Tram-trains, the future of our rail network?

[D365]

Shame we couldn't have had a tram/train for St. Ives to Cambridge

Yes please!

Ive got hope that that will improve soon enough. (decade) with 2tph EMU TPE, electric spine possibly providing electric freight, IEP making more use of the wires (Ignoring the fact i hate bi mode IEP) :P. Plus further on cross country becoming electrified....

But as it stands, yes very underused 4 track electrification north of York!!!

Yes please!


Would a tram-train adaptation be suitable replacement for T&W Metrocars in the future? If built with 25kV capability, this would enable the Durham Coast Line to be electrified at mainline standard.

 

[deltabravo]

I personally think the Hogwarts Express should be conveted to Tram-Train

 

[Rhydgaled]

It was. But from what I saw, it was pushed into the middle of CP6 for completion - something that people suggesting that there's still plenty of scope for *additional* wiring in CP5 don't seem to have realised.

Personally, I guessed the reason Hull was left off the announced Trans-Pennine electrification in HLOS was that the presently announced electrification works were all they could manage by end of 2019. Shame if they can't even manage that and the Midland Main Line project has slipped to CP6. There is however the mention of wiring studies for Westbury and Hull in the Jan2013 issue of Modern Railways, with a completion date of 2016 (which seems too far away to be the date they expect to finish the study, and too soon for it to actually be completion of electrification, unless Hull and Westbury have replaced the MML project)

The fact that the ambitions of CP5 are unlikely to be realised within CP5 suggests to me that we should start thinking about the reality of the situation (e.g. the "wire everything up" alternative to bi-mode IEP is a non starter, there's even less chance of sufficient EMUs freeing up Pacers by 31 December 2019).

Let's assume for a moment that all the anounced projects can be done by end of 2019. With Hull and Westbury under consideration, if they are done right at the begining of CP6, along with Bristol - Weston-S.-M. and Swindon - Cheltenham they could be wired up by 2022/23. If we assume IEP delivery in 2016, with the exception of the Cotswolds line you'd need bi-mode for all of 6/7 years (and there's only 7 or 8 trains a day beyond the wires on the East Coast franchise anyway).

Better to use IC125s/180s under the wires to Bristol, Swindon and Newbury (on Westbury, Weston-S.-M. and Cheltenham runs) for 6 years and then introduce electric trains than to introduce IEPs at over twice the cost of Pendolinos and not have wires to Cheltenham and Westbury for 30 years (I don't believe anyone will make a case for electrifying Swindon - Chelteham and throwing away the IEP's 6-year old £400k underfloor diesel enignes if the IEPs are built and you'd have to throw millions more to clear the XC network if you wanted to cascade the IEPs and keep their diesel engines).

 

[yorksrob]

I must admit, I don't really see the point of Bi-mode IEP. Once the MML and GWML are wired, it's only cross country infill and the West of England mainline of the Inter-City routes that need wires (I admit there are some north of Edinburgh, but for the number of trains that actually continue, you may as well have a loco change), and surely you could keep IC125's and DEMU's going Westward until the MML and GWML are finished.

If you think about it, West of England has local trains for most of the route towards Westbury which could go electric, and all along the mainline from Exeter to Penzance, you have local trains as well as Intercity ones from the North and London which could also go electric. Penzance seems a better case for wiring than a lot of the more self contained local routes.

 

[tbtc]

I must admit, I don't really see the point of Bi-mode IEP. Once the MML and GWML are wired, it's only cross country infill and the West of England mainline of the Inter-City routes that need wires (I admit there are some north of Edinburgh, but for the number of trains that actually continue, you may as well have a loco change), and surely you could keep IC125's and DEMU's going Westward until the MML and GWML are finished

It's not just northern Scotland, what about Harrogate?

Hull?

Hereford/ Worcester?

Carmarthen?

It'll be a long time before these are all wired up. In fact, it'll be almost ten years until the MML is wired to Sheffield (without worrying about extending the wires to Moorthorpe/ Doncaster), and HSTs won't all last that long.

But we are getting off topic, and there are some IEP threads on here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Personally, I guessed the reason Hull was left off the announced Trans-Pennine electrification in HLOS was that the presently announced electrification works were all they could manage by end of 2019

That's the way that I see it - there are a lot of logical "follow on" sections for CP6 but they wouldn't have time to do everything before the end of 2019. One day...

 

[yorksrob]

It's not just northern Scotland, what about Harrogate?

Hull?

Hereford/ Worcester?

Carmarthen?

It'll be a long time before these are all wired up.

Certainly Hull should get wires as part of TPE anyway, and the Harrogate loop makes sense as an infill suburban route (and I think the powers that be might be coming round to the idea, once all the guff about tram trains and A stock clears). As for the others, are they really likely to get that many intercity trains ? It might be easier drag the odd one as is the case with pendolinos in Wales.

In fact, it'll be almost ten years until the MML is wired to Sheffield (without worrying about extending the wires to Moorthorpe/ Doncaster), and HSTs won't all last that long.

But we are getting off topic, and there are some IEP threads on here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


That's the way that I see it - there are a lot of logical "follow on" sections for CP6 but they wouldn't have time to do everything before the end of 2019. One day...

They seem to have decided that the HST's can last for Cornwall, plus there are a hell of a lot of newish DEMU's around anyway.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Hull is coming ahead as it looks like First Hull Trains are wanting to stump up some cash in return for some paths for 20 years!

 

[yorksrob]

Hull is coming ahead as it looks like First Hull Trains are wanting to stump up some cash in return for some paths for 20 years!

Indeed. If TPE gets wired, there really wouldn't be any point in not doing Hull

 

[D365]

Certainly Hull should get wires as part of TPE anyway, and the Harrogate loop makes sense as an infill suburban route (and I think the powers that be might be coming round to the idea, once all the guff about tram trains and A stock clears). As for the others, are they really likely to get that many intercity trains ? It might be easier drag the odd one as is the case with pendolinos in Wales.

The plan was D Stock as these are in pretty good shape. But the third rail appears to be DeaD in the water. Didn't make sense in the wider picture anyway.

They seem to have decided that the HSTs can last for Cornwall, plus there are a hell of a lot of newish DEMUs around anyway.

Yes Yes.

Hull is coming ahead as it looks like First Hull Trains are wanting to stump up some cash in return for some paths for 20 years!

Yes Yes. Perhaps they can tag some IEP onto East Coast.

 

[tbtc]

Certainly Hull should get wires as part of TPE anyway, and the Harrogate loop makes sense

Hull and Harrogate should be wired, but the fact that Sheffield electrification has already been delayed by a couple of years suggests that there's not going to be time to get Hull/ Harrogate etc wired up before HSTs really need to be replaced.

Ideally we'd wire everything up in CP5, but we don't have time.

They seem to have decided that the HST's can last for Cornwall

Yes, but I said "HSTs won't all last that long" - the best examples (mainly the youngest ones) will be kept for the Cornish routes, but the whole fleet won't last that long.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes, but I said "HSTs won't all last that long" - the best examples (mainly the youngest ones) will be kept for the Cornish routes, but the whole fleet won't last that long.

You can still retire a fair few IC125s in 2020 if you get the anounced wiring done by end 0f 2019 and keep some IC125s for XC plus some for Cheltenham, Hull and Harrogate for a few years, and you can replace the class 43s with new electric locos and DVTs once the wires do go up, mrk3s are supposedly good until 2035 aren't they?

 

[ainsworth74]

mrk3s are supposedly good until 2035 aren't they?

Theoretically, if you spend an unspecified amount on refurbishing them.

 

[tbtc]

mrk3s are supposedly good until 2035 aren't they?

Theoretically, if you spend an unspecified amount on refurbishing them.

Yes - some people have jumped on the 2035 figure as evidence that the HSTs will keep going on and on. The reality appears to be that that's the absolute best case scenario for the best HSTs to last until provided sufficient money is thrown at them. Quite different...

Throw enough money at Pacers and you could keep them running until after 2035!

 

[D365]

2035 is when surviving Mk3 shell structures will mysteriously dissolve, right?

Like 21/12/12? Or something.

 

[yorksrob]

Hull and Harrogate should be wired, but the fact that Sheffield electrification has already been delayed by a couple of years suggests that there's not going to be time to get Hull/ Harrogate etc wired up before HSTs really need to be replaced.

Ideally we'd wire everything up in CP5, but we don't have time.



Yes, but I said "HSTs won't all last that long" - the best examples (mainly the youngest ones) will be kept for the Cornish routes, but the whole fleet won't last that long.

Yeah, but it's a question of adjustment. I don't expect all 125's to last for 60 years, but they could always add a few more to the survivors where the need dictated.

When the midland mainline's electrified, there'll be several DEMU's to transfer elsewhere.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Throw enough money at Pacers and you could keep them running until after 2035!

A statement not to be read by those of a nervous disposition or suffering from high blood pressure.....

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Throw enough money at Pacers and you could keep them running until after 2035!

I do worry about you sometimes

 

[tbtc]

When the midland mainline's electrified, there'll be several DEMU's to transfer elsewhere

Given the failure to arrange "Project Thor" with Bombardier, I think we might as well just treat all 220/221/222s as "DMUs"

 

[sprinterguy]

Given the failure to arrange "Project Thor" with Bombardier, I think we might as well just treat all 220/221/222s as "DMUs"

They are DEMUs though, using an electric driver rather than mechanical transmission as DMUs in the 1xx series do - Although I suppose that we don't refer to those as "DMMUs".

 

[tbtc]

They are DEMUs though, using an electric driver rather than mechanical transmission as DMUs in the 1xx series do - Although I suppose that we don't refer to those as "DMMUs".

Sorry, I probably didn't explain myself - I was meaning that we might as well forget the idea of putting pantograph cars in them and just treat them as diesel trains (since I took yorksrob's comment about DEMUs to suggest running them as bi-more and therefore not requiring IEP)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What is the latest news about the Yorkshire tram-train trials ?

 

[yorksrob]

Sorry, I probably didn't explain myself - I was meaning that we might as well forget the idea of putting pantograph cars in them and just treat them as diesel trains (since I took yorksrob's comment about DEMUs to suggest running them as bi-more and therefore not requiring IEP)

Ah no, I was trying to be up to date and using the correct terminology. I was thinking of using them as present up until electrification of cross country & West of England to Penzance.

Although this is more my personal idea of DEMU travel:
http://www.hastingsdiesels.co.uk/

 

[northwichcat]

What is the latest news about the Yorkshire tram-train trials ?

The trial will take place from 2015-2017, exact dates TBC. Northern Rail issued an invitation to tender for 7 new DC tram-trains and that was awarded to Vossloh. However, the delay to the start date means the trial has been transferred from Northern Rail to Stagecoach Supertram partly because Northern Rail may not exist after April 2014. DC electrification of the rail line is being undertaken ahead of the tram-trains being delivered and presumably platform changes at Rotherham Central to allow for low floor tram-trains to depart from there. The trial will be a single phase involving both running on lines alongside freight and street running after the original 2 phase approach was dropped. Another poster on here stated that rail tickets for Rotherham-Sheffield will not be accepted on tram-trains but I haven't seen anything official relating to that.

 

[anthony263]

tram-trains would be good for certains routes along the Cardiff Valley Lines network.

A good example would be the Cardiff Queen Street - Cardiff Bay route where the route could be modified to allow on street running through to the sports villiage.

The coryton branch could be extended using on street running to serve a new park & ride site near Jct 32 of the M4.

The rest of the Valley Lines network would be better off staying as heavy rail routes due to the long journey times etc

 

[brompton rail]

The trial will take place from 2015-2017, exact dates TBC. Northern Rail issued an invitation to tender for 7 new DC tram-trains and that was awarded to Vossloh. However, the delay to the start date means the trial has been transferred from Northern Rail to Stagecoach Supertram partly because Northern Rail may not exist after April 2014. DC electrification of the rail line is being undertaken ahead of the tram-trains being delivered and presumably platform changes at Rotherham Central to allow for low floor tram-trains to depart from there. The trial will be a single phase involving both running on lines alongside freight and street running after the original 2 phase approach was dropped. Another poster on here stated that rail tickets for Rotherham-Sheffield will not be accepted on tram-trains but I haven't seen anything official relating to that.

That is likely as rail tickets Sheffield to Meadowhall are not valid on the tram now. Any tram journey would involve a change at Fitzallen Square anyway.

However the PTE have other tickets that would be valid on both systems, like Travelmaster (buses, trams and trains).

 

[northwichcat]

That is likely as rail tickets Sheffield to Meadowhall are not valid on the tram now. Any tram journey would involve a change at Fitzallen Square anyway.

However the PTE have other tickets that would be valid on both systems, like Travelmaster (buses, trams and trains).

Tram-trains are supposed to help join up public transport systems though so interchangeable ticketing arrangements between Rotherham-Sheffield trains and tram-trains would help achieve that aim better.