Transpennine woes and a moan...

[sjpowermac]

Sunday services are running to an amended timetable which isn't confirmed until midweek due to the IR issues.

Slightly curious as to what the IR issues are that the Sunday timetable ends up not significantly different from when the RMT had strike action on a Sunday.

 

[kels430]

Cancelled less than 30 minutes before the train was due to leave today and as you can imagine it’s due to “a short notice chance to the timetable”. Can’t get the one an hour later because that’s cancelled too and the only advice TPE give is to submit yet another formal complaint and speak to station staff who have no idea what’s going on because they hadn’t been told about the cancellation yet.

 

[LittleAH]

Slightly curious as to what the IR issues are that the Sunday timetable ends up not significantly different from when the RMT had strike action on a Sunday.

There wasn't any 'strike action' per se. Sundays are not in the working week for conductors. The withdrawing of rest day working as a result of IR issues is the major cause.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Sunday services are running to an amended timetable which isn't confirmed until midweek due to the IR issues.

But there are no IR issues affecting Sundays.

Conductors are working Sundays as normal and overtime / rest day working has been reinstated some months ago.

There are volunteers for rest day working on Sundays.

If they advertised a full service there is no obvious reason why they wouldn't be able to crew it as Conductors are working normally and Drivers have Sundays inside their working week anyway.

The only reason I can see to run the amended timetable is to ensure they reduce the overtime / rest day expenditure for Conductors and of course ensure they can't work overtime to earn back money lost on strike days.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Oct 2022 ==

There wasn't any 'strike action' per se. Sundays are not in the working week for conductors. The withdrawing of rest day working as a result of IR issues is the major cause.

But Rest Day Working has been reinstated some time ago.

There are currently no restrictions on rest day working and I am led to believe there are plenty of volunteers for rest day working, but they are simply not being used, with a reduced timetable running instead.

 

[DanNCL]

There are currently no restrictions on rest day working and I am led to believe there are plenty of volunteers for rest day working, but they are simply not being used, with a reduced timetable running instead.

That’s what I keep hearing too.

I’d like to know who’s making the decision to cancel trains when they have everything in place that they’d need to run them. Whoever it is frankly needs sacking as cancelling trains without valid reason isn’t doing their job properly.

I have absolutely zero experience in TOC control but I would volunteer myself to run TPE control for a week for free. I reckon a 5 year old could run it better than the current shambles.

 

[43066]

Slightly curious as to what the IR issues are that the Sunday timetable ends up not significantly different from when the RMT had strike action on a Sunday.

Insufficient volunteers for RDW seems likely?

Who can really blame staff for not wanting to do overtime when morale is at rock bottom.

But there are no IR issues affecting Sundays.

“IR issues” aren’t confined to industrial action. If morale is at rock bottom people are naturally less inclined to work overtime to help out. With the state of TPE at the moment the working environment will likely be highly unpleasant due to the number of (quite understandably!) furious passengers.

I am led to believe there are plenty of volunteers for rest day working, but they are simply not being used, with a reduced timetable running instead.

Where are you hearing that? Are you suggesting turns are going uncovered while staff available for RDW are being unused?

 

[DanNCL]

Where are you hearing that? Are you suggesting turns are going uncovered while staff available for RDW are being unused?

At least one TPE guard has already said that’s the case in this thread.

 

[43066]

At least one TPE guard has already said that’s the case in this thread.

If that’s the case and I’ve missed it then apologies - I agree that would be ludicrous.

However it’s subtly different if they’re running a reduced timetable for other reasons (eg to make the service more robust) and it might well be that fewer staff are needed to cover the service. Hence if more than expected make themselves available they might not be required. Obviously if this was happening regularly then - by definition - the limited timetable should no longer be necessary!

It’s also possible that, even with a limited timetable, there are still insufficient volunteers. Especially if sickness is higher than normal as I gather is the case across the board at the moment.

 

[CAF397]

No point arranging guards working rest days if there is no driver to work the train.

The current reduced timetable is also because of the reduced availability of drivers.

 

[EZJ]

No point arranging guards working rest days if there is no driver to work the train.

The current reduced timetable is also because of the reduced availability of drivers.

There's more than enough drivers to cover a bigger train plan, at least 5 drivers at my depot get to stay at home on a Sunday as there is no work in their dockets, also 5 or 6 spares who sit there all day doing sweet Fa. It's most definitely a conscious choice that is being made by the powers that be.

 

[sjpowermac]

There wasn't any 'strike action' per se. Sundays are not in the working week for conductors. The withdrawing of rest day working as a result of IR issues is the major cause.

That’s a different message from the one TPE put out to the travelling public, where on both their website and onboard their trains, the RMT action earlier this year was labelled ‘strike action’.

Are you saying that conductors have withdrawn rest day working? Or is it the lack of a rest day working agreement for drivers that’s causing the reduced Sunday service?

There's more than enough drivers to cover a bigger train plan, at least 5 drivers at my depot get to stay at home on a Sunday as there is no work in their dockets, also 5 or 6 spares who sit there all day doing sweet Fa. It's most definitely a conscious choice that is being made by the powers that be.

Thank you for the info, it would certainly be interesting to hear the reasoning behind that.

 

[LittleAH]

That’s a different message from the one TPE put out to the travelling public, where on both their website and onboard their trains, the RMT action earlier this year was labelled ‘strike action’.

Are you saying that conductors have withdrawn rest day working? Or is it the lack of a rest day working agreement for drivers that’s causing the reduced Sunday service?

Sundays are in the working week for drivers, not for conductors. And I point to my previous comment around technicalities. Also, unlike the views of some on here for Sunday provision - it is still the case that there isn't the cover to provide a full Sunday timetable as a result of the RDW issues.

 

[trainophile]

This ”10:00pm rule” - it’s putting the onus on the ticket holder to check late in the evening as to what they have decided to cancel the next day.

Arguably not everyone might have access to the online published data, or may be a shift worker in bed by 8:00pm, intending to catch an early train the next day, which turns out to be cancelled.

I think TPE are on very thin ice trying to refuse a refund for a ticket bought in good faith. If they can’t keep their side of the contract it’s not up to the innocent and inconvenienced customer to make last minute alternative arrangements while accepting the loss incurred from their original ticket.

It’s like Tesco home delivery deciding to email you four hours before your delivery slot, then saying we gave you notice of the cancellation so you’re not getting your shopping and we’re not refunding you. I can’t see that standing up in court.

 

[Getbacktowork]

Sundays are in the working week for drivers, not for conductors. And I point to my previous comment around technicalities. Also, unlike the views of some on here for Sunday provision - it is still the case that there isn't the cover to provide a full Sunday timetable as a result of the RDW issues.

There is a drastic difference between a full Sunday timetable and what is being provided currently.

This ”10:00pm rule” - it’s putting the onus on the ticket holder to check late in the evening as to what they have decided to cancel the next day.

Arguably not everyone might have access to the online published data, or may be a shift worker in bed by 8:00pm, intending to catch an early train the next day, which turns out to be cancelled.

I think TPE are on very thin ice trying to refuse a refund for a ticket bought in good faith. If they can’t keep their side of the contract it’s not up to the innocent and inconvenienced customer to make last minute alternative arrangements while accepting the loss incurred from their original ticket.

It’s like Tesco home delivery deciding to email you four hours before your delivery slot, then saying we gave you notice of the cancellation so you’re not getting your shopping and we’re not refunding you. I can’t see that standing up in court.

Any refund refused in these circumstances should be immediately pursued through a court of law.

I also believe that TPE should be looking at providing taxis or coaches for passengers impacted, rather than the standard 'get the next train, which may also be cancelled'.

Passengers have been prosecuted for using advance tickets on trains less than 1 hour before/after their booked train. If TPE believe such a small movement in time is not acceptable, they should also form the view that their insistence passengers wait for the next train (or the one after that) when they (regularly) balls up is equally unacceptable.

I would suggest a fleet of rail replacement coaches, at least on the core route between York and Manchester, every Sunday. This could be organised with a matter of ease and if TPE dispute this, I would be happy to point them in the direction of companies with availability.

 

[trainophile]

Considering the vast number of times Avanti pick up TPE passengers whose trains are cancelled, often creating very crowded services for their own booked customers, it wouldn’t hurt TPE to show a little general consideration in return.

 

[Getbacktowork]

Considering the vast number of times Avanti pick up TPE passengers whose trains are cancelled, often creating very crowded services for their own booked customers, it wouldn’t hurt TPE to show a little general consideration in return.

Agreed.

The problem is that on the core York to Manchester route there is no other TOC to sort out the mess, especially on a Sunday when Leeds to Victoria via Todmorden is only hourly. Perhaps off topic, but Nothern could/should look to increase this frequency.

I maintain my original suggestion. A temporary coach service between (at least) Leeds and Manchester. Non stop this is almost as quick as by train and will avoid unnecessary delay and overcrowding.

Perhaps further off topic. And I know they have their problems. But from a personal perspective, I have used Avanti North/South from Carlisle around 15 return or 30 single journeys this calendar year and have never once had more than a 12 minute delay. Clean trains, ample accommodation, welcoming staff.

An extremely small sample size I know.

 

[Segedunum]

Newcastle getting a rather raw deal this morning for anyone going south.

0426, 0743 and 0844 TPE services binned, leaving just the 0640 XC and 0924 LNER for any pre-0930 travel.

The 0426 and 0844 are on JourneyCheck but the middle service is missing entirely.

The last arrival at 2247 is also cancelled, meaning that the last journey opportunity from London at 1930 (changing at Darlington) doesn't exist, either.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Im crew for 07:43 and having to pass ride on 06:40 XC As a result of the cancellation. They are accepting all TOC tickets but they admit its off their own back as opposed to having been advised by control.

The lack of trains planned to run during this weeks engineering work has come up in discussion over a cup of tea with my XC colleagues on board

 

[Segedunum]

Im crew for 07:43 and having to pass ride on 06:40 XC As a result of the cancellation. They are accepting all TOC tickets but they admit its off their own back as opposed to having been advised by control.

The lack of trains planned to run during this weeks engineering work has come up in discussion over a cup of tea with my XC colleagues on board

I'm also on board the 06:40..!

I feel for those booked on the 04:26, as I gather they were left to wait for this service too.

Edit - quite the number of people alighting from the front set at York, I see. Seems that L at the back was the calm away from the storm...

 

[sjpowermac]

Sundays are in the working week for drivers, not for conductors. And I point to my previous comment around technicalities. Also, unlike the views of some on here for Sunday provision - it is still the case that there isn't the cover to provide a full Sunday timetable as a result of the RDW issues.

I read your reference to technicalities and replied that wasn’t what was relayed to the travelling public. Are you saying that TPE were not honest with the public regarding the conductors’ dispute and that it shouldn’t have been labelled ‘strike action’?

 

[DanNCL]

So we know at least one of the cancelled TPE services from Newcastle this morning, the 0743, had a guard, did that service also have a driver and a unit? If it did, there isn’t any good reason for it to have been cancelled.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The current situation with the industrial disputes are:-

TPE Fair Deal For Conductors Dispute
This dispute is in regard to low pay level for sunday working. Pre-COVID TPE conductors were receiving an enhanced sunday flat rate. This was regardless of turn length or start time. since this was binned sundays have reverted to Time +1/5. so for a 5 hour shift, £90. Take off 11% NI and 20% Tax. £60. Pension and other deductions may zap a further tenner Then minus another tenner for fuel and something to eat during your shift. £40. Now add your hour commute there and back and another hour getting cleaned, dressed into uniform etc, so you have lost a sunday with family, friends etc for less than £50 Its not financially worth the effort of coming in for that shift. Staff were therefore cherry picking certain shifts because they were 9-10 hours long or awaiting appeal emails to cover certain trains from A to B and requesting 10-12 hours worth of pay to cover individual bits and it was a real mess. Flat rate eliminated this and made all shifts worth losing the day for. All that was requested was an increase in Sunday pay in line with other TOCs incentivising staff to work sundays or bring the flat rate back. It benefits the company as well as the staff.
The dispute also involves the introduction of ticket scanning. With the loss of on board ticket sales and the associated commission it was planned to incentivise staff with a 2p payment per ticket scanned. The ticket had to have not already been scanned by another member of TPE staff to count. Again this was pre-COVID and was supposed to have been introduced on return. Again the benefit of the company in data capture and preventing re-use and fraud through photoshop cannot be ignored, and was supposed to incentivise staff to actually carry out checks. Other TOCs have introduced scanner payments and would have brought TPE in line.
the dispute also involves new technology payment with rostering apps replacing traditional pen and paper leave requests, shift swaps, rest day work availability etc and automating these. Again the benefit to the company cannot be ignored due to the reduction in man-hours processing rostering changes and it was the unions view that a one off bonus payment for introducing new technology should be made to staff.

This dispute has now been live for 6 months and as a result has to be re-balloted to keep this “live” and ballot papers are currently being distributed

As a result conductors were refusing to work sundays, with no rest day work agreement in place conductors were also working to rule, which basically means only your rostered hours and diagrams and +15 minuted for late running, not a minute more And no rest day working. Conductors were also refusing to use integrale and were not scanning barcoded tickets.

national pay and conditions dispute
This revolves around a number of issues which include the potential of Driver Only Operation being rolled out across the network, the demise of ticket offices moving staff onto platforms and catering roles which would be fulfilled by demoted train managers in dual-purpose roles. The issues here is the overall reduction in staff as with southern the requirement to run without the On Board Supervisor still remains in place and the number of station staff being reduced overall. There is also the reduction in maintenance staff levels which could lead to another grayrigg/potters bar/hatfield incident. The lack of any pay rise in line with inflation

The unions are not opposed to changes in working practices and modernisation, in fact they encourage it. Sunday has always been an aspiration to be brought within the working week, some TOCs Sundays are purely voluntary, others including TPE are mandatory rostered overtime, hence why there are issues getting Sundays covered and companies have relied on the goodwill of staff wanting to cover work on sundays and rest days (you know, that 1919 rule which states staff don't have to work on their days off - and quite frankly why should anyone HAVE to? Its their day OFF!) And thats where rest day work agreements come in to play.

The state of the disputes are as follows

RMT
TPE Fair Deal For Conductors
Due to the national dispute the work to rule was withdrawn allowing staff to work sundays and rest days if they wished. This was intended to negate the effect of losing wages during national strikes, however the continued refusal to adopt Integrale and no scanning barcoded tickets still remains in place.

National Dispute
Now Trevelyan has taken over from Shapps, as an opposer to ticket office closures there have been meaningful discussions take place in how to resolve the deadlock, however strikes are still taking place and remain staunchly solid despite the current economic climate

ASLEF
with there currently being no rest day work agreement ASLEF drivers for TPE are working to rule and not working on their days off. While there is spare cover for most shifts, some overnight, early and late turns do not benefit from spare crew coverage.

This has now created the situation where there are spare crews available, but because the trains cannot get on and off the depots or because theres a crew missing on part of one of the diagrams journeys the entire diagram is cancelled, leaving more crews spare or pass riding to pick up other services but this in itself brings problems if the pass ride is also cancelled. If trains are cancelled the previous night before 10pm they are classed as pre-planned and therefore do not count on the performance stats and the company still gets paid by the DfT. Theres no incentive for the company to resolve the dispute meanwhile the DfT keeps bankrolling it.

In my opinion this is The worst part of nationalisation met with the worst part of privatisation, and with GBR now on hold there doesnt look like any end to the current status quo any time soon. believe me this is not what staff want or where they want to be.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2022 ==

So we know at least one of the cancelled TPE services from Newcastle this morning, the 0743, had a guard, did that service also have a driver and a unit? If it did, there isn’t any good reason for it to have been cancelled.

Think the the problem here stems from no driver being available to bring the train set off Doncaster, therefore didnt run with the booked driver and conductor from York at 06:18 to be in position for the 07:43 off Newcastle.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2022 ==

Of coirse what would have made sense was to have utilised the crews and the 06:40 set brought off heaton for the 07:43 departure. something that would have been worked on by the dedicated traincrew controller in control. However, simce the traincrew controller was taken out of control and moved into rosters creating a centralised resourcing team, those controllers no longer have any idea what is going on in control and the route controller now takes care of redirecting train crew. They themselves however dont have the full crew plan available to them so cant necessarily see o know where the train crew are in relation to where they should be which also causes issues. Also from experience control dont like having units off their booked diagrams as it causes issues later in the day positioning for depot examinations etc. which i kind of understand but then that leaves the unit controllers reluctant to make any service retention alterations, its easier just to kill the whole diagram

 

[158801]

This dispute is in regard to low pay level for sunday working. Pre-COVID TPE conductors were receiving an enhanced sunday flat rate. This was regardless of turn length or start time. since this was binned sundays have reverted to Time +1/5. so for a 5 hour shift, £90. Take off 11% NI and 20% Tax. £60. Pension and other deductions may zap a further tenner Then minus another tenner for fuel and something to eat during your shift. £40. Now add your hour commute there and back and another hour getting cleaned, dressed into uniform etc, so you have lost a sunday with family, friends etc for less than £50 Its not financially worth the effort of coming in for that shift. Staff were therefore cherry picking certain shifts because they were 9-10 hours long or awaiting appeal emails to cover certain trains from A to B and requesting 10-12 hours worth of pay to cover individual bits and it was a real mess. Flat rate eliminated this and made all shifts worth losing the day for. All that was requested was an increase in Sunday pay in line with other TOCs incentivising staff to work sundays or bring the flat rate back. It benefits the company as well as the staff

I was under the impression that the flat rate for a Sunday was a temporary offer?

Am I right in thinking that the Time +1/5 is your contracted rate of pay for a Sunday ?

If I am right, part of the strike is about TPE paying conductors their contractual rate for working a Sunday?

 

[philthetube]

I read this is that TPE conductors do not feel that the current Sunday rate is worth giving up Sunday for and as overtime is voluntary then they don't.

 

[LowLevel]

I read this is that TPE conductors do not feel that the current Sunday rate is worth giving up Sunday for and as overtime is voluntary then they don't.

To a degree. To compare, I've got a DfT sanctioned rate Sunday overtime shift that's 5 hours this week (some are short, some are long, it balances) and I'll be paid about 180 quid for it. Not as much as some deals but it recognises the fact that if I'm at work, I'm at work.

If I was being paid less than 100 quid before tax for effectively losing a day off then I'd probably not bother turning up for it either.

They need to bring in a rate that is at least equal to a normal flat time shift regardless of length, as would be the case for a shift worked any other day of the week.

 

[Johnny Lewis]

According to Real Time Trains, just FOUR out of the scheduled 16 trains from Newcastle to Liverpool Lime Street actually ran today. All others were cancelled. This included the first five morning departures, and SIX consecutive services in the afternoon. Whatever the rights/wrongs or general circumstances, this must be a new low for TPE? They can't even really blame yesterday being a strike day, because at least the first four early trains FROM Liverpool did run.

I'm starting to forget what the "full" or pre-Covid timetable across the Pennines should be, but I THINK I remember it being four fast trains per hour between York and Manchester, with two per hour carrying on to Liverpool. They seem to be struggling to maintain even an hourly service at times.

I know there'd be an issue with short platforms at some stations, but is there any other operational reason why a 10 car IET couldn't run across the Pennines on occasions when the service is so heavily decimated like today? Lea Green, Newton-le-Willows and Chester-le-Street are already too short for a 5 car, so obviously SDO is already used at these stations. The only other call where length might be an issue is Dewsbury, where a 5 car fits, but a 10 car wouldn't. But surely this wouldn't be insurmountable, would it? At least 10 car formations would provide capacity, if not frequency.

 

[185143]

According to Real Time Trains, just FOUR out of the scheduled 16 trains from Newcastle to Liverpool Lime Street actually ran today. All others were cancelled. This included the first five morning departures, and SIX consecutive services in the afternoon. Whatever the rights/wrongs or general circumstances, this must be a new low for TPE? They can't even really blame yesterday being a strike day, because at least the first four early trains FROM Liverpool did run.

I'm starting to forget what the "full" or pre-Covid timetable across the Pennines should be, but I THINK I remember it being four fast trains per hour between York and Manchester, with two per hour carrying on to Liverpool. They seem to be struggling to maintain even an hourly service at times.

I know there'd be an issue with short platforms at some stations, but is there any other operational reason why a 10 car IET couldn't run across the Pennines on occasions when the service is so heavily decimated like today? Lea Green, Newton-le-Willows and Chester-le-Street are already too short for a 5 car, so obviously SDO is already used at these stations. The only other call where length might be an issue is Dewsbury, where a 5 car fits, but a 10 car wouldn't. But surely this wouldn't be insurmountable, would it? At least 10 car formations would provide capacity, if not frequency.

I've been on a 10 car 802 between Liverpool and Manchester. If I remember correctly the rear unit had a smashed windscreen and needed to get back to Doncaster so the service ran as a 10 car with the rear 5 coaches locked out.

 

[Frankfurt]

After today (Friday) I'm convinved it's deliberate, shocking service!

 

[Watershed]

According to Real Time Trains, just FOUR out of the scheduled 16 trains from Newcastle to Liverpool Lime Street actually ran today. All others were cancelled. This included the first five morning departures, and SIX consecutive services in the afternoon. Whatever the rights/wrongs or general circumstances, this must be a new low for TPE? They can't even really blame yesterday being a strike day, because at least the first four early trains FROM Liverpool did run.

I'm starting to forget what the "full" or pre-Covid timetable across the Pennines should be, but I THINK I remember it being four fast trains per hour between York and Manchester, with two per hour carrying on to Liverpool. They seem to be struggling to maintain even an hourly service at times.

I know there'd be an issue with short platforms at some stations, but is there any other operational reason why a 10 car IET couldn't run across the Pennines on occasions when the service is so heavily decimated like today? Lea Green, Newton-le-Willows and Chester-le-Street are already too short for a 5 car, so obviously SDO is already used at these stations. The only other call where length might be an issue is Dewsbury, where a 5 car fits, but a 10 car wouldn't. But surely this wouldn't be insurmountable, would it? At least 10 car formations would provide capacity, if not frequency.

A 10 car would be too long for almost all the stations en-route. Between Liverpool and York, the only places it would fully fit would be platforms 6, 9 and 10 at Liverpool Lime Street, platforms 8, 9, 11 and 12 at Leeds, and York. The fact you would be off the end of the platform at Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield etc., let alone the severe restriction in platforms you could use at Liverpool & Leeds, makes this a complete non-starter.

That's aside from the fact that most drivers aren't trained on coupling or uncoupling the units, and that there's no agreed method of work for a double set to run with both portions in passenger service (undoubtedly the RMT would demand a second conductor, which would obviate most of the traincrew saving).

 

[Getbacktowork]

After today (Friday) I'm convinved it's deliberate, shocking service!

Agreed. In line with forum rules I will moderate my actual views, but in short, an absolute disgrace of a company who could not care less about their customers.

They can simply no longer be relied upon as a viable means of transport.