the 230's are managing to do now. For all any of us know, the 230's may now be capable of managing a full day. But they're not currently diagrammed to do so and until they are, we'll continue to not know.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With all due respect, I don't think any "ordinary" users of the line could care less about whether the train they're about to catch has done a full day, half day, or only manages one round trip at a time without going for a bit of a rest. Most of them probably wouldn't even give a thought to how much money may or may not have been spent to get that train to turn up. As long as it does. Which, it would appear, the 230's are managing to do now. For all any of us know, the 230's may now be capable of managing a full day. But they're not currently diagrammed to do so and until they are, we'll continue to not know.

All very interesting, but you have totally ignored the question that I asked.

 

[DavidGrain]

Probably been answered before but do Maerseyrail engineers maintain the 230s or are there TfW engineers at Birkenhead North?

As I understand it Stadler do the maintenance as they also maintain the Merseyrail stock.

The reason London Northwestern had to take their 230s out of service was because Vivarail had the maintenance contract.

GWR are still testing 230001which they converted to battery operation and have employed some ex-Vivarail staff. A friend of mine saw it on the Greenford Branch a couple of weeks ago and spoke to the crew. They could not give him an estimate as to when it would be brought into service. 230003/4/5 are instore at GWR Reading.

230002 & 011 are in America. The 3rd rail version 484001-005 are on the Isle of Wight. EDIT IOW train numbers corrected thanks to Peter Mugridge Post 727 below

 

[Peter Sarf]

I agree in principal, but how many millions of tax payers money for an experiment? I don't see this being anything other than a howler of an investment.

Experiments are quite often not cheap and quite often not successful. Experiments are done to find out. If people knew they would be successful then the experiment would be pointless. Granted the commitment TfW made to 230s would have likely been with more confidence than hindsight now provides.

Are there currently any other UK or European "innovative" units that only run half-day working?

Class 701, all 90 of them - brand new and barely any in service. Furthermore, until recently, only one at a time and only part time.

TfW abandoned their Bi-Mode 769s having only used them on diesel.

GWR never implemented their Bi-Mode 769s.

Northern have plodded on with their 769s but reliability has not been great but is improving.

As I understand it Stadler do the maintenance as they also maintain the Merseyrail stock.

The reason London Northwestern had to take their 230s out of service was because Vivarail had the maintenance contract.

GWR are still testing 230001which they converted to battery operation and have employed some ex-Vivarail staff. A friend of mine saw it on the Greenford Branch a couple of weeks ago and spoke to the crew. They could not give him an estimate as to when it would be brought into service. 230003/4/5 are instore at GWR Reading.

230002 & 011 are in America. The 3rd rail version 485001-005 are on the Isle of Wight.

I think 230003, 004 & 005 have moved from Reading to Long Marston for storage but do belong to GWR (as do a lot of the unconverted D tube stock).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Experiments are quite often not cheap and quite often not successful. Experiments are done to find out. If people knew they would be successful then the experiment would be pointless. Granted the commitment TfW made to 230s would have likely been with more confidence than hindsight now provides.

Class 701, all 90 of them - brand new and barely any in service. Furthermore, until recently, only one at a time and only part time.

That is a very large number and I suppose that TfW are somewhat relieved that they only have five units to worry about.

 

[43096]

Class 701, all 90 of them - brand new and barely any in service. Furthermore, until recently, only one at a time and only part time.

Class 701 is not an innovative design - it's a bog standard suburban EMU.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Class 701 is not an innovative design - it's a bog standard suburban EMU.

Which makes it even more exasperating !.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The 3rd rail version 485001-005 are on the Isle of Wight.

Slight typo there... they are 484 001 → 005...

 

[DavidGrain]

Slight typo there... they are 484 001 → 005...

Thanks.Corrected

 

[bristollh]

I caught up with 230006 this morning, catching it from Shotton to Bidston. Ran much the same as the other examples until we got to Upton, whereupon the engines were shut down and we proceeded to Bidston on battery power alone. I think that might be progress!

Jeff

 

[Caaardiff]

I caught up with 230006 this morning, catching it from Shotton to Bidston. Ran much the same as the other examples until we got to Upton, whereupon the engines were shut down and we proceeded to Bidston on battery power alone. I think that might be progress!

Jeff

That's a new procedure put in place because of issues experienced during leaf fall with air intakes.

 

[Philip Roberts]

006 still seems to be out and about, although not all day yet?

 

[sd0733]

006 still seems to be out and about, although not all day yet?

The diagram swaps mid day until the timetable change. It's unlikely to change before then as it will also affect the crew diagrams.

 

[Philip Roberts]

The diagram swaps mid day until the timetable change. It's unlikely to change before then as it will also effect the crew diagrams.

That makes sense. Cheers

 

[CaergwrleKen]

If you are lucky you can see both the 230 together in the platform at Bidston at about 1.20 when one comes from Birkenhead depot and the other goes back to the depot. Lots of excitement when 006 came into service but nothing has changed only now they have 5 units cover one diagram. Massive waste of money and the 197s carry on when trains are cancelled or full on the main line.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Lots of excitement when 006 came into service but nothing has changed only now they have 5 units cover one diagram. Massive waste of money and the 197s carry on when trains are cancelled or full on the main line.

Well it sounds like from December there may well be only 1 197 booked. Perhaps then the swap will be removed and we will see 006 work a whole day.
Things are still progressing.

 

[WirralLine]

If you are lucky you can see both the 230 together in the platform at Bidston at about 1.20 when one comes from Birkenhead depot and the other goes back to the depot. Lots of excitement when 006 came into service but nothing has changed only now they have 5 units cover one diagram. Massive waste of money and the 197s carry on when trains are cancelled or full on the main line.

As has been said above they can't alter the unit diagrams so that one unit does a full day until a timetable change as crew diagrams are designed around this too.

They don't breakdown very much these days - the 197s are giving much more hassle than the 230s but everybody seems to ignore that on here.

The plan is to switch to 2x230 1x197 and long term 3x230.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Also, 197’s Are hardly doing well themselves, only 40 out of 54 available one day recently

 

[anthony263]

I think we need to wait until December and see 220006 doing a full day on the line

 

[_toommm_]

I think we need to wait until December and see 220006 doing a full day on the line

A 220 on the Greenford Line is a bit excessive isn't it

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think we need to wait until December and see 220006 doing a full day on the line

It seems amazing that after 200 years of locomotive building in the UK that in 2024, hope is being talked about a motive power actually doing a full days work...