Transdev Blazefield

[John HG1]

What seems to be another side-effect of not having local knowledge of the area. Under Service Updates on the Harrogate website there is a note that "The Royal Parade is taking place on 21st & 22nd May!", suggesting a Royal visit. Looking at the stops missing info, I rather suspect this refers to the road "Royal Parade" where there have been roadworks recently. At least the route & stops affected are correct, unlike a recent one where road names were wrong and a right turn was flagged as a left one.

Checked again this morning (14th May) and it now refers to Royal Parade being closed", so I'll have to pack my Union Jack away.

 

[theblackwatch]

For any forum members who happen to be in the Harrogate area on Tuesday evening (May 19th), I am doing a presentation entitled "Buses in Yorkshire - 2025" at the Harrogate Transport Touring Society meeting which takes place at Killinghall Village Hall (postcode HG3 2DW, on the '36' route) from 19.30 to 21.30. It will feature many pictures of the Harrogate fleet and plenty of other Transdev stuff as well - Team Pennine, Keighley and Coastliner/York & Country all appear too, along with lots of other firms, some of which are no longer with us. All welcome, please bring along a couple of quid for tea/coffee/biscuits/raffle!

(Posted with moderator's permission)

 

[YorkRailFan]

B7RLE 1837 has returned to Harrogate from York. B7RLE 1718 has transferred from York to Flyer.

 

[Russel]

Are there any plans to replace the Coastliner fleet?

I did the 840 from Whitby to York yesterday evening and despite being a stunning route, what struck me was how the Gemini3s were starting to look very worn and not to the Coastliner standards of old.

If no new buses are planned, a refurb program is certainly needed.

 

[M60lad]

Seems that Burnley Bus Company are having problems keeping some of their MAINLINE services to time at the moment due to roadworks near Colne Railway Station controlled by temporary traffic lights which is adding to the general traffic, yesterday for instance some services ended up running about 30mins late by the time they got to Colne Farmfoods.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I did the 840 from Whitby to York yesterday evening and despite being a stunning route, what struck me was how the Gemini3s were starting to look very worn and not to the Coastliner standards of old.

If no new buses are planned, a refurb program is certainly needed.

I can wholeheartedly agree. The seats are worn out and the chargers usually don't work. 10 years of intensive service is showing its toll. The problem at the moment is that the York/Coastliner operation is already short on buses, Transdev might not be able to afford having buses out of service for weeks (possibly months) to get refurbished as they don't have enough buses to work the missing diagrams.

 

[Russel]

I can wholeheartedly agree. The seats are worn out and the chargers usually don't work. 10 years of intensive service is showing its toll. The problem at the moment is that the York/Coastliner operation is already short on buses, Transdev might not be able to afford having buses out of service for weeks (possibly months) to get refurbished as they don't have enough buses to work the missing diagrams.

How much longer can the can be kicked down the road though?

As you say, they've had 10 years of intensive service, at some point probably in the not too distant future, reliability will start to drop and then something will have to be done.

Some of the gradients these buses have to undertake on a daily basis, slowing to a crawl on some of the hills must be absolutely hammering the buses, mechanically.

 

[YorkRailFan]

How much longer can the can be kicked down the road though?

As you say, they've had 10 years of intensive service, at some point probably in the not too distant future, reliability will start to drop and then something will have to be done.

Some of the gradients these buses have to undertake on a daily basis, slowing to a crawl on some of the hills must be absolutely hammering the buses, mechanically.

Reliability has already dropped. Coastliner had 2 B7RLEs on loan from Harrogate & Keighley recently to cover for Gemini 3s that were out of action. Single deckers on the long run to coast are all too common.

It's been a fun few days on 1772. Yesterday on the 74 and today on the M31. The driver told me that the heating is stuck cranked all the way up and can't be turned off. Far from ideal in this weather! The driver has 1772 for all three days this weekends so it's all windows open!

 

[Andyh82]

With the fare cap, when a customer pays £3 and travels all the way to Scarborough, are Transdev still getting from the government an amount that would take it up to what it would otherwise have been (presumably £10+ by now?), and the same with concessions?

 

[RustySpoons]

Seems that Burnley Bus Company are having problems keeping some of their MAINLINE services to time at the moment due to roadworks near Colne Railway Station controlled by temporary traffic lights which is adding to the general traffic, yesterday for instance some services ended up running about 30mins late by the time they got to Colne Farmfoods.

I feel for the duty managers at Burnley, it can't be easy running any services at the moment. There are countless sets of roadworks between Burnley and Colne on the Mainline route. Most of the local services have some form of road works and/or traffic control. And that's without taking into account the absolute disaster that is the Town2Turf development. It can take upwards of 10 minutes to leave the bus station at times. Then of course you've got the ridiculous one way system on Manchester Road. You can often be stuck in gridlock traffic in the middle of a Sunday afternoon. At rush hour it's chaos.

With the fare cap, when a customer pays £3 and travels all the way to Scarborough, are Transdev still getting from the government an amount that would take it up to what it would otherwise have been (presumably £10+ by now?), and the same with concessions?

I could be wrong but I believe it's similar to the ENTCS reimbursements in that they get a percentage of what the difference in fare is.

It's put operators between a rock and a hard place, they could opt out of the scheme and charge regular fares but people would be less likely to use the bus, or opt in and get some reimbursement and hopefully carry more passengers.

 

[dmncf]

I could be wrong but I believe it's similar to the ENTCS reimbursements in that they get a percentage of what the difference in fare is.

I can see that reimbursement method working for a short term scheme, but now we're over 3 years since the England single bus fare cap was introduced. There must come a point when what each journey's fare was prior to 1 Jan 2023 becomes meaningless. And many bus routes will have changed or be totally new since 1 Jan 2023. I'm puzzled how the reimbursement method works.

 

[Leedsbusman]

I can see that reimbursement method working for a short term scheme, but now we're over 3 years since the England single bus fare cap was introduced. There must come a point when what each journey's fare was prior to 1 Jan 2023 becomes meaningless. And many bus routes will have changed or be totally new since 1 Jan 2023. I'm puzzled how the reimbursement method works.

It’s a largely fixed reimbursement based on 2022 fare levels and patronage adjusted for network change and inflation. Something designed for the short term that has lasted much longer which is why some urban operators have withdrawn.

 

[stevieinselby]

I can see that reimbursement method working for a short term scheme, but now we're over 3 years since the England single bus fare cap was introduced. There must come a point when what each journey's fare was prior to 1 Jan 2023 becomes meaningless. And many bus routes will have changed or be totally new since 1 Jan 2023. I'm puzzled how the reimbursement method works.

When the scheme first started, operators got a lump sum fund, paid every 3 months in advance, that was intended to cover the difference between the actual fare income received (after allowing for increased ridership due to the reduced fare) and the income that they would have had if it were not for the cap (ie, what they were getting before the cap was introduced), although subject to a maximum national cap. I believe operators have had to maintain a list of "shadow fares", which is what they would be charging if not for the cap, and which can only increase in line with inflation, and this is used to determine the lost revenue – although I've no idea how that is supposed to work with new or substantially changed services. Is that still the same, or has the system changed since then?

It’s a largely fixed reimbursement based on 2022 fare levels and patronage adjusted for network change and inflation. Something designed for the short term that has lasted much longer which is why some urban operators have withdrawn.

I suspect that – especially with the cap being raised from £2 to £3 – a lot of operators based in small-to-medium towns have fares that are little higher than the cap, if at all. Safeguard, who pulled out when it was still £2, have a maximum fare on their services of £2.70 anyway. If your maximum single fare isn't much over £3 then the admin of getting the reimbursement is probably more hassle than it's worth.

 

[Man of Kent]

When the scheme first started, operators got a lump sum fund, paid every 3 months in advance, that was intended to cover the difference between the actual fare income received (after allowing for increased ridership due to the reduced fare) and the income that they would have had if it were not for the cap (ie, what they were getting before the cap was introduced), although subject to a maximum national cap. I believe operators have had to maintain a list of "shadow fares", which is what they would be charging if not for the cap, and which can only increase in line with inflation, and this is used to determine the lost revenue – although I've no idea how that is supposed to work with new or substantially changed services. Is that still the same, or has the system changed since then?

I suspect that – especially with the cap being raised from £2 to £3 – a lot of operators based in small-to-medium towns have fares that are little higher than the cap, if at all. Safeguard, who pulled out when it was still £2, have a maximum fare on their services of £2.70 anyway. If your maximum single fare isn't much over £3 then the admin of getting the reimbursement is probably more hassle than it's worth.

Also the overall pot is fixed, so there is no reward for carrying extra passengers. Indeed, if the overall number of passengers goes up, everyone gets a lower amount per passenger.

 

[Leedsbusman]

Also the overall pot is fixed, so there is no reward for carrying extra passengers. Indeed, if the overall number of passengers goes up, everyone gets a lower amount per passenger.

I'm not sure that's correct. While the pot is fixed, that means there is no adjustment for generated passengers so if you carry extra you get their fares.

 

[stevieinselby]

Also the overall pot is fixed, so there is no reward for carrying extra passengers. Indeed, if the overall number of passengers goes up, everyone gets a lower amount per passenger.

When the scheme was initially launched, and was expected to run for a short, time-limited period, the number of generated passengers was estimated and the lump sum based on that estimate – so operators who attracted more passengers than that would get to pocket all those £2 coins from the extra passengers. With the scheme now having been extended and now apparently running indefinitely, I don't know to what extent any extra passengers attracted in this period are adjusted out in the next period, or whether the original estimates continue to be used.

 

[SCH117X]

Nottingham City Transport are reporting

The 50% increase in the Bus Fare Cap at the start of 2025 has contributed to decline in bus usage around the country, with NCT passenger numbers in the last year falling by 3.77%.

https://www.nctx.co.uk/june26change

Probably less impact on a number of Transdevs services as £3 is still a bargain compared to what went before and at times I have seen pretty full eCitaros on the 24 when pre Covid and the fair cap a Solo was considered adequate.

 

[Deerfold]

Nottingham City Transport are reporting


https://www.nctx.co.uk/june26change

Probably less impact on a number of Transdevs services as £3 is still a bargain compared to what went before and at times I have seen pretty full eCitaros on the 24 when pre Covid and the fair cap a Solo was considered adequate.

Although pre-Covid it was hourly.

It's now up to 8 a day from the 4 that were running for a while.

 

[Leedsbusman]

Although pre-Covid it was hourly.

It's now up to 8 a day from the 4 that were running for a while.

It wasn’t hourly with Solos, they went on after it dropped to 90/120 mins in Sept 2018.

 

[317 forever]

eCitaro 1007 appeared to have a problem parked in the loading bay for the Harrogate Convention Centre just after noon with the driver with a hi viz on standing at the rear on their mobile. As it recommenced its route 2 working after a few minutes and remainded in service for its full duties presumably it was a case of switch it off and switch it back on again

That was the one I rode on Saturday, and it was fine.

I did notice a contrast between the electric and hybrid Citaros. I sat on the right immediately in front of the rearmost seats. Whereas on the electric one, a panel obscured the view to the left, there was no such problem on the hybrid one.

I rode an E400EV on route 36 in Leeds, admittedly yesterday. I liked the drink holder hole in the mini-table just right of the solo seats. I therefore put my soft drink can inside for the ride. By way of an original venture, the bus even had recycling bins.

 

[SCH117X]

I rode an E400EV on route 36 in Leeds, admittedly yesterday. I liked the drink holder hole in the mini-table just right of the solo seats. I therefore put my soft drink can inside for the ride. By way of an original venture, the bus even had recycling bins.

The 7900Es had recycling bins; a prediction of their future.

 

[GWVillager]

I rode an E400EV on route 36 in Leeds, admittedly yesterday. I liked the drink holder hole in the mini-table just right of the solo seats. I therefore put my soft drink can inside for the ride. By way of an original venture, the bus even had recycling bins.

How was the air cooling on the E400EV keeping up? I know that a lot of the Manchester ones have remarkably effective cooling, but I’m too scared to try out the Harrogate ones in this heat!

 

[RustySpoons]

Nottingham City Transport are reporting


https://www.nctx.co.uk/june26change

Probably less impact on a number of Transdevs services as £3 is still a bargain compared to what went before and at times I have seen pretty full eCitaros on the 24 when pre Covid and the fair cap a Solo was considered adequate.

Interesting, and I did wonder if that would be the case.

When the cap was £2 I used the bus regularly to nip into town. Even if I needed a connecting service I could get to my destination and back home again for £8. It was reasonable and was worth the slight inconvenience of waiting for the bus.

Now with the £3 cap I may as well drive into town and pay for parking. An extra couple of quid on the return fare doesn't sound like a lot, but it is often enough to pay for my parking in town, so I may as well drive at my own convenience.

 

[buslad1988]

Interesting, and I did wonder if that would be the case.

When the cap was £2 I used the bus regularly to nip into town. Even if I needed a connecting service I could get to my destination and back home again for £8. It was reasonable and was worth the slight inconvenience of waiting for the bus.

Now with the £3 cap I may as well drive into town and pay for parking. An extra couple of quid on the return fare doesn't sound like a lot, but it is often enough to pay for my parking in town, so I may as well drive at my own convenience.

Which demonstrates the fine lines between people’s perception of value for money or not.

£2 though in the current climate simply isn’t sustainable. The general public do not realise all the back office and hidden costs in running a business service, and they’ll probably never understand.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Which demonstrates the fine lines between people’s perception of value for money or not.

£2 though in the current climate simply isn’t sustainable. The general public do not realise all the back office and hidden costs in running a business service, and they’ll probably never understand.

Agree, but also this is why public transport should be a public service and not ran for profit.

What the £2 cap shows is that if the bus is a cheaper option people will take it, if driving is cheaper people won't take the bus. Why would you take something less convenient that costs more money?

 

[Bungle965]

Let’s not turn this into another thread around the pro’s and cons of the £2 bus fare please

 

[317 forever]

How was the air cooling on the E400EV keeping up? I know that a lot of the Manchester ones have remarkably effective cooling, but I’m too scared to try out the Harrogate ones in this heat!

While I didn't notice the air cooling as such, I did not find it too hot despite being the Sunday during the heatwave. So, it did seem to work.

Mine was a 74 reg example. Far be it for me to suggest that it might go wrong on the newer 25 reg examples

 

[SCH117X]

Mine was a 74 reg example. Far be it for me to suggest that it might go wrong on the newer 25 reg examples

The 74/25 regs are mixed up and do not dictate build order

 

[MCRTransitYT]

Does anybody have a picture of an article showing 509 YX69 NTM on fire as according to West Yorkshire Information Service (WYIS), it has been burnt down but I surprisingly didnt find any articles about it

 

[Russel]

Does anybody have a picture of an article showing 509 YX69 NTM on fire as according to West Yorkshire Information Service (WYIS), it has been burnt down but I surprisingly didnt find any articles about it

There has been numerous E200 MMC fires over the last couple of years, I wonder what makes them so susceptible to going up in flames?