Transpennine Industrial Relations

[43066]

I’d keep the no double tripping but everything else I think is get from west mids/northern

Yes that’s good. It generally seems a pretty happy ship to be fair. The five day week/week of rest days probably suits some, too. I think it’s 12 hour spare movements?

(Apologies slightly off topic for TPE IR. Albeit no doubt AWC are tempting to some TPE crew).

 

[Frankfurt]

It isn't going to get better anytime soon as company haven't approached Aslef to discuss a new rest day working agreement, which is contrary to what the company claims.
Also guards ballot for industrial action is due to close soon.

 

[baz962]

The perfect answer would be to put all us drivers on the terms, conditions & salary of the highest paid TOC (AWC I think) and then I’m sure everything will fall into place

I'm sure it's lner.

 

[hello]

I'm sure it's lner.

But aren’t there Sundays part of the working week?

 

[dk1]

But aren’t there Sundays part of the working week?

I wouldn’t mind that.

 

[wobman]

I'm not a fan of Sundays being a part of the working week personally, I much prefer having the option not to work Sundays and enjoying time with my family.
I'm the only railway shift worker in my family and working Sundays causes problems as it is, working far more won't help my work life balance.

The toc I work for have been negotiating Sundays inside the week for some time, I work 1 in 3 Sundays now and I don't see the demand for earlier and later Sunday services. But the services that do run just need to be strengthened.

I think Sundays and RDW problems will be IR problems at numerous TOCs this year unfortunately not just TPE.

 

[baz962]

But aren’t there Sundays part of the working week?

I don't know all the specific terms and conditions. I was just saying that lner are the highest paid toc. Awc are behind them in basic , but I have heard that they get extra for nights and Sundays. But I don't assume how much exactly that is , railway rumours and all. But lner are 71 and London weighting c 74 I believe and I was told that awc extras , take them to 72/73. Happy to be corrected though.

 

[Carlisle]

, take them to 72/73. Happy to be corrected though.

As another poster stated around 3 years ago, you could probably halve that salary & still attract enough staff of sufficient caliber to drive trains

 

[wobman]

As another poster stated around 3 years ago, you could probably halve that salary & still attract enough staff of sufficient caliber to drive trains

It was probably a failed train driver that said that you will find

 

[baz962]

As another poster stated around 3 years ago, you could probably halve that salary & still attract enough staff of sufficient caliber to drive trains

I wouldn't bet on that. Was that poster a driver , or just someone that thinks it's easy.

 

[Carlisle]

I wouldn't bet on that. Was that poster a driver , or just someone that thinks it's easy.

I’m pretty sure they weren’t a driver

 

[LowLevel]

I wouldn't bet on that. Was that poster a driver , or just someone that thinks it's easy.

We never have a shortage of applications for guards on less than half that (albeit the two jobs are different, good guards don't always make good drivers and good drivers don't always make good guards).

I doubt if you cut the wage to £40k that you'd struggle to fill drivers positions. I'm not advocating that by the way, I just still think you'd get plenty of people happy to do the job for that sum bearing in mind pretty much anyone from any walk of life can walk into a driving job off the street nowadays if they can pass the aptitude tests.

 

[baz962]

We never have a shortage of applications for guards on less than half that (albeit the two jobs are different, good guards don't always make good drivers and good drivers don't always make good guards).

I doubt if you cut the wage to £40k that you'd struggle to fill drivers positions. I'm not advocating that by the way, I just still think you'd get plenty of people happy to do the job for that sum bearing in mind pretty much anyone from any walk of life can walk into a driving job off the street nowadays if they can pass the aptitude tests.

I wasn't doubting you would get applicants. I would wager that you would have more incidents going on.

 

[Meerkat]

I wasn't doubting you would get applicants. I would wager that you would have more incidents going on.

Why? That would only happen if there were a significant number of skilled drivers who wouldn't have applied for half the money - what other jobs would they be going for to get £70k? I know long haul pilots get huge money but most airline pilots are on less than £70k aren't they?
(this is not in any way saying train drivers are unemployable elsewhere!)

 

[Clip]

Is there a direct correlation between the wage someone earns and their ability to do a professional job then?

Are those who are already being paid less for other TOCs having more incidents than those at Avanti or lner?

 

[baz962]

Why? That would only happen if there were a significant number of skilled drivers who wouldn't have applied for half the money - what other jobs would they be going for to get £70k? I know long haul pilots get huge money but most airline pilots are on less than £70k aren't they?
(this is not in any way saying train drivers are unemployable elsewhere!)

They wouldn't be getting 70k . Though. It was said up thread that if you halved the money. Some tocs only pay mid 50's to 60 k. So would you really get the best applicants for 25 to 30. I could go and drive a van for that money. No being moved several hours off spare , no weekends , no bank holidays , no nights . Wouldn't have to know a rule book back to front plus sectional appendix or read safety notices. No keeping up with wons and pons , having to know where speed restrictions are etc. I have been a driver for four years now. 3.5 qualified and just moved from metro to inter city. Saturday was only my third day on my own and the fog was so thick , I could see barely a car length out of my cab window. Driving up to 125 and seeing the station ramps as they were literally at my front. Really requires a lot of concentration and makes you realise why it's a career that is not overpaid. Of course some people would still do it , but many would retire early and others would just do other work. You would of course still get great drivers , but you would get many more that aren't so good either. As in any walk of life , you pay for the talent. You can be seconds away from career ending incidents several times a day . That wasn't the case when I drove trucks or vans , not ever.

 

[Meerkat]

They wouldn't be getting 70k . Though. It was said up thread that if you halved the money. Some tocs only pay mid 50's to 60 k. So would you really get the best applicants for 25 to 30. I could go and drive a van for that money. No being moved several hours off spare , no weekends , no bank holidays , no nights . Wouldn't have to know a rule book back to front plus sectional appendix or read safety notices. No keeping up with wons and pons , having to know where speed restrictions are etc. I have been a driver for four years now. 3.5 qualified and just moved from metro to inter city. Saturday was only my third day on my own and the fog was so thick , I could see barely a car length out of my cab window. Driving up to 125 and seeing the station ramps as they were literally at my front. Really requires a lot of concentration and makes you realise why it's a career that is not overpaid. Of course some people would still do it , but many would retire early and others would just do other work. You would of course still get great drivers , but you would get many more that aren't so good either. As in any walk of life , you pay for the talent. You can be seconds away from career ending incidents several times a day . That wasn't the case when I drove trucks or vans , not ever.

I took the 'half of that' to be a reference to the £70k, not all drivers pay. Anyway back to Transpennine!

 

[LowLevel]

They wouldn't be getting 70k . Though. It was said up thread that if you halved the money. Some tocs only pay mid 50's to 60 k. So would you really get the best applicants for 25 to 30. I could go and drive a van for that money. No being moved several hours off spare , no weekends , no bank holidays , no nights . Wouldn't have to know a rule book back to front plus sectional appendix or read safety notices. No keeping up with wons and pons , having to know where speed restrictions are etc. I have been a driver for four years now. 3.5 qualified and just moved from metro to inter city. Saturday was only my third day on my own and the fog was so thick , I could see barely a car length out of my cab window. Driving up to 125 and seeing the station ramps as they were literally at my front. Really requires a lot of concentration and makes you realise why it's a career that is not overpaid. Of course some people would still do it , but many would retire early and others would just do other work. You would of course still get great drivers , but you would get many more that aren't so good either. As in any walk of life , you pay for the talent. You can be seconds away from career ending incidents several times a day . That wasn't the case when I drove trucks or vans , not ever.

In your opinion in that case, do you think the drivers of the 90s and before the time privatisation and market forces put driver salaries through the roof (very canny of ASLEF) are of a lower calibre than today where people see the headline wage and think "ooh, I'll have some of that"?

Train driving did become more onerous around the same time of course with increased monitoring and a reduced tolerance of incidents, to give balance.

I spend my entire working life with train drivers and to be fair plenty of the best ones are not necessarily the ones that are only attracted to the headline salary. They tend to be the less effective ones.

 

[baz962]

In your opinion in that case, do you think the drivers of the 90s and before the time privatisation and market forces put driver salaries through the roof (very canny of ASLEF) are of a lower calibre than today where people see the headline wage and think "ooh, I'll have some of that"?

Train driving did become more onerous around the same time of course with increased monitoring and a reduced tolerance of incidents, to give balance.

I spend my entire working life with train drivers and to be fair plenty of the best ones are not necessarily the ones that are only attracted to the headline salary. They tend to be the less effective ones.

I know you spend your life around drivers. Same toc as myself I believe. As of before , yes definitely. Of course drivers nowadays still have incidents. But at my old depot , pretty much every old school driver admitted ( allegedly ) to incidents , many of which were ignored by the signallers. I don't absolutely believe that paying more , prevents all incidents btw. I do however believe that it gives the tocs more talent to choose from . They might still get some poor drivers , but not so many In my opinion.

 

[LowLevel]

I know you spend your life around drivers. Same toc as myself I believe. As of before , yes definitely. Of course drivers nowadays still have incidents. But at my old depot , pretty much every old school driver admitted ( allegedly ) to incidents , many of which were ignored by the signallers. I don't absolutely believe that paying more , prevents all incidents btw. I do however believe that it gives the tocs more talent to choose from . They might still get some poor drivers , but not so many In my opinion.

It's a fair comment I think that the culture is different nowadays and we certainly hurt fewer people, though the trade off is it's a very steep learning curve for those walking in off the street so to speak. On the other hand the advent of phone a friend has watered down the technical side of things a bit and no one is going to ask you take a 1960s diesel loco to bits off your own back now.

We are probably some miles off topic now though

 

[43066]

Why? That would only happen if there were a significant number of skilled drivers who wouldn't have applied for half the money - what other jobs would they be going for to get £70k? I know long haul pilots get huge money but most airline pilots are on less than £70k aren't they?
(this is not in any way saying train drivers are unemployable elsewhere!)

In a former career I earned a good bit more than driver pay. I’m happy to have left that behind for something I actually enjoy - but I certainly wouldn’t be doing this job if it paid half the money as it wouldn’t be worth it. I’m by no means unique - drivers these days come from an incredibly wide range of backgrounds. I’m not sure why driver pays is such an obsession for some people.

most airline pilots are on less than £70k aren't they?

No.

I know you spend your life around drivers. Same toc as myself I believe. As of before , yes definitely. Of course drivers nowadays still have incidents. But at my old depot , pretty much every old school driver admitted ( allegedly ) to incidents , many of which were ignored by the signallers. I don't absolutely believe that paying more , prevents all incidents btw. I do however believe that it gives the tocs more talent to choose from . They might still get some poor drivers , but not so many In my opinion.

Indeed. The salary reflects the fact the job has been professionalised and has increased the pool of people the TOCs can select from. That should be regarded as a very good thing. The other side of this is an inverted snobbery (thankfully dying out now) towards those who come into the job from other careers who aren’t regarded as “proper” railwaymen because we didn’t work up to driving by spending years scrubbing toilets etc. That is nonsense of course and jobs should go to those who are best able to carry them out to a high standard.

 

[Wolfie]

The perfect answer would be to put all us drivers on the terms, conditions & salary of the highest paid TOC (AWC I think) and then I’m sure everything will fall into place

Hahaha.... Based on precedent the HMT approach to harmonisation is lowest common denominator.

 

[Class 170101]

I would gladly have a massive route and traction card because I like variety though the DfT approach these days seems to be to assign the smallest route and traction card they can to each depot (particularly the case with new depots) which often results in cross-cover being impossible.

Whilst a wide route card has its advantages including diversionary route knowledge to keep passengers on the rails vice RR Buses, the problem would be how to keep it refreshed and upto date. I'm not sure the safety culture will accept that these days in the way other have spoken about certain depots like Saltley.

In terms of TPE that could include Doncaster to York and maybe Hull to Doncaster and Doncaster to Leeds. I am sure there are other routes this TOC could have but how RDW or an increase in the base roster would it need to keep it up?

 

[Bald Rick]

I know long haul pilots get huge money but most airline pilots are on less than £70k aren't they?

Depends on your definition of airline pilot. To use easyJet as an example, a newly qualified Second Officer with them will earn around £40k, a First Officer around £55k. A Captain will be into 6 figures. All will be flying the aircraft at some point, but the Captain is in charge.

Worth pointing out that to get to Second / First Officer Level with easyJet, you need one of the following:

1) 500 flying hours type rated on an A320 (in the cockpit!!)
2) 1000 flying hours of which 500 must be on aircraft over 100 times tonnes Maximum Take Off Weight
3) to go on their pilot training course (when they are running, they are not now) which will cost you £120k up front. That gets you to Second officer. After a couple of years you might be elevated to First Officer.

 

[43066]

2) 1000 flying hours of which 500 must be on aircraft over 100 times Maximum Take Off Weight

Not sure I’d want to be a passenger on an aircraft over 100 times its maximum takeoff weight!

 

[Moonshot]

Getting back on topic, ASLEF are perfectly entitled to withdraw from a rest day agreement. Obviously it will cost drivers a lot of money in overtime premium.

 

[greyman42]

Getting back on topic, ASLEF are perfectly entitled to withdraw from a rest day agreement. Obviously it will cost drivers a lot of money in overtime premium.

Not if the driver chooses to carry on working overtime.

 

[Moonshot]

Not if the driver chooses to carry on working overtime.

I can assure you rest day working has been removed from daily rosters. This has left some jobs uncovered.

 

[dk1]

Not if the driver chooses to carry on working overtime.

Would depend if in dispute in which case drivers would then be advised to withdraw from any form of cooperation including HGD & agreeing to come off roster. When it has happened in the past only Sunday overtime was exempt.

 

[387star]

GTR is six months for drivers apparently…

Only southern