Transpennine Industrial Relations

[43066]

How does spare work at your depot? From my experience it’s pretty much the same everywhere.

Fair enough then.

That particular poster isn’t traincrew, and indeed isn’t employed by a TOC, so you’ll be waiting a long time.

I'll happily give you a million quid if this ever happens. TOCs prefer overtime to increasing establishments. Overtime is NEVER going away so needs to be dealt with. Incentives through pay work and is well established across many many industries. It can be reduced and that should always be the end goal. Getting the TOCs to increase establishments is a huge mountain to climb.

I didn’t realise the DI uplift at your place was so generous (when you did it). I should never have left! .

Can you show me a payslip of a tpe driver earning £100k a year please? Thanks

A few at my depot will have done it (not TPE, but we have a decent RDW agreement which helps).

They’ve bloody well worked for every penny of it. I should have done around 80% of that come April and that has involved many lonely hours in a cab. It doesn’t go far in London either.

Then again, as I type this, I’m wearing mustard coloured trousers, and I went to Waitrose earlier, that’s a sure sign of epic wealth?!

 

[ComUtoR]

I’ll take that bet. You better start saving, and don’t bank on too much RDW!

Apparently I can easily earn £100k a year so give me 10yrs to save and give the TOCs 10yrs to employ the staff...

TOC rostering, as has been said multiple times, needs a complete overhaul. Even the times where my TOC has increased recruitment it still isn't enough. Staff turnover doesn't get dealt with (natural or otherwise) and there is no contingency for moments in time like this where full flexibility and a robust establishment would have mitigated against many of today's issues.

The second staffing levels increase and you get a glut of people sitting in messrooms there is a cutback. Senior Management don't like excess staff siting about and see it as excess to be cut. Personally I see the excess staff as a system working as intended. If all your jobs are covered, you got a cover Driver, Drivers on leave and you still got a spare man sitting about then the system is working. Yes there needs to be a balance and yes more staff is the end goal but after all my years it has never materialised.

In this current climate do you really believe that the DfT is going to authorise an increase in establishments across the board ? Not forgetting that the calculation for an establishment is based on the number of jobs and as the service gets cut back and we struggle to recover from the 'The Big C'. Establishments will naturally come down in number.

FYI, I haven't worked a rest day in about 5yrs

 

[Bald Rick]

In this current climate do you really believe that the DfT is going to authorise an increase in establishments across the board ?

Who knows. I can’t see many establishments increasing, but I can see all work being covered without RDW. Indeed a couple of TOCs are doing it now.

 

[ComUtoR]

Who knows. I can’t see many establishments increasing, but I can see all work being covered without RDW. Indeed a couple of TOCs are doing it now.

Same at my TOC.

The establishment hasn't changed but the reduction in the service means we are running around 60(ish) % Simple logic dictates that there isn't a need for RDW on a normal level. However, today we had 2x RDW and still had a few SP (spare) Drivers going unused. The system is inefficient.

My fear is that the establishment is cut back to reflect the reduction in the service but then cannot respond to any increasing demand. I would hope that the TOC sees a benefit of a greater Establishment/Jobs ratio.

 

[dk1]

Same at my TOC.

The establishment hasn't changed but the reduction in the service means we are running around 60(ish) % Simple logic dictates that there isn't a need for RDW on a normal level. However, today we had 2x RDW and still had a few SP (spare) Drivers going unused. The system is inefficient.

RDW will always come before a spare driver if it’s outside their time movement. Could also be a route/traction thing.

 

[Moonshot]

Apparently I can easily earn £100k a year so give me 10yrs to save and give the TOCs 10yrs to employ the staff...

TOC rostering, as has been said multiple times, needs a complete overhaul. Even the times where my TOC has increased recruitment it still isn't enough. Staff turnover doesn't get dealt with (natural or otherwise) and there is no contingency for moments in time like this where full flexibility and a robust establishment would have mitigated against many of today's issues.

The second staffing levels increase and you get a glut of people sitting in messrooms there is a cutback. Senior Management don't like excess staff siting about and see it as excess to be cut. Personally I see the excess staff as a system working as intended. If all your jobs are covered, you got a cover Driver, Drivers on leave and you still got a spare man sitting about then the system is working. Yes there needs to be a balance and yes more staff is the end goal but after all my years it has never materialised.

In this current climate do you really believe that the DfT is going to authorise an increase in establishments across the board ? Not forgetting that the calculation for an establishment is based on the number of jobs and as the service gets cut back and we struggle to recover from the 'The Big C'. Establishments will naturally come down in number.

FYI, I haven't worked a rest day in about 5yrs

Absolutely nothing wrong with not working rest days, it's a choice you are perfectly entitled to make. Of course at the other extreme, there are staff who get in as many as they can without breaking Hidden rules. With some TOCs paying more than others, like I said, it is possible to get up to a £100k overall salary......does take a bit of doing in the sense that you would be practically living at a depot though.

 

[muz379]

Absolutely nothing wrong with not working rest days, it's a choice you are perfectly entitled to make. Of course at the other extreme, there are staff who get in as many as they can without breaking Hidden rules. With some TOCs paying more than others, like I said, it is possible to get up to a £100k overall salary......does take a bit of doing in the sense that you would be practically living at a depot though.

Indeed most depots have a mix of staff that do every RDW and 12 hour days they can , those that do a couple here and there and those that never do any and just work their flat week . All down to personal choice and finances . I know in the past when I've wanted to save up for something I've hammered the OT for a bit to save up quicker .

 

[Falcon1200]

Indeed most depots have a mix of staff that do every RDW and 12 hour days they can , those that do a couple here and there and those that never do any and just work their flat week . All down to personal choice and finances .

Exactly the same in my (office-based but shift work) location too. The problem the railway (and no doubt other similar industries) has is variable demand for staff, ie: Do you provide sufficient staff to cover every possible eventuality, not just holidays and sickness but unexpected retirement, a glut of retirements, maternity/paternity leave, jury service, etc, in which case for much of the time there will be an excess of spare staff; Or do you cover for a reasonable level of shortage but then depend on overtime in unusual circumstances ? Depending on overtime works if there are enough staff prepared, able and willing to do it, but if there are not, and especially if the relationship between staff and management has broken down, shortages of key staff such as Drivers and Guards will have an immediate effect on service delivery. And of course a global pandemic magnifies the issue hugely !

 

[Moonshot]

Exactly the same in my (office-based but shift work) location too. The problem the railway (and no doubt other similar industries) has is variable demand for staff, ie: Do you provide sufficient staff to cover every possible eventuality, not just holidays and sickness but unexpected retirement, a glut of retirements, maternity/paternity leave, jury service, etc, in which case for much of the time there will be an excess of spare staff; Or do you cover for a reasonable level of shortage but then depend on overtime in unusual circumstances ? Depending on overtime works if there are enough staff prepared, able and willing to do it, but if there are not, and especially if the relationship between staff and management has broken down, shortages of key staff such as Drivers and Guards will have an immediate effect on service delivery. And of course a global pandemic magnifies the issue hugely !

Not forgetting that some areas of the network on Sundays are covered by overtime only. Also, staff leaving or retiring generally have to give some significant length of notice...which gives time for a trainee to become at least semi productive.

 

[wobman]

Not forgetting that some areas of the network on Sundays are covered by overtime only. Also, staff leaving or retiring generally have to give some significant length of notice...which gives time for a trainee to become at least semi productive.

Covid has scuppered a lot of that were i work, we have had traincrew retiring and moving tocs etc but the replacements have been waiting for DIs. Some waiting for months before getting DIs and starting their hours then another 9 months doing their hours.
Let's see if the training bubbles return and that slows down the training process again !

 

[Dr Hoo]

Not forgetting that some areas of the network on Sundays are covered by overtime only. Also, staff leaving or retiring generally have to give some significant length of notice...which gives time for a trainee to become at least semi productive.

Is that actually the case (especially for train crew, which often need lengthy training)? How much notice are TPE (or any other operator's staff) obliged to give?

With the best will in the world even if a TOC has a 'talent pool' stuffed with bright-eyed and bushy-tailed individuals who are desperate to work for them, those people will often have to give notice to their current employer in turn.

Another issue that used to be the case back when I was in BR area management was that many train crew seem to have vast amounts of leave and lieu days owing. Comments like, "I've decided to quit in three months time; that means that my last day is tomorrow", were not unknown. Perhaps things have changed since the 1980s.

 

[Moonshot]

Is that actually the case (especially for train crew, which often need lengthy training)? How much notice are TPE (or any other operator's staff) obliged to give?

With the best will in the world even if a TOC has a 'talent pool' stuffed with bright-eyed and bushy-tailed individuals who are desperate to work for them, those people will often have to give notice to their current employer in turn.

Another issue that used to be the case back when I was in BR area management was that many train crew seem to have vast amounts of leave and lieu days owing. Comments like, "I've decided to quit in three months time; that means that my last day is tomorrow", were not unknown. Perhaps things have changed since the 1980s.

They certainly have changed.......but in any event a leaver who gives 9 months notice ( driver for example ) is replaced by a bright eyed bushy tailed individual who would ( if all goes to plan ) take 9 months to get to a productive stage. This fact was just recently enforced by a manager friend of mine who passed out 4 trainees in a week ....the same week being one where he said goodbye to 4 experienced leavers. All well and good .....except for the fact that the newly passed out guys still have some considerable route learning ahead of them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2021 ==

Covid has scuppered a lot of that were i work, we have had traincrew retiring and moving tocs etc but the replacements have been waiting for DIs. Some waiting for months before getting DIs and starting their hours then another 9 months doing their hours.
Let's see if the training bubbles return and that slows down the training process again !

indeed

 

[Bald Rick]

Also, staff leaving or retiring generally have to give some significant length of notice...which gives time for a trainee to become at least semi productive.

that is generally not the case for drivers. notice periods are (usually) much shorter than than the time it takes to recruit a driver, let alone get them productive.

 

[Horizon22]

They certainly have changed.......but in any event a leaver who gives 9 months notice ( driver for example ) is replaced by a bright eyed bushy tailed individual who would ( if all goes to plan ) take 9 months to get to a productive stage. This fact was just recently enforced by a manager friend of mine who passed out 4 trainees in a week ....the same week being one where he said goodbye to 4 experienced leavers. All well and good .....except for the fact that the newly passed out guys still have some considerable route learning ahead of them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2021 ==


indeed

Yep crew resourcing is in constant flux. The poaching of drivers from TOC to TOC due to different conditions and rosters etc. doesn’t help, especially when there are different companies with multiple depots within a commutable distance (South London comes to mind).

But 9 months? I thought it was generally 3 months notice? You’re not training up a driver that quickly! Therefore you have to plan to recruitment before the vacancy exists and some senior managers never look too kindly on recruiting into substantive roles that are already filled…

There are resource planning teams who look at these risks but forecasting is never an exact science & recently of course you’ve had slightly more retireees than normal and significant delays getting trainees passed out (let alone productive on all routes as you mentioned). How well these resource planning teams work I don’t know, but I do know they tend to look heavily at depot information and are data/trend-driven working alongside crew managers to look at risks.

Ultimately one major issue is the recruitment process can be excruciatingly slow and I think needs radical overhaul at most TOCs.

 

[Moonshot]

that is generally not the case for drivers. notice periods are (usually) much shorter than than the time it takes to recruit a driver, let alone get them productive.

I'm just going off the last guy I know who retired.....9 months notice apparently. I ve never checked that particular term and condition myself.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm just going off the last guy I know who retired.....9 months notice apparently. I ve never checked that particular term and condition myself.

that is quite unusual. I’m aware of one depot where 5 drivers all handed in their retirement notices at roughly the same time, with 3 months notice, and stopped doing rest days at the same time. Cue trouble for the roc
concerned.

 

[ComUtoR]

12 weeks at my TOC and even that is discretionary

 

[O L Leigh]

The problem the railway (and no doubt other similar industries) has is variable demand for staff, ie: Do you provide sufficient staff to cover every possible eventuality, not just holidays and sickness but unexpected retirement, a glut of retirements, maternity/paternity leave, jury service, etc, in which case for much of the time there will be an excess of spare staff

Well the demand is variable only in the sense that it is not always the case that the same number of jobs will be left open after the daily mark-up has been done. The number of running turns, route refreshers, safety briefs and so on is fixed every day while the number guaranteed annual leave is limited to a certain number which helps to keep things under control. However, as you outlined, there are a number of other reasons for absence, some of which are more prevalent than others.

However, I think that what you're hinting at is where depot numbers dip below the establishment. Clearly this is a big issue and has a huge impact on it's ability to cover it's own work, as the fewer drivers there are the harder they would need to work.

The amount of spare coverage at each depot is set by the depot establishment calculation. This is normally a percentage of the number of drivers needed to cover running turns (where I work this is 50%, or 45% where the number required to cover running turns is 97 or more). These additional drivers are normally sufficient to cover any turns left uncovered. As I've mentioned previously, before the pandemic this number appears to be more or less right, with some days having a few surplus drivers sat spare and some days when rest-day working was required to cover the remaining gaps. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as rest-day working provides the flexibility that helps rosters cover all the work, but where a TOC habitually runs depots at less than the establishment level you end up with a reliance on it which can impact on service resilience. I discussed this yesterday at post #263.

There is a degree to which a TOC can plan for changes in the workforce, but you will never be able to replace a driver like-for-like due to the disparity between the outgoing driver's notice period and how long it takes for a replacement to reach full productivity. TOCs that have a large turnover seem to understand this a bit better than those that historically have had a lower turnover. They basically have driver training programmes that run almost continuously, with new trainees being dropped in at one end and qualified drivers being squeezed out the other. Whether the pandemic means that the training of new drivers will be able to keep pace with the rate at which existing drivers are leaving the industry seems to be the major challenge at the moment.

 

[Meerkat]

Another issue that used to be the case back when I was in BR area management was that many train crew seem to have vast amounts of leave and lieu days owing. Comments like, "I've decided to quit in three months time; that means that my last day is tomorrow", were not unknown. Perhaps things have changed since the 1980s.

In my non-railway job I don't think we were allowed to do that. They had the right to make you work three months then give you the leave and lieu in cash on your way out.

PS does a ban on RDW mean that its much harder for drivers to get the leave they want?

 

[Robertj21a]

What's the notice period for rail staff generally- i.e drivers, signalmen, ticket office, cleaners etc ??

 

[Watershed]

What's the notice period for rail staff generally- i.e drivers, signalmen, ticket office, cleaners etc ??

Depends massively by company and grade. But generally notice periods of more than 3 months are rare.

 

[Robertj21a]

Depends massively by company and grade. But generally notice periods of more than 3 months are rare.

Thanks. Just rather surprising when many (most?) occupations require just one month.

 

[43066]

Depends massively by company and grade. But generally notice periods of more than 3 months are rare.

GTR is six months for drivers apparently…

 

[dk1]

12 weeks at my TOC and even that is discretionary

Yeah same here with mine. Never known anyone have any problems. Their managers are usually very supportive & amicable. No reason to be any other way.

 

[ComUtoR]

Thanks. Just rather surprising when many (most?) occupations require just one month.

We used to be 2 weeks but it was changed a few years back. Part of the reason it was increased is that it is a reciprocal agreement.

If the TOC was to let you go they would also have to give you 12 weeks notice. So there is a benefit of a long notice period. There is also a financial benefit because lieu of notice becomes a more significant sum.

I suppose that ASLEF saw more of a benefit than any penalty.

 

[Robertj21a]

We used to be 2 weeks but it was changed a few years back. Part of the reason it was increased is that it is a reciprocal agreement.

If the TOC was to let you go they would also have to give you 12 weeks notice. So there is a benefit of a long notice period. There is also a financial benefit because lieu of notice becomes a more significant sum.

I suppose that ASLEF saw more of a benefit than any penalty.

Thanks, I can certainly see the benefits in certain circumstances, particularly in those industries where staff want to remain long term.
I'm just used to having greater flexibility to consider moves elsewhere if it should suit me.

 

[Falcon1200]

Another issue that used to be the case back when I was in BR area management was that many train crew seem to have vast amounts of leave and lieu days owing. Comments like, "I've decided to quit in three months time; that means that my last day is tomorrow", were not unknown. Perhaps things have changed since the 1980s.

When I retired (early) from Network Rail in 2016 I was required to give 3 months notice. Having (deliberately) saved up Annual Leave my last shift was actually 2 months after I handed my notice in. I was rather touched when my manager asked if it was anything he had done which caused me to decide to leave, I was happy to assure him it was not (although it was other work-related issues).

There is a degree to which a TOC can plan for changes in the workforce, but you will never be able to replace a driver like-for-like due to the disparity between the outgoing driver's notice period and how long it takes for a replacement to reach full productivity.

Yes, and the same goes for other roles too; In my case, normally somebody would be promoted from within the office to fill my post, then someone else would in turn have to fill the vacancy created. That would always take longer than 2, or 3, months, therefore another circumstance in which overtime working would be necessary to keep jobs covered.

 

[Horizon22]

3 months is fairly standard in a number of roles I’ve seen in the railway. Junior roles are normally slightly shorter (but still 1-2 months).

 

[Efini92]

Can you show me a payslip of a tpe driver earning £100k a year please? Thanks

No but I can point you in the direction of them.

 

[wobman]

No but I can point you in the direction of them.

OK