Transport for Wales 769's

[PSDL_101]

Are they doing what BR used to?

Run them until they fail and then immediately withdraw them?

No, there is a structured and planned hand back for the units. They were always going to be a short stop-gap for TfW as their 231 fleet was always going to replace them, then the 756's will displace the 231's.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2023 ==

That's a fair point - a 759 does by it's nature bring with it a decent amount of redundancy. But if the failure is enough to render the unit unfit for service, you've straight away lost 4 cars from traffic. You need to lose 2 150s to get the same loss

I think the TfW units have a much harder life. The Northern units only spend part of their day on diesel, and when they do it's mostly on the relatively flat Wigan - Southport line. The TfW units exclusively run on diesel, mostly on a very hilly route, and with more stop-start. We know the 769s should work fine on electricity - but I you're comparing diesel running I'd be worried if the Northern units weren't proving more reliable.

It isn't quite as simple as that. The 769's offer significantly more capacity per unit than a 150. So the loss of a 4-car 769 would me more akin to the loss of 2.5 150's (so 3 units) which the timetable could never support anyway.

There is also just as much redundancy in the unit as a 150 as there are several faults that the units are very capable of operating in service with. For example, the units can lose a power-pack and still continue in service until end of route, which is broadly the same for all TfW stock.

 

[craigybagel]

No, there is a structured and planned hand back for the units. They were always going to be a short stop-gap for TfW as their 231 fleet was always going to replace them, then the 756's will displace the 231's.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2023 ==

Was that always the plan though? Publicly at the time of the Stadlers being ordered there was no mention of the 231s going to Rhymney first before moving to their long term home once the 756s arrived. It certainly gives the impression the plan was changed to get rid of the 769s as soon as possible, even earlier than was originally planned.

It isn't quite as simple as that. The 769's offer significantly more capacity per unit than a 150. So the loss of a 4-car 769 would me more akin to the loss of 2.5 150's (so 3 units) which the timetable could never support anyway.

There is also just as much redundancy in the unit as a 150 as there are several faults that the units are very capable of operating in service with. For example, the units can lose a power-pack and still continue in service until end of route, which is broadly the same for all TfW stock.

Any kind of cab fault and you lose the entire unit - as opposed to only half of a 2 X 150 unit formation. Indeed, you might not lose either 150 if the faulty cab can be buried in the middle. I do accept though that I'm terms of traction faults, the redundancy levels are similar.

However, I still maintain that the end results of a 769 being taken out of service are different. Until that unit is fit to return to service, you've lost twice as much capacity as if you lose a 150.

 

[Greybeard33]

Was that always the plan though? Publicly at the time of the Stadlers being ordered there was no mention of the 231s going to Rhymney first before moving to their long term home once the 756s arrived. It certainly gives the impression the plan was changed to get rid of the 769s as soon as possible, even earlier than was originally planned.

Any kind of cab fault and you lose the entire unit - as opposed to only half of a 2 X 150 unit formation. Indeed, you might not lose either 150 if the faulty cab can be buried in the middle. I do accept though that I'm terms of traction faults, the redundancy levels are similar.

However, I still maintain that the end results of a 769 being taken out of service are different. Until that unit is fit to return to service, you've lost twice as much capacity as if you lose a 150.

Also a 769 has less redundancy than even a single 150, in the equipment inherited from the 319. There is only one traction converter, one brake compressor and one motor-alternator set. Failure of any of these items can cause the unit to sit down. Whereas a 150 can struggle on with a dead powertrain in either car.

 

[AM9]

Also a 769 has less redundancy than even a single 150, in the equipment inherited from the 319. There is only one traction converter, one brake compressor and one motor-alternator set. Failure of any of these items can cause the unit to sit down. Whereas a 150 can struggle on with a dead powertrain in either car.

True, but the traction converter in a 769 is running well within its rated power so is less likely to be a common point of failure compared to that when running as a 319, - which in terms of their cascaded roles have a much more relaxed life than their c.30 years of thrshing up and down the Thameslink routes.

 

[Caaardiff]

No, there is a structured and planned hand back for the units. They were always going to be a short stop-gap for TfW as their 231 fleet was always going to replace them, then the 756's will displace the 231's.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2023 ==


It isn't quite as simple as that. The 769's offer significantly more capacity per unit than a 150. So the loss of a 4-car 769 would me more akin to the loss of 2.5 150's (so 3 units) which the timetable could never support anyway.

There is also just as much redundancy in the unit as a 150 as there are several faults that the units are very capable of operating in service with. For example, the units can lose a power-pack and still continue in service until end of route, which is broadly the same for all TfW stock.

Was that always the plan though? Publicly at the time of the Stadlers being ordered there was no mention of the 231s going to Rhymney first before moving to their long term home once the 756s arrived. It certainly gives the impression the plan was changed to get rid of the 769s as soon as possible, even earlier than was originally planned.

Correct, the 231's were never planned for Rhymney, they were planned to displace the 170's to West Wales, and more recently now to EMR. The commonality with 756's makes perfect sense to introduce the 231's ahead of 756s. I imagine the conversion between the 2 for train crew training would be relatively simple? So the leg work is already done.

769's are great capacity wise, but is only really needed during the peak mornings and evenings. All other times 150's are adequate. It would have been better to pick up some more 153's to have at least 3 car services paired up with a 150. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but ultimately 769's have not been a success.

 

[AdamWW]

769's are great capacity wise, but is only really needed during the peak mornings and evenings. All other times 150's are adequate. It would have been better to pick up some more 153's to have at least 3 car services paired up with a 150. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but ultimately 769's have not been a success.

Looks as if 769 006 wasn't a success today, sitting down at platform 2 at Queen Street and causing the Penarth services behind it to get stuck outside the station with delays up to around 40 minutes.

 

[Class319&373]

Does anyone know if 769421 will be out next Monday or is this it's last week, it the only one of the TfW 769s I haven't caught yet. Thanks in advance.

 

[Express380]

Does anyone know if 769421 will be out next Monday or is this it's last week, it the only one of the TfW 769s I haven't caught yet. Thanks in advance.

Apparently it's the /0s going first followed by the /4s so I reckon you have a little longer for 421 yet

 

[Jez]

Are we still expecting all the of 769s to be withdrawn by the May timetable change or have they been extended longer?

 

[Roger B]

I spent a few hours in Cardiff earlier in the week - and was surprised that there were so many 769s still working, given the number of 231s accepted into service.

I saw 769002, 769008, 769421, 769445 working.

 

[AdamWW]

I spent a few hours in Cardiff earlier in the week - and was surprised that there were so many 769s still working, given the number of 231s accepted into service.

I saw 769002, 769008, 769421, 769445 working.

Yes they are still operating plenty of services.

TfW do seem to be a bit short on servicable trains - a permanent state of "more trains than usual needing repairs" (which does raise the question of what "usual" is).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I spent a few hours in Cardiff earlier in the week - and was surprised that there were so many 769s still working, given the number of 231s accepted into service.

I saw 769002, 769008, 769421, 769445 working.

They’re only doing 3 FLIRT diagrams a day at the moment and 150s are needed in mass droves to cover almost all of the 175s Manchester Milford diagrams.

 

[Jez]

It makes sense to keep.the 769s so as many 150s and 153s as possible can cover for the absent 175s. Whether there will be enough FLIRT in service by May to cover all the Rhymneys is the question.

 

[AdamWW]

It makes sense to keep.the 769s so as many 150s and 153s as possible can cover for the absent 175s. Whether there will be enough FLIRT in service by May to cover all the Rhymneys is the question.

Even without the recent problems with 175's they were routinely cancelling and short-forming trains due to lack of stock.

 

[Anonymous10]

They’re only doing 3 FLIRT diagrams a day at the moment and 150s are needed in mass droves to cover almost all of the 175s Manchester Milford diagrams.

Fortunately with Treherbert shutting soon that should help with the class 150 availability and diagramming

 

[Anonymous10]

Even without the recent problems with 175's they were routinely cancelling and short-forming trains due to lack of stock.

To be fair they have increased services which they had to do due to franchise commitments or I believe they have anyway. While also having a fleet of trains where the vast majority are 30-40 years old with only the 170 and 175s (minority in the fleet) being 20 years old

 

[AdamWW]

To be fair they have increased services which they had to do due to franchise commitments or I believe they have anyway. While also having a fleet of trains where the vast majority are 30-40 years old with only the 170 and 175s (minority in the fleet) being 20 years old

It wasn't intended as a criticism.

 

[Bikeman78]

I spent a few hours in Cardiff earlier in the week - and was surprised that there were so many 769s still working, given the number of 231s accepted into service.

I saw 769002, 769008, 769421, 769445 working.

There are still four diagrams for the remaining six units.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Does anyone know if 769421 will be out next Monday or is this it's last week, it the only one of the TfW 769s I haven't caught yet. Thanks in advance.

769 421 next workings are 14.47 Cardiff Central to Ystrad Mynach then the 15.28 from there to Penarth and 16.18 from there to Bargoed.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I wonder how long 002/006/008 have left then...
Potentially the /4 may make it up until the TT?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Anyone wanting to try to get a photo of 769 426... assuming it hasn't moved since I took this picture on 6th March, this is where exactly it is at Wolverton as seen from the Lidl car park.

 

[Roger B]

Anyone wanting to try to get a photo of 769 426... assuming it hasn't moved since I took this picture on 6th March, this is where exactly it is at Wolverton as seen from the Lidl car park.

Thanks Peter. I was there in February, hoping to see some of the new class 18s. I took a similar shot, but hadn't realised it was 769426 (my phone camera has much less definition), nor was it partially obscured by 321419.
I take it that that's the second formation of 769426, with 77290 of 319001 having replaced 77340 from 319426?

 

[Techniquest]

Thanks for that, that one is the only one I want for sight and I have no plans to head over to Wolverton for it. I think I will delete it fron my wants list, now I have seen confirmation of where it is

 

[StripeyNick]

I wonder how long 002/006/008 have left then...
Potentially the /4 may make it up until the TT?

002 is rumoured to be the next to go. It hasn't worked since last weekend so may well have worked it's last trains. 006 is down in the Pullman part of Canton so wonder if that'll head back out??

 

[The_Train]

Anyone wanting to try to get a photo of 769 426... assuming it hasn't moved since I took this picture on 6th March, this is where exactly it is at Wolverton as seen from the Lidl car park.

Any ideas when this unit moved to Wolverton Peter?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Any ideas when this unit moved to Wolverton Peter?

No idea, sorry - probably straight from conversion since it's the one that was rejected and never made it to Cardiff.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No idea, sorry - probably straight from conversion since it's the one that was rejected and never made it to Cardiff.

Meaning haulagers can never complete the /4 subclass

 

[Techniquest]

Meaning haulagers can never complete the /4 subclass

Given it never seems to have entered surface, I'm not too bothered. If it had been in passenger service, and I'd missed it before it was withdrawn, then I'd have been annoyed. As it is, I've put a line through it in my book and deleted it from my wants list.

To be honest, I'm more disappointed that I didn't get to sample a 769/9, from what I saw of them on the odd occasion I was down that way, they looked like they'd have been really good trains to travel on.

It is what it is, with regards to 769426, as far as I'm concerned and I'd imagine most of us are probably thinking similarly. It would be much more of a tragedy (and yes Steps' cover of Tragedy immediately popped into my head ) if the 231s were not great trains! All eyes will be on the 756s next!

 

[Liverpool 507]

I have seen photographs on Facebook of 769002 departing on a low loader. Apart from 769007, what other units have left and when are the remaining units likely to be withdrawn? I’m not based in Wales so any advice is appreciated. I am keen to head down to catch these units as well as the remaining 170s

 

[StripeyNick]

I have seen photographs on Facebook of 769002 departing on a low loader. Apart from 769007, what other units have left and when are the remaining units likely to be withdrawn? I’m not based in Wales so any advice is appreciated. I am keen to head down to catch these units as well as the remaining 170s

006, 008, 421, 445 & 452 are left.

006 is currently down in Pullman's at Canton and hasn't been out for a while so I'd expect that to go next.

003 has gone along with 002 & 007

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2023 ==

No idea, sorry - probably straight from conversion since it's the one that was rejected and never made it to Cardiff.

426 made it to Canton on 19/12/20. A spare 319 coach was used to facilitate the move from the Brickyard to Canton. As we know it was rejected and left Canton on 23/4/21