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Transdev Blazefield
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YorkRailFan
Established Member
RustySpoons
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and in the comments under the posting its confirmed 1837 at least will remain in use at Starbeck fror the 21 or 727H. 1838 apparently needs a repair which it may or may not get.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
stevieinselby
Established Member
Intriguing – out of the 7 that remain, 5 have been in use today and all 7 have been in use this week, although they often don't complete a full day's service. I wonder if Transdev have some more eCitaros on order to replace them, selling them without having anything to replace them with would be premature, unless they're planning on bringing the old diesels back into service? It also seems strange that the 21 has gone back to using knackered old Volvo B7RLEs for the last couple of days instead of eCitaros.Bus and Coach Centre has the Harrogate Volvo electrics for salewww.facebook.com
They have more eCitaros than they need; the 20 vehicle order was mooted when the 7 was half hourly and still stayed at 20 when it was largely cut to hourly.
Suspect the availability is via the leasing company as 805 was going off lease and maybe they are thinking it might be simpler to shift more than one.
Suspect the availability is via the leasing company as 805 was going off lease and maybe they are thinking it might be simpler to shift more than one.
RustySpoons
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The Volvo Electrics were pretty much new technology at the time and their longevity was questioned by myself and others with Alex Hornby who was making a big fuss about how good they were for the environment.
Unless they're upgraded at great expense I can't see them having much of a service life after Harrogate. A driver told me that they only really have a range of 20 miles now, though can't confirm if that's true. But even as they are, any company taking them on will almost certainly require the availability of opportunity charging during the day otherwise what good will a second hand early tech battery bus be that can only do a very limited amount of miles before it needs to come back to the depot for a charge?
stevieinselby
Established Member
Battery technology was not that new in 2018 ... First York got their electric Versas in 2014, and while they have had some problems in the past, those seem to have all been resolved and they are now regularly and reliably doing daily shifts of up to 12 hours on a single charge. Or did you mean the opportunity charging was new tech? I can certainly imagine that the constant cycles of fast charging would have shortened the battery life far more than if they had just put in big enough batteries to do a full day's shift. (If the battery range is the only problem with the buses then I'm surprised they can't fit new batteries in place of the pantographs)
Great_Western
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Aren't the York Versa's not on their third set of batteries now though? That must have cost First some serious money.
Battery tech has come on light-years in the last decade or so; if you look at the electric buses being sold now, they're practically completely different vehicles to what was being sold in 2014 or even 2018. In 2018 it may not have been new technology, but it wasn't quite as ready for prime time as it is now.
It's no doubt that the already smaller batteries in the Volvos combined with the opportunity charging day in day out is what has nerfed their usable range though.
Main issue with Volvos is spare part availibility or rather than the lack of it now they are out of warranty. Stagecoach West Scotland have six so it might be they acquire some to act as "Christmas Trees". The original cost was grant aided.
Dwarfer1979
Member
Possibly not, depends what arrangement they have in place for battery supply as you can lease them as even after they are no longer useful for moving a bus there is more than enough capacity for a multitude of other uses so there are plenty of ways or arranging this. Even if buying, for our electrics, we have worked out the savings in maintenance & running costs covers the cost of replacement batteries so the financial cost can be worked up. On Early vehicles battery life was expected to be around 5-7 years before their capacity had dropped to the point they cause operational issues and needed to be replaced but later models using different chemistries appear to be lasting better and it is possible they may get to 10 years before replacement.
There are plenty of people still running electrics from 2018 and except for their range due to smaller battery capacities they are no different to what is currently sold and still work fine if they have their batteries replaced when due. If people like Transdev hadn't adopted early we wouldn't be where we are now, without early experience and early orders to justify manufacturers developing models we wouldn't have what we have now (you may have the Chinese manufacturers since they have a big home market established but even they may not have bothered if no one was buying in the first place to re-engineer to UK specs)
The Volvos at Harrogate are unusual for the UK but it is a model & charging arrangement much more common in Europe, they weren't some unusual experiment that wasn't replicated. The concept hasn't found favour in the UK because few operators own their own bus station so installing charging infrastructure is a complicated process requiring local authority partnership which is probably not financially possible for many so UK operators favoured models with sufficient range to do a full range on one charge. The fact these Volvos were on a 7 year finance contract may explain why their batteries weren't replaced last year when they probably should have been due which causes some issues with how they are perceived. Because of that opportunity charging aspect there are probably few potential buyers if Transdev aren't going to keep them, the finance company would probably replace the batteries if they are selling them on as happened with some hybrids that were sold, as only Birmingham Airport & Stagecoach in Kilmarnock bought this model and only Go-Ahead have since bought similar products (the Irizars in London & Dartford also opportunity charge) - due to the opportunity charging smaller batteries are fitted that can only do 80 miles or so I think new and I'm not sure that design was ever intended to have full day range batteries so may not be able to retrofit even if you removed the pantograph equipment. There is no reason to think that if Transdev just arranged for the replacement of the batteries they couldn't last another 6 years without any extra issues but if Transdev have more electrics than they need due to service reductions since the Mercs were ordered it makes some sense to not extend the lease of non-standard vehicles to 'right-size' the fleet.
Actually 4 - what has been tracking as 804 was 1020 - it got corrected this morning after 804 had apparently been empty to Leeds, back on the 7 and the a full return on the 7! Good quote from a member of Transdevs staff on Facebook re 804s apparent exploits on Route 1 yesterday that it might manage a round trip but with "the current roadworks I'm not sure it would actually complete a trip without running out..."
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Paul Turner has confirmed on Facebook the lease arrangement and maintenance contracts for the Volvo Electrics both end in October. Comments replacements will arrive in November - cue speculation.
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Ashly_Jethro
Member
I don’t think much speculation will be required, seems obvious that they’ll have bolstered onto the shuttle order for some extra vehicles for Harrogate
stevieinselby
Established Member
Assuming tracking is accurate, none of the Harrogate Volvo 7900Es have been out today.
Out of the rest of the fleet, including the two demonstrators, they have had 5 of the new electric/hybrids resting, and the only two diesels on the road were on the 59 and 21. With the 59 being a Saturday-only diagram, I can understand why they are using a school bus for it, but I'm still not sure why the 21 has been downgraded from electric back to knackeredy old diesel.
Out of the rest of the fleet, including the two demonstrators, they have had 5 of the new electric/hybrids resting, and the only two diesels on the road were on the 59 and 21. With the 59 being a Saturday-only diagram, I can understand why they are using a school bus for it, but I'm still not sure why the 21 has been downgraded from electric back to knackeredy old diesel.
Leedsbusman
Member
That sounds very much like speculation
Since the timetable change Irwell Line 481/483 routes now interwork with each other in Bury and also some 483s interwork with 8 Burnley-Bacup service meaning more vehicles are needed for the routes so more of a variety can be seen on the routes now.
There's also one weekday duty that comes off a School in the morning which means deckers are making more of a regular appearance on Irwell Line than what they used to do.
There's also one weekday duty that comes off a School in the morning which means deckers are making more of a regular appearance on Irwell Line than what they used to do.
If theres enough eCitaros etc, on Saturdays to work the 2,3,4 and 6 its been common for them not use the 7900Es. Harrogate is full of road works and the limited range of the 7900Es could be an issue at congested times.
They have to use a Volvo Starbus on the 59, now all the Geminis have left Starbeck, as whilst a ADL 400E could work the service the Dalesbus contract requires a seating capacity larger than the electrics have,
It was confirmed on Facebook that once the X98/X99 ended that 1837, being in fine fettle, would be used on the 21 or 727H. 1838 is supposedly to do the same but needs a repair.
stevieinselby
Established Member
If the route is busy enough that it needs not just a double-decker but a high-capacity double-decker then it strikes me as slightly odd that it needs to be run under contract and that it isn't a commercially viable proposition!
Dwarfer1979
Member
There may be any number of issues meaning it isn't commercial, particularly as it only runs on Saturdays, but I suspect the underlying cause would be the route has a high proportion of concessionary travellers and I believe, at least in the past and I assume it hasn't changed, North Yorkshire has a particularly poor reimbursement rate so it is entirely possible to lose money on a full bus especially if you are having to run big double-deckers to deal with that capacity using 2 or even 3 times the fuel that a single-decker would (one of those big Scania OmniDekkas compared to an medium sized E200MMC or Solo could hit 4mpg vs 12mpg though one of the Volvo singles is probably not much more than 8mpg though this is a bit best case single vs worst case double).
When free concessionary passes first came in I was working down on the South Coast and the reimbursement rate in Hampshire was particularly poor and it was reported that Wilts & Dorset were running full buses across the New Forest and losing money on them because so many were pensioners going out for the day because the bus was free which resulted in long standing core hourly commercial services being withdrawn and replaced by a lower frequency partial link.
No doubt its the same for all the other double decker worked Dalebus bus services that a minimum seating capacity is specified in the contract, which is more than 54 (the seating caopacity of the ADL400Es) but no greater than 67 (the capacity of the Geminis formally used on the 59). Using a 86 seater bus therefore is not neccessary but that is all Starbeck currently have available. The service was not viable when they tried to run it commercially and no other operator has attempted it.
Bristol LHS
Member
Like other Dales Bus routes, I suspect loadings on the 59 are highly variable dependent on the weather. You could fill an Omnidekka with concessionary fares on a summer Saturday, but I’ve also been one of half a dozen on it on a rainy Saturday in July. Given the frequency of the route and the inconvenient alternatives, it’s worth having that capacity in the bank rather than leaving folks behind. The views from a decker are also a selling point that Dales Bus emphasise.
Leedsbusman
Member
It’s also a ‘one hit’, I believe only one departure each way loads more than a single and pretty much no seat churn and you won’t earn enough revenue from that to make it commercial. After all most school buses are fully loaded double deckers but very few are commercially viable.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Single deckers only find themselves on the 59 when the winds are deemed too high for a double decker to be used along the A59. This has lead to an eCitaro being used on the 59 on at least one occasion. Otherwise its always a decker.
MCRTransitYT
Member
Chaos in north west Harrogate this morning into early afternoon with Skipton Road closed outbound due to roadworks, already meaning the 4 having to divert, only for a crash to block Jennyfield Drive and the route of the 3 as well as the diverted 4. 801 on an inbound 3 diverted onto the inbound open Skipton Road while 1010 on an outbound 3 had to reverse and turn round. The driver of 806 on a 4 must have received a message as that bus merely did a loop of the town centre. Therafter an hourly 4 operated outbound via the A61 to Killinghall and back on the B6161 with, on the return, a loop of what part of the 3 route was passable. That was it appears apart from 1130 as it looks like B7RLE 1837 failed having only worked the 727H school service prior to that. Normal service was restored just before 2pm.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Does anyone know if the 'SWITCH' ticket In Harrogate has been continued into September? I remember it being mentioned as a trial through August but haven't seen anything since...
Its been made permanent